An end to 'modified' cars?
Discussion
How does it work in Germany? In the past , approx 30years ago it was totally restricted, you could do nothing in the way of modification not even swap out a wood rimmed steering wheel or an alloy wheel, there were exceptions and they have been exploited over the years until today it is possible to register a hot-rod ,street-machine or modified special. It has been an evolving situation brought on by the brave youngsters driving Cobra kits on log books of 4door Grenada’s. Swapping out the 1275 power unit from their Mk 1 mini every time it came due for the test. Due to public pressure the procedures have been softened /relaxed etc over the years also originally all vehicles had to visit a Gov’t test station but the waiting time became excessive as the authorities were overpowered by demand.
When this situation became intolerable, selected private businesses were called on to operate via aTUV inspector visiting by appointment for example one designated day per week in a small town, this relieved the pressure but did not take away any of the complications .If the car was a stock Eurobox or a modified car with all the mods written up in the title then you were OK but if everything did not “jell” he would refer you to the higher authority.
Modifications are allowed but are strictly controlled and sometimes impossible simply because you are outside the main stream and no one considers that component a viable proposition to make ,it all comes down to money , you cannot use “off-road only” parts. How does it work? The part is supplied via an approved dealer who provides a certificate of approval (GUTACHTEN) or ABE cert which will have a TUV serial no xxxxx; you’re required to deliver the cert to the vehicle inspectorate with the car where the details will be electronically entered into the data-base and title documents (fahrzeugbrief).with a fee of approx 50/100 per item There is also a hefty fine for failing to do so (beware they are after your money again) now for the problem bit that you need to understand.
Take an alloy wheel which comes in 10,12 13, 14 and 15inch dia with various offsets and bolt PCD’s each application has to be approved in its own right. Make &model (year of manu) specified on the ABE cert and is not transferable. By that I mean just because a FORD can interchange with a Rootes product does not mean it is allowed., even on the same maker for example Talbot Sunbeam-Lotus versus Talbot 1600 Super. And every wheel has to be serialized to stop fiddling. Just imagine the complication for a maker like “compomotive” with three piece rims adjustable from 4-5 to 16 in increments of half an inch and variable off-sets their cost to achieve compliance would be astronomical so it is not likely to happen.
The approval test costs are adjusted to multi million budgets of conglomerate facilities or Gov’t departments so the maker pays all these charges on top of manufacturing costs, plus overheads then amortizes this figure across a speculated sales expectancy and adds this onto the purchasers bill, plus VAT, consequently the special exhaust that originally cost 500 now costs 1500/2000plus VAT and this applies across the board:-more later . Have a nice day!!
PS In a little while I will post more info on the tests & kit-cars but am only an old fart that does one finger typing.
When this situation became intolerable, selected private businesses were called on to operate via aTUV inspector visiting by appointment for example one designated day per week in a small town, this relieved the pressure but did not take away any of the complications .If the car was a stock Eurobox or a modified car with all the mods written up in the title then you were OK but if everything did not “jell” he would refer you to the higher authority.
Modifications are allowed but are strictly controlled and sometimes impossible simply because you are outside the main stream and no one considers that component a viable proposition to make ,it all comes down to money , you cannot use “off-road only” parts. How does it work? The part is supplied via an approved dealer who provides a certificate of approval (GUTACHTEN) or ABE cert which will have a TUV serial no xxxxx; you’re required to deliver the cert to the vehicle inspectorate with the car where the details will be electronically entered into the data-base and title documents (fahrzeugbrief).with a fee of approx 50/100 per item There is also a hefty fine for failing to do so (beware they are after your money again) now for the problem bit that you need to understand.
Take an alloy wheel which comes in 10,12 13, 14 and 15inch dia with various offsets and bolt PCD’s each application has to be approved in its own right. Make &model (year of manu) specified on the ABE cert and is not transferable. By that I mean just because a FORD can interchange with a Rootes product does not mean it is allowed., even on the same maker for example Talbot Sunbeam-Lotus versus Talbot 1600 Super. And every wheel has to be serialized to stop fiddling. Just imagine the complication for a maker like “compomotive” with three piece rims adjustable from 4-5 to 16 in increments of half an inch and variable off-sets their cost to achieve compliance would be astronomical so it is not likely to happen.
The approval test costs are adjusted to multi million budgets of conglomerate facilities or Gov’t departments so the maker pays all these charges on top of manufacturing costs, plus overheads then amortizes this figure across a speculated sales expectancy and adds this onto the purchasers bill, plus VAT, consequently the special exhaust that originally cost 500 now costs 1500/2000plus VAT and this applies across the board:-more later . Have a nice day!!
