Best smoker barges 1-5 large [vol11]

[Bonefish Blues]

RS3s last pretty well if your alignment is spot on IME, but chew up very badly if it's out in any way. My default tyre too.

[r129sl]

golfer19 said:

SpeckledJim said:

CharlesdeGaulle said:

93DW said:

Easternlight said:

So not only does the owner who has a garage not want to sell it with any come back, these traders don't want to warranty it either!.....

OK. Pass

Without wanting to start a barney in this lovely peaceful corner of PH. If you were a trader would you put your name to a 20+year old car that could start spitting out bills at any given point?

Maybe not, but that isn't how it works. I understand the reluctance to offer guarantees and warranty on old stuff, but adverts that suggest they're something they're not, or which are weasel-worded, should flag warning signs.

We need to be a bit like the Americans here. As a trader, you should be able to sell a car under terms of "hey, this is a bit of a wreck, anything could be up with it, but it's cheap and if you want to take the risk, here it is, take it away. Don't under any circumstances bring it back. If it falls in half on the way home, congratulations, you own both halves."

And for buyers to say "hey Mr Trader, I'm a grown-up. I'm happy to buy this car. I understand that once I give you the money, I own both the car AND all it's problems, both known and unknown."

Not for every transaction, but for those where everyone is prepared to be a grown-up and take responsibility for their own judgment.

Would make life a lot easier for both groups, where both groups are happy to trade under those circumstances.

Let the normal rights apply wherever people want them to, but don't make them mandatory.

Good point well made.

I'm not sure I agree.

Two points.

First, the thing about consumer rights is that if they are not mandatory, no seller will volunteer them.

Second, the warranty implied by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 into the sale and purchase of a 20 year old car at a price of less than £1,000 is not much of a warranty. Unless the trader has something to hide, I do not think he has much to worry about. It may be assumed that a trader using this kind of technique has something to hide.

[CharlesdeGaulle]

SpeckledJim said:

We need to be a bit like the Americans here. As a trader, you should be able to sell a car under terms of "hey, this is a bit of a wreck, anything could be up with it, but it's cheap and if you want to take the risk, here it is, take it away. Don't under any circumstances bring it back. If it falls in half on the way home, congratulations, you own both halves."

And for buyers to say "hey Mr Trader, I'm a grown-up. I'm happy to buy this car. I understand that once I give you the money, I own both the car AND all it's problems, both known and unknown."

Not for every transaction, but for those where everyone is prepared to be a grown-up and take responsibility for their own judgment.

Would make life a lot easier for both groups, where both groups are happy to trade under those circumstances.

Let the normal rights apply wherever people want them to, but don't make them mandatory.

I like the idea of this as a rather gentlemanly principle, and I personally would be happy with those terms. As would, I suspect, many thread regulars. But you only have to glance at some of the threads on PH, let alone the Twitterati, FB-loons, Council-istas et al, to see that most people couldn't stomach that and would squeal like a stabbed rat the moment something went wrong.

Perhaps what's even worse is that some traders, by no means all but probably a significant minority of the bottom-feeders, might use that to weasel out of their legal obligations. And isn't that rather the point of consumer protection; it's there for all, not just when one or other of you feel like it?

Edited by CharlesdeGaulle on Friday 14th July 20:59

[SpeckledJim]

r129sl said:

I'm not sure I agree.

Two points.

First, the thing about consumer rights is that if they are not mandatory, no seller will volunteer them.

I know what you mean, but I'm talking about a £500 1991 XJ6, not a £15,000 2015 Nissan Qashqai. The market would require proper protection in the latter case, and I'm sure in order to sell cars, dealers and traders of more valuable cars would have to offer it.

r129sl said:

Second, the warranty implied by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 into the sale and purchase of a 20 year old car at a price of less than £1,000 is not much of a warranty. Unless the trader has something to hide, I do not think he has much to worry about. It may be assumed that a trader using this kind of technique has something to hide.

There are loads of great cars (thread cars) that the trade won't touch because the public are such a colossal pain in the arse and the risk of a chippy magistrate is too much hassle. That depresses values and lots of these cars get traded in and scrapped. Sad.

I'm proposing a parallel market, where everyone is eyes-wide-open and volunteers to be part. If a buyer doesn't like the terms, other cars are available. If the trader doesn't find his buyer, he might need to offer proper protection. It would balance out, and more cars would find homes.

