RE: The Toyota GT86 is more relevant than ever: TMIW
Discussion
M-SportMatt said:
venquessa said:
Correct and someone driving a GT86 is probably not going to be interested in what a 320d can do. I'm sure there are exceptions.
He was caring quite a bit trying to show me how fast he was.......he was clearly a bell end but my point is doubly proven, it was nowhere in a straight line against a 'boring repmobile'Granted he may take the next island like a ballerina on tiptoes but after a few miles of that with a queue of diesel insignias hassling him to get past it must get boring, especially at that price.
If it had another 70bhp or so and was around 23k from the online discounters like broadspeed it would be a much more interesting proposition.
I bet they will be a popular used buy in 5 years when there's a few available at attractive money
Gary C said:
Why would anyone care that your car can be out dragged by a diesel rep mobile ?, I mean really, why does it matter ?
Because if i'm being asked by Toyota to pay £28k for one, i'd like to think it would have a bit of performance to back up the stiff asking price.Somewhere along the line, Toyota UK have decided they can ask an extra £6,000 or so for a GT86 than relatively speaking Toyota AUS and Toyota JPN ask in their markets. In those markets they're a couple of thousand more than an entry level MX5 or Fiesta ST at most.
Its price relative to its performance just doesnt stack up.
£19,995 i'd happily buzz along in one. £28K and diesel repmobiles out dragging me... not so much.
M-SportMatt said:
Joining this late.
My thoughts are that they appeal, but as a practical every day car not really as im married with a child on the way.
As a weekend car, too pricey, can have a used MX5/Boxter/350z/370z or similar for a LOT less
Its not fast enough. Only last night on the way home from work I had one up my tailpipe on a bit of DC, I pulled in to take a slip, he then barrels past and forces his way in in front of me so as we both pull off the slip at around 35-40mph onto another DC I can see him itching to make progress but I get over to the right first and let him have it full throttle, so a side by side rolling start and he's left trailing by a good margin........in my 5 year old 320d with roofbars and bike on top, auto, not in sport mode.
I'd have thought he'd have been able to muster a better effort.
If its that slow and all about slightly undertyred fun i'd rather an MX-5 with a hardtop thanks
Do you really believe in this story?My thoughts are that they appeal, but as a practical every day car not really as im married with a child on the way.
As a weekend car, too pricey, can have a used MX5/Boxter/350z/370z or similar for a LOT less
Its not fast enough. Only last night on the way home from work I had one up my tailpipe on a bit of DC, I pulled in to take a slip, he then barrels past and forces his way in in front of me so as we both pull off the slip at around 35-40mph onto another DC I can see him itching to make progress but I get over to the right first and let him have it full throttle, so a side by side rolling start and he's left trailing by a good margin........in my 5 year old 320d with roofbars and bike on top, auto, not in sport mode.
I'd have thought he'd have been able to muster a better effort.
If its that slow and all about slightly undertyred fun i'd rather an MX-5 with a hardtop thanks
LasseV said:
M-SportMatt said:
Joining this late.
My thoughts are that they appeal, but as a practical every day car not really as im married with a child on the way.
As a weekend car, too pricey, can have a used MX5/Boxter/350z/370z or similar for a LOT less
Its not fast enough. Only last night on the way home from work I had one up my tailpipe on a bit of DC, I pulled in to take a slip, he then barrels past and forces his way in in front of me so as we both pull off the slip at around 35-40mph onto another DC I can see him itching to make progress but I get over to the right first and let him have it full throttle, so a side by side rolling start and he's left trailing by a good margin........in my 5 year old 320d with roofbars and bike on top, auto, not in sport mode.
I'd have thought he'd have been able to muster a better effort.
If its that slow and all about slightly undertyred fun i'd rather an MX-5 with a hardtop thanks
Do you really believe in this story?My thoughts are that they appeal, but as a practical every day car not really as im married with a child on the way.
As a weekend car, too pricey, can have a used MX5/Boxter/350z/370z or similar for a LOT less
Its not fast enough. Only last night on the way home from work I had one up my tailpipe on a bit of DC, I pulled in to take a slip, he then barrels past and forces his way in in front of me so as we both pull off the slip at around 35-40mph onto another DC I can see him itching to make progress but I get over to the right first and let him have it full throttle, so a side by side rolling start and he's left trailing by a good margin........in my 5 year old 320d with roofbars and bike on top, auto, not in sport mode.