PS In a little while I will post more info on the tests & kit-cars but am only an old fart that does one finger typing.
it's just that sort of process that copuld be the outcome of this draft - that's what comes to mind when "testing to ensure a modification conforms to safety or environmental requirements", with the added complication of doing this in the manner of the time at which the vehicle was first used.
Breadvan72 said:
The member state is allowed by the proposal to apply national legislation to set requirements, 2woody. That could allow a form of business as usual, subject to the minima prescribed by the Regulation.
so, I think we're coming to a concensus in that the problem area is only how the testing is to be conducted and to what extent.Breadvan72 said:
In the case of ye olde jalopies, the relevant standard at the time when first used may have been zip all, so that's not a hard test, is it?
exactly the point I made a few pages ago.Life could be much harder for ye half-olde jalopies, where there were well-defined requirements.
Reply to 2Woody,
FURTHER APPROVAL: - let me relate my experience of that term in layman’s language: - Suppose you had Triumph TR 6 with a rotted out fuel tank, you find it is no longer available from any known source, so no problem you just nip down to your mate who happens to make aeroplanes and is an A.I.D certified welder, he knocks you one up in aviation quality alloy for a few quid.and you are a happy bunny. Off down to the test station where the inspector looks at you all funny like, well sir we have a problem , you see we consider that a fuel tank is a pressure vessel as this one is not type approved, firstly you will require to get it tested and approved by a TUV appointed pressure testing specialist .
Grab the phone/or PC, Hell, they seem to all be ships boiler makers ,armourment contractors , nuclear power station parts suppliers or university engineering labs and all have one thing in common :- they operate on budgets of millions. Eventually you come across a very small shop that makes much the same type of tank for the military and will supply one to you, only your newly made tank is trash he only certifies his own product, but first you must obtain a proper workshop technical drawing. Hell , here we go again ,find someone that does not want an arm & leg to produce an acceptable drawing , You have to get one for the inspector anyway so hang the cost you have got to have it . Now hold on there!! Because this is a new fitting it will have to comply with the latest emission regs and have an approved vapour breather system and type /app filler cap. OH Hell I could go on with this epistle but you must have got the message by now. The tank cost nearly as much as the car, yes you can get further approval but would you want too. ( this is a real experience no joking )
FURTHER APPROVAL: - let me relate my experience of that term in layman’s language: - Suppose you had Triumph TR 6 with a rotted out fuel tank, you find it is no longer available from any known source, so no problem you just nip down to your mate who happens to make aeroplanes and is an A.I.D certified welder, he knocks you one up in aviation quality alloy for a few quid.and you are a happy bunny. Off down to the test station where the inspector looks at you all funny like, well sir we have a problem , you see we consider that a fuel tank is a pressure vessel as this one is not type approved, firstly you will require to get it tested and approved by a TUV appointed pressure testing specialist .
Grab the phone/or PC, Hell, they seem to all be ships boiler makers ,armourment contractors , nuclear power station parts suppliers or university engineering labs and all have one thing in common :- they operate on budgets of millions. Eventually you come across a very small shop that makes much the same type of tank for the military and will supply one to you, only your newly made tank is trash he only certifies his own product, but first you must obtain a proper workshop technical drawing. Hell , here we go again ,find someone that does not want an arm & leg to produce an acceptable drawing , You have to get one for the inspector anyway so hang the cost you have got to have it . Now hold on there!! Because this is a new fitting it will have to comply with the latest emission regs and have an approved vapour breather system and type /app filler cap. OH Hell I could go on with this epistle but you must have got the message by now. The tank cost nearly as much as the car, yes you can get further approval but would you want too. ( this is a real experience no joking )
I had a 1972/3 Lotus that had aluminium tanks fitted without difficulty, but maybe I was just lucky.
You appear to be describing a problem under the present system. 2woody's observations may suggest that things might in some respects become easier under the new rules if they go through. Note that I said "might" and "in some respects".
You appear to be describing a problem under the present system. 2woody's observations may suggest that things might in some respects become easier under the new rules if they go through. Note that I said "might" and "in some respects".
rolymo said:
Reply to 2Woody,
FURTHER APPROVAL: - let me relate my experience of that term in layman’s language: - Suppose you had Triumph TR 6 with a rotted out fuel tank, you find it is no longer available from any known source, so no problem you just nip down to your mate who happens to make aeroplanes and is an A.I.D certified welder, he knocks you one up in aviation quality alloy for a few quid.and you are a happy bunny. Off down to the test station where the inspector looks at you all funny like, well sir we have a problem , you see we consider that a fuel tank is a pressure vessel as this one is not type approved, firstly you will require to get it tested and approved by a TUV appointed pressure testing specialist .