[SpeckledJim]

CharlesdeGaulle said:

I like the idea of this as a rather gentlemanly principle, and I personally would be happy with those terms. As would, I suspect, many thread regulars. But you only have to glance at some of the threads on PH, let alone the Twitterati, FB-loons, Council-istas et al, to see that most people couldn't stomach that and would squeal like a stabbed rat the moment something went wrong.

Perhaps what's even worse is that some traders, by no means all but probably a significant minority of the bottom-feeders, might use that to weasel out of their legal obligations. And isn't that rather the point of consumer protection; it's there for all, not just when one or other of you feel like it?

Edited by CharlesdeGaulle on Friday 14th July 20:59

I'm talking about circumstances when NEITHER of you want it.

Buyers would know on the way in. Either:

• This is a Retail car. You benefit from the full protection of the law.

• This is a Scheme II car. You are completely on your own. If you are a muppet or a whiner, look elsewhere.

"Excuse me, that XJ6 in the compound, is it for sale?"

"Sorry, no, Just taken it in part-ex, 6 months MOT and given £100 for it. I won't sell it to you, not worth the potential hassle. You are a member of the public, and so probably an entitled psychopath. I'm going to sell the seats on eBay, and weigh it in."

"AAAaaaaaargh, NOOOOOOOOO!"

Is the type of thing I'm on about.

When cars like that end up in the trade, it's difficult to get them back out.

Edited by SpeckledJim on Friday 14th July 21:18

[CharlesdeGaulle]

It's a good point.

It should work, and I would love to see it. Would be interesting to hear the views of Confused Buyer or other expert trade-y threadists.

[Stegel]

I managed to get the price of my SL down a bit further by saying "how about £x on a trade sale basis" and we shook on it. At 18 years old I knew that my rights were pretty limited, and I'm unsure if marking the invoice "trade sale" has that much effect, but he knew I wouldn't be coming back after a month whining about the cigar lighter not working.

I agree there should be a mechanism of some sort that allows dealers to punt out the aged and infirm to mugs like us rather than scrap them to avoid the hassle - I suppose it depends on dealers spotting us as barge connoisseurs and not just the troublesome hoi polloi.

[nickod]

r129sl said:

I hesitated before posting this mini-barge but there is no prospect of me buying it. Somebody should, though. Colours and condition look lovely and the air con would be a welcome addition to an otherwise ultra spartan specification.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1990-Mercedes-Benz-190e-...

I keep looking at this every day. It's a stunning piece of design or am I weird? Do any of the eagle eyed 190 experts ( predominantly R129) see any issues on that car?

[olly755]

SpeckledJim said:

CharlesdeGaulle said:

I like the idea of this as a rather gentlemanly principle, and I personally would be happy with those terms. As would, I suspect, many thread regulars. But you only have to glance at some of the threads on PH, let alone the Twitterati, FB-loons, Council-istas et al, to see that most people couldn't stomach that and would squeal like a stabbed rat the moment something went wrong.

Perhaps what's even worse is that some traders, by no means all but probably a significant minority of the bottom-feeders, might use that to weasel out of their legal obligations. And isn't that rather the point of consumer protection; it's there for all, not just when one or other of you feel like it?

Edited by CharlesdeGaulle on Friday 14th July 20:59

I'm talking about circumstances when NEITHER of you want it.

Buyers would know on the way in. Either:

• This is a Retail car. You benefit from the full protection of the law.

• This is a Scheme II car. You are completely on your own. If you are a muppet or a whiner, look elsewhere.

"Excuse me, that XJ6 in the compound, is it for sale?"

"Sorry, no, Just taken it in part-ex, 6 months MOT and given £100 for it. I won't sell it to you, not worth the potential hassle. You are a member of the public, and so probably an entitled psychopath. I'm going to sell the seats on eBay, and weigh it in."

"AAAaaaaaargh, NOOOOOOOOO!"

Is the type of thing I'm on about.

When cars like that end up in the trade, it's difficult to get them back out.

Edited by SpeckledJim on Friday 14th July 21:18

It's an excellent idea in principle, and one that could benefit all of us. Would it work in practice? Not sure.

The barges on our radar mainly end up in the trade through part exchange. Quick disposal can be difficult as fellow traders see no potential in them due to age/complexity, and they fetch little if punted through the auction. So owners who wish to part-ex are generally bidded in the balls.

All of a sudden there is some potential margin at retail, but with the added PITA factor of selling an old and complex car to Joe Punter waving his Parkers guide and printed off SOGA guidelines. As you would, most offset this by adding a few hundred in hassle factor or comeback repairs to the screen price.