I'd have thought he'd have been able to muster a better effort.
If its that slow and all about slightly undertyred fun i'd rather an MX-5 with a hardtop thanks
daemon said:
DoubleD said:
venquessa said:
Not everyone has taste.
You mean different people have different tasteDifferent taste, different requirements, different perspective.
On the other hand, the car has never been £28k. Price lists are meaningless. The market dictates the price and rapidly corrected it when 6-month old / nominal mileage cars were selling for £21k. Pretty gentle depreciation from there on.
It seems to me that if Toyota had simply changed a couple of little things, they could have made it much better. Namely, shorter gearing for punchier acceleration and to keep the car on the boil, and get rid of the flat spot. Then maybe also work on giving the engine a good induction roar. Even without adding more power, I suspect a lot more people would have been happy with this?
Personally, I quite like them, but these things would certainly put me off for this price, and if I owned one, then I definitely would have to go out and do these things. However, when it costs circa £25K to begin with, the last thing I want to be doing is spending several more grand on putting right what should have been done out of the box (not to mention invalidating the warranty!).
Personally, I quite like them, but these things would certainly put me off for this price, and if I owned one, then I definitely would have to go out and do these things. However, when it costs circa £25K to begin with, the last thing I want to be doing is spending several more grand on putting right what should have been done out of the box (not to mention invalidating the warranty!).
TameRacingDriver said:
It seems to me that if Toyota had simply changed a couple of little things, they could have made it much better. Namely, shorter gearing for punchier acceleration and to keep the car on the boil, and get rid of the flat spot. Then maybe also work on giving the engine a good induction roar. Even without adding more power, I suspect a lot more people would have been happy with this?
Personally, I quite like them, but these things would certainly put me off for this price, and if I owned one, then I definitely would have to go out and do these things. However, when it costs circa £25K to begin with, the last thing I want to be doing is spending several more grand on putting right what should have been done out of the box (not to mention invalidating the warranty!).
+1Personally, I quite like them, but these things would certainly put me off for this price, and if I owned one, then I definitely would have to go out and do these things. However, when it costs circa £25K to begin with, the last thing I want to be doing is spending several more grand on putting right what should have been done out of the box (not to mention invalidating the warranty!).
Hudson said:
Show me another car that can cause 10 pages of arguments? That's a selling point by itself 
People get waaaaay too worked up over the little toyobaru. It's going to be fought over once it's sub 10k for drifting. 86 renaissance!
By virtue of the fact that so many people talk about them, but so few buy them, it does suggest something is wrong that it doesnt sell well.People get waaaaay too worked up over the little toyobaru. It's going to be fought over once it's sub 10k for drifting. 86 renaissance!
daemon said:
By virtue of the fact that so many people talk about them, but so few buy them, it does suggest something is wrong that it doesnt sell well.
So why don't we have threads like this about 370Zs (for example)? They've been mentioned numerous times in this thread yet they sell way less of them than GT86's but people seem to get particularly worked up over these.You can also get cars less than a year old for under £21k... If price really is your limiting factor then why not buy one of those? Example
daemon said:
Gary C said:
Why would anyone care that your car can be out dragged by a diesel rep mobile ?, I mean really, why does it matter ?
Because if i'm being asked by Toyota to pay £28k for one, i'd like to think it would have a bit of performance to back up the stiff asking price.Somewhere along the line, Toyota UK have decided they can ask an extra £6,000 or so for a GT86 than relatively speaking Toyota AUS and Toyota JPN ask in their markets. In those markets they're a couple of thousand more than an entry level MX5 or Fiesta ST at most.
Its price relative to its performance just doesnt stack up.
£19,995 i'd happily buzz along in one. £28K and diesel repmobiles out dragging me... not so much.
doogle83 said:
daemon said:
By virtue of the fact that so many people talk about them, but so few buy them, it does suggest something is wrong that it doesnt sell well.