Grab the phone/or PC, Hell, they seem to all be ships boiler makers ,armourment contractors , nuclear power station parts suppliers or university engineering labs and all have one thing in common :- they operate on budgets of millions. Eventually you come across a very small shop that makes much the same type of tank for the military and will supply one to you, only your newly made tank is trash he only certifies his own product, but first you must obtain a proper workshop technical drawing. Hell , here we go again ,find someone that does not want an arm & leg to produce an acceptable drawing , You have to get one for the inspector anyway so hang the cost you have got to have it . Now hold on there!! Because this is a new fitting it will have to comply with the latest emission regs and have an approved vapour breather system and type /app filler cap. OH Hell I could go on with this epistle but you must have got the message by now. The tank cost nearly as much as the car, yes you can get further approval but would you want too. ( this is a real experience no joking )
That's an incredibly worrying scenario, as traditionally I've always fabricated all manner of such components myself.FURTHER APPROVAL: - let me relate my experience of that term in layman’s language: - Suppose you had Triumph TR 6 with a rotted out fuel tank, you find it is no longer available from any known source, so no problem you just nip down to your mate who happens to make aeroplanes and is an A.I.D certified welder, he knocks you one up in aviation quality alloy for a few quid.and you are a happy bunny. Off down to the test station where the inspector looks at you all funny like, well sir we have a problem , you see we consider that a fuel tank is a pressure vessel as this one is not type approved, firstly you will require to get it tested and approved by a TUV appointed pressure testing specialist .
Grab the phone/or PC, Hell, they seem to all be ships boiler makers ,armourment contractors , nuclear power station parts suppliers or university engineering labs and all have one thing in common :- they operate on budgets of millions. Eventually you come across a very small shop that makes much the same type of tank for the military and will supply one to you, only your newly made tank is trash he only certifies his own product, but first you must obtain a proper workshop technical drawing. Hell , here we go again ,find someone that does not want an arm & leg to produce an acceptable drawing , You have to get one for the inspector anyway so hang the cost you have got to have it . Now hold on there!! Because this is a new fitting it will have to comply with the latest emission regs and have an approved vapour breather system and type /app filler cap. OH Hell I could go on with this epistle but you must have got the message by now. The tank cost nearly as much as the car, yes you can get further approval but would you want too. ( this is a real experience no joking )
OH, you are so smart buddy, ring them up and ask if it comes with certified TUV certificate of approval and how often they run out of stock and have to wait for a new batch to be manufactered, I have waited 8 months in the past for delivery and all that time the car is stuck in my workshop (rent free)
rolymo, if you are as acerbic in real life as you are here, may I suggest that you perhaps aren't the best person to join any consultation or discussion group on this subject which seeks to lobby the DfT. Diplomacy, tact, and persuasion work better than telling people that they are ignorant. I don't mind you telling me that I know nothing, but a DfT rep might not take to being lectured.
rolymo said:
OH, you are so smart buddy, ring them up and ask if it comes with certified TUV certificate of approval and how often they run out of stock and have to wait for a new batch to be manufactered, I have waited 8 months in the past for delivery and all that time the car is stuck in my workshop (rent free)
I wasn't trying to be smart, I was trying to be helpful. You said it wasn't available anywhere in the world. I think if you rang me up with that response, I'd be out of stock too. Please don’t shoot the messenger!! Breadvan 72. I have no wish to win any popularity contests or become anyone’s self appointed spokesman and certainly not join any EU consultation group, simply because I am way passed my “ sell by date” and retired , but what I do have is a life time of experience as a professional auto engineer and business proprietor in England, Germany and the USA which I would pass on in the hope that it will enlighten ,assist and educate many people that I consider are in considerably danger of losing a very important part of their hobby, income or business investment.
If you consider my input is inappropriate I will gracefully withdraw, “cease and desist “or In my lingo :-
Sit down and shut up.
If you consider my input is inappropriate I will gracefully withdraw, “cease and desist “or In my lingo :-
Sit down and shut up.
The non-crisis has been averted and the children can be safe:
http://pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&...
http://pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&...
LuS1fer said:
The non-crisis has been averted and the children can be safe:
http://pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&...
I can sleep safe now.http://pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&...
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