Trade loves a quick turnaround, a bit of profit and as least hassle as possible. A "trade sale to a private punter" scheme makes things more attractive and no doubt would lower prices as the potential risk factor of an unfixable old smoker being dumped back on the forecourt is removed. The trouble is, traders deal quickly, often unseen, using yes and no answers and direct banking: Joe Punter is still Joe Punter, who procrastinates, rubs his beard, goes away for a think, shops around for finance, and still asks for mats and a full tank.

[CharlesdeGaulle]

nickod said:

It's a stunning piece of design or am I weird?

Yes to both: a design that has stood the test of time; but your presence here definitely indicates weirdness.

[r129sl]

nickod said:

r129sl said:

I hesitated before posting this mini-barge but there is no prospect of me buying it. Somebody should, though. Colours and condition look lovely and the air con would be a welcome addition to an otherwise ultra spartan specification.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1990-Mercedes-Benz-190e-...

I keep looking at this every day. It's a stunning piece of design or am I weird? Do any of the eagle eyed 190 experts ( predominantly R129) see any issues on that car?

It looks great to me. The MOT history is not perfect, suggests it could do with new brake and fuel lines sooner or later, but show me a 25 year old car that couldn't. They are very complete cars, even in Sparta spec. That one has air con which makes it very usable. And the low power engine isn't an issue when it is so light.

[nickod]

r129sl said:

nickod said:

r129sl said:

I hesitated before posting this mini-barge but there is no prospect of me buying it. Somebody should, though. Colours and condition look lovely and the air con would be a welcome addition to an otherwise ultra spartan specification.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1990-Mercedes-Benz-190e-...

I keep looking at this every day. It's a stunning piece of design or am I weird? Do any of the eagle eyed 190 experts ( predominantly R129) see any issues on that car?

It looks great to me. The MOT history is not perfect, suggests it could do with new brake and fuel lines sooner or later, but show me a 25 year old car that couldn't. They are very complete cars, even in Sparta spec. That one has air con which makes it very usable. And the low power engine isn't an issue when it is so light.

Thanks. The exterior color combined wth the steel wheels and light seats with black dash
Look great. My only issue is whether a filter has been used on the pictures as pueblo looks different ( less khaki) when I google it. ( strangely it also doesn't look as good on a 124).

[tobinen]

Go and view then buy it. Job done.

[12lee]

nickod said:

I keep looking at this every day. It's a stunning piece of design or am I weird? Do any of the eagle eyed 190 experts ( predominantly R129) see any issues on that car?

The steering wheel is weirdly upside down...

[0a]

190 values are on the up for reasonable ones. I really like that. Sometimes I think I should have gone for the 4 cylinder 190 to keep the spartan, lightweight ethos. My six cylinder doesn't have air conditioning either!

If as described (no rust, interior good, no wear even on the driver's seat), it's probably a bit underpriced.

The brake lines will just be an MOT note (my w124 had that note for over 10 years), same with the fuel lines (though I did address these when I did the rear subframe on my w124).

Edited by 0a on Saturday 15th July 14:20

[iSore]

A good standard 190E is a great car, and they look better with age. £3000 is nothing fore that.

[r129sl]

Pueblo Beige is a great colour. It can look very different on different cars and in different lights. But it is a solid mud green: what more could you want?

The Yanks went for these colours in a big way but we never did. 95% of people will hate it. That is a good sign.

[JamesRR]

12lee said:

The steering wheel is weirdly upside down...

Think it's just the badge that's upside down. Quite why, is beyond me.

[Escapegoat]

iSore said:

A good standard 190E is a great car, and they look better with age. £3000 is nothing fore that.

I'm conflicted. I've had 5 W201s, and still hanker after one.

Stringy pockets on the backs of the front seats are non-saggy, and there's no sign of the door card edges lifting. Both nice to see and rare. But that water expansion tank is a very grotty colour, no? Perhaps just a bad head gasket in the past (very commom M102 problem, ISTR).

But... keep-fit windows and stir-it-yourself gearbox mean it's not very desirable and not really a barge. This is really a not-very-special car that happens to be in surprisingly good condition; only remarkable because every old MB is going up in value with zero percent interest rates.

[mccrackenj]

Escapegoat said:

iSore said:

A good standard 190E is a great car, and they look better with age. £3000 is nothing fore that.

stir-it-yourself gearbox

Eh? The usual 4 speed auto.