So why don't we have threads like this about 370Zs (for example)? They've been mentioned numerous times in this thread yet they sell way less of them than GT86's but people seem to get particularly worked up over these.You can also get cars less than a year old for under £21k... If price really is your limiting factor then why not buy one of those? Example
doogle83 said:
So why don't we have threads like this about 370Zs (for example)? They've been mentioned numerous times in this thread yet they sell way less of them than GT86's but people seem to get particularly worked up over these.
Because 370Z owners dont seem to practically wet themselves when non converts criticise it. It would be like "well a 370Z is too heavy, the engine doesnt sound as good as it should, Nissan charge too much for it, its a pig to tax" and 370Z owners would be like "Yup".
doogle83 said:
You can also get cars less than a year old for under £21k... If price really is your limiting factor then why not buy one of those?
Because then you'd be buying a year old car, not a new one?Its too expensive new.
Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd June 23:17
Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd June 23:18
DoubleD said:
I presume that its down to disappointment in what should be a good product. From reviews that ive read, they appear to have got so much right with the car, then badly failed with a very poor engine. And the engine seems to be poor due to more than just a lack of power.
Thats how i feel about the GT86. Disappointment. As i've said, we've form for them having owned RWD low slung coupes for over 5 of the last ten years. We also bought a new Celica and MR2 back in the day before they stopped making them. daemon said:
doogle83 said:
So why don't we have threads like this about 370Zs (for example)? They've been mentioned numerous times in this thread yet they sell way less of them than GT86's but people seem to get particularly worked up over these.
Because 370Z owners dont seem to practically wet themselves when non converts criticise it. It would be like "well a 370Z is too heavy, the engine doesnt sound as good as it should, Nissan charge too much for it, its a pig to tax" and 370Z owners would be like "Yup".
Distraxi said:
Isn't pretty much this whole thread non converts being like "well a GT86 is slow, the engine doesn't sound as good as it should, Toyota charge too much for it", and GT86 owners being like "Yup. Doesn't matter because fun." Followed by the non converts wetting themselvesone man endlessly wetting himself about the sheer horror of maybe being out-dragged by a 320D?
subtle change. 
I was out watching a hill climb event in the sun yesterday. As I watched the cars it occurred to me that in the grand scheme of things only about 10% of them were actually fast cars. Yet all of them were sports/racing/specialist/classic cars and all of them making some good progress up the hill. There was 10 second difference between the cars (excluding the very old classics and those not taking it seriously). Do you really think the ones who took 10 seconds longer over a 35 second climb went home butt hurt and sad? I very much doubt it. I'd love to drive an old mini or MkI up that hill for fun. Not even the Elises were in the top 10.
I think a lot of people have a miss-conception that sports cars have to be fast, when history has proven this to be false far more times than it has proven it to be true. People still drive original mini's (not even sports cars) which are very slow, why? People still drive MkI and MkII escorts with original engines, why? People still drive migets and MGBs etc. Why? People race fiestas that even when fully race tuned are slower than an 86... why? Maybe because it's not just about speed but about fun, enjoyment, handling, style.
The GT86 - in my motorsport fan of many years outlook - is set to become a classic sports car. When you line it up with other classic sports cars of the last 100 years it fits right in and would hold it's own against at least half of them. A 320D will not be in that list and is ultimately destined for the crusher instead of restoration. Super cars are a different thing entirely and I'm really deliberately not including repmobile classics, though older M3 do make an appearance in motorsport events. (though there is the local guy with the stock looking mental hospital green Granada with a 6 litre holden V8, twin turbo and 700bhp who you can hear from a mile away as it pops, crackles and bangs while shredding tyres for breakfast).... funny thing is, it's no where near competitive, I wonder why? Maybe because it's a wallowing barge.
The price thing. We have been here before. When you put your 25-28k in your pocket and go to buy a sports car brand new the options filter down to MX5, 370Z, GT86 and even at that the 370Z is actually more money. Engine aside, it has really nice seats, touch screen, bluetooth, 8 speakers, dual zone climate control and aircon, cruise control, heated seats, electric folding mirrors, multi-mode driver safety aids, HID Zenon headlights, LED tail lights, DRLs.... and so on and so on. It pretty much has ever mod-con of the 2012 era as standard. Also has a torsional LSD as standard which makes it a lot of fun once you get the diff to lock up. As to the interior quality... it's a Subaru. That doesn't even begin to touch on the little details which certainly add to the appeal. Perfectly positioned driving position, knee pads to rest against when under high cornering load, the fact it was designed to fit 4 wheels, spare brakes and a jack in the boot. The fact the roof was raised to allow comfortable room for a helmet. The fact you can touch the steering, gear stick and handbrake at the same time with the same hand (unless your are Donald Trump). There are better cars yes, there are probably better dragging cars for the same money, there are probably better cars S/H for the money, but in my view it's hard to find a better sports car new for the money, especially if you want at least some practicality which promptly kills the 370Z and MX5 dead.
The engine thing. We have been here before. It's a 2.0 NA engine. On the new market there aren't many (any?) 2.0 NA engines that deliver that kind of performance anymore. Toyubaru could have FI'd it, but there are reasons why you want to keep an engine NA. Price, response, insurance cost, fuel cost, emissions, weight. A turbo'd 86 would probably retail at 4-5k higher. Tada San specifically stated they want to keep it NA and give the end buyer the option to turbo it if they wished.
It's not about peak power either. I've driven cars with higher peak power sure, but they just didn't deliver it in as useful, fun and engaging way. TDIs for example you have to wait on them, then it all comes in one lump. None of these cars are specifically designed to go fast round bends for fun. They are designed to haul their fat ass up onto a motorway and then cruise with the family in the back. The 86's engine is lurchy, sharp, near instant response and loves to be trashed till it bounces off the limiter.
I'm not convinced the 320d could out drag the 86 if the 86 was in capable hands. I have read people on the owners group complaining about speed and then admitting they shift at 5k rpm all the time. Maybe in a few speed ranges, maybe in the diesels power band, in a straight line etc. But even if it's to be believed, I really wouldn't care. The number of times I max it off the line to get to 60/70 as quick as I can is fairly rare. I've been overtaken up motorway hills dozens of times, but 99 times out of 100 that's because I already have 3 points on my license and would rather not get another 3. In the grand scheme of things very, very few cars challenge the 86, because around here almost all cars are way slower.
Besides comparing a 320d to an 86 is ludicrous anyway. They aren't even close in genre, capabilities or style. I'm pretty sure there are trucks which can out pull a 320d without a trailer, would you get upset if one of them came past you? Would you want to rush out and declare the 320D a slow car and buy a truck/tractor? No, of course not.
I have not driven a 320D, but I very, very much doubt if I test drove one I would be trading my 86 for one.
I do drive a litre sport tourer motorbike. It will out pull 99.9% of the cars on the road with only the likes of super cars making me honest. (And all litre true sports bikes R1, Fireblades etc.). If I'm honest while the acceleration is fun, it's over way to quickly and you are in license losing territory in a few seconds. I miss my smaller bikes that you had to thrash the hell out of to get there, light nimble, flickable and carefree, compared to the 1000cc which requires so much respect it's often stressful especially in the wet. However coming off the bike into the car, do I feel the 86 less grunt is a disappointment? No.
I'm not saying you are wrong for liking a 320D, but they just aren't in the same league as an 86. They are completely different cars. If you do get out dragged by one in a 86 and you are upset about that, then the 86 is probably not the car for you. But please stop making it sound like an 86 is a lesser car because it gets outdragged by barges.
I think a lot of people have a miss-conception that sports cars have to be fast, when history has proven this to be false far more times than it has proven it to be true. People still drive original mini's (not even sports cars) which are very slow, why? People still drive MkI and MkII escorts with original engines, why? People still drive migets and MGBs etc. Why? People race fiestas that even when fully race tuned are slower than an 86... why? Maybe because it's not just about speed but about fun, enjoyment, handling, style.
The GT86 - in my motorsport fan of many years outlook - is set to become a classic sports car. When you line it up with other classic sports cars of the last 100 years it fits right in and would hold it's own against at least half of them. A 320D will not be in that list and is ultimately destined for the crusher instead of restoration. Super cars are a different thing entirely and I'm really deliberately not including repmobile classics, though older M3 do make an appearance in motorsport events. (though there is the local guy with the stock looking mental hospital green Granada with a 6 litre holden V8, twin turbo and 700bhp who you can hear from a mile away as it pops, crackles and bangs while shredding tyres for breakfast).... funny thing is, it's no where near competitive, I wonder why? Maybe because it's a wallowing barge.
The price thing. We have been here before. When you put your 25-28k in your pocket and go to buy a sports car brand new the options filter down to MX5, 370Z, GT86 and even at that the 370Z is actually more money. Engine aside, it has really nice seats, touch screen, bluetooth, 8 speakers, dual zone climate control and aircon, cruise control, heated seats, electric folding mirrors, multi-mode driver safety aids, HID Zenon headlights, LED tail lights, DRLs.... and so on and so on. It pretty much has ever mod-con of the 2012 era as standard. Also has a torsional LSD as standard which makes it a lot of fun once you get the diff to lock up. As to the interior quality... it's a Subaru. That doesn't even begin to touch on the little details which certainly add to the appeal. Perfectly positioned driving position, knee pads to rest against when under high cornering load, the fact it was designed to fit 4 wheels, spare brakes and a jack in the boot. The fact the roof was raised to allow comfortable room for a helmet. The fact you can touch the steering, gear stick and handbrake at the same time with the same hand (unless your are Donald Trump). There are better cars yes, there are probably better dragging cars for the same money, there are probably better cars S/H for the money, but in my view it's hard to find a better sports car new for the money, especially if you want at least some practicality which promptly kills the 370Z and MX5 dead.
The engine thing. We have been here before. It's a 2.0 NA engine. On the new market there aren't many (any?) 2.0 NA engines that deliver that kind of performance anymore. Toyubaru could have FI'd it, but there are reasons why you want to keep an engine NA. Price, response, insurance cost, fuel cost, emissions, weight. A turbo'd 86 would probably retail at 4-5k higher. Tada San specifically stated they want to keep it NA and give the end buyer the option to turbo it if they wished.
It's not about peak power either. I've driven cars with higher peak power sure, but they just didn't deliver it in as useful, fun and engaging way. TDIs for example you have to wait on them, then it all comes in one lump. None of these cars are specifically designed to go fast round bends for fun. They are designed to haul their fat ass up onto a motorway and then cruise with the family in the back. The 86's engine is lurchy, sharp, near instant response and loves to be trashed till it bounces off the limiter.
I'm not convinced the 320d could out drag the 86 if the 86 was in capable hands. I have read people on the owners group complaining about speed and then admitting they shift at 5k rpm all the time. Maybe in a few speed ranges, maybe in the diesels power band, in a straight line etc. But even if it's to be believed, I really wouldn't care. The number of times I max it off the line to get to 60/70 as quick as I can is fairly rare. I've been overtaken up motorway hills dozens of times, but 99 times out of 100 that's because I already have 3 points on my license and would rather not get another 3. In the grand scheme of things very, very few cars challenge the 86, because around here almost all cars are way slower.
Besides comparing a 320d to an 86 is ludicrous anyway. They aren't even close in genre, capabilities or style. I'm pretty sure there are trucks which can out pull a 320d without a trailer, would you get upset if one of them came past you? Would you want to rush out and declare the 320D a slow car and buy a truck/tractor? No, of course not.
I have not driven a 320D, but I very, very much doubt if I test drove one I would be trading my 86 for one.
I do drive a litre sport tourer motorbike. It will out pull 99.9% of the cars on the road with only the likes of super cars making me honest. (And all litre true sports bikes R1, Fireblades etc.). If I'm honest while the acceleration is fun, it's over way to quickly and you are in license losing territory in a few seconds. I miss my smaller bikes that you had to thrash the hell out of to get there, light nimble, flickable and carefree, compared to the 1000cc which requires so much respect it's often stressful especially in the wet. However coming off the bike into the car, do I feel the 86 less grunt is a disappointment? No.
I'm not saying you are wrong for liking a 320D, but they just aren't in the same league as an 86. They are completely different cars. If you do get out dragged by one in a 86 and you are upset about that, then the 86 is probably not the car for you. But please stop making it sound like an 86 is a lesser car because it gets outdragged by barges.
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