Power, Now vs Then vs Reality

[2thumbs]

Rawwr said:

2thumbs said:

I generally find lower hp cars a little frustrating When trying to get a strait line acceleration fix. (I love acceleration) my 320bhp car doesn't always deliver.
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.

Maybe it's because I've had some fairly nippy motorbikes that I've either desensitised to acceleration or just no longer find it at all exciting, more so in four-wheel options.

Ah yeh that'd do it

I've NEVER been on a quick bike, cars still feel a quick to me

[wolves_wanderer]

2thumbs said:

I generally find lower hp cars a little frustrating When trying to get a strait line acceleration fix. (I love acceleration) my 320bhp car doesn't always deliver.
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.

Probably more to do with the fact it was a turbo, the acceleration is more linear with NA so doesn't feel as fast. My current car doesn't feel as fast as my Leon used to but it is quicker.

[2thumbs]

wolves_wanderer said:

2thumbs said:

I generally find lower hp cars a little frustrating When trying to get a strait line acceleration fix. (I love acceleration) my 320bhp car doesn't always deliver.
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.

Probably more to do with the fact it was a turbo, the acceleration is more linear with NA so doesn't feel as fast. My current car doesn't feel as fast as my Leon used to but it is quicker.

Yes very true. There's no kick in the back with an N/A engine. I do miss it

[Rawwr]

2thumbs said:

Ah yeh that'd do it

I've NEVER been on a quick bike, cars still feel a quick to me

Not much compares after you've done a 0-180mph on a litre sportsbike.

[redgriff500]

2thumbs said:

ZOLLAR said:

Rawwr said:

As I just posted on another thread: I'd rather drive a 200bhp car 90% than a 400bhp car at 50%.

That's a good point.

I think he needs to drive a 400bhp car & have a re think

Depends on the car.

My 380bhp Monaro isn't actually that quick and is happy to tootle along.

My old 300bhp Griff wanted to go everywhere 120+ and I got extremely frustrated that after 5 seconds I was at illegal speeds. Dab the accelerator and lift off unless you want to risk a ban - and I frequently did.

My 210bhp MX5 I have kept as it is a wonderful balance for the roads, it is a hooligan out of T junctions and islands and more fun at 80 than an Impreza is at 120

[Sub5s]

I used to have an old Civic EE9 VTEC. About 160bhp with some sensible tuning and stripped down to less than a tonne. It was an absolute blast do drive, felt alot quicker than it actually was with its 7 odd seconds to 62 due to a low seating position (and that lovely VTEC scream!)
Still surprised quite a few people with its straight line performance! And it cornered like a go-kart.

It had a perfect power to weight ratio IMO.
I wish they'd make cars like that again.

[otolith]

Scuffers said:

otolith said:

I see people on this and other forums describing 200bhp in 1200kg 25k entry level sporting coupe as "underpowered", and think people have just completely lost touch with reality.

disagree.

200Bhp in 1200Kg's is not going to set the world on fire.

200Bhp in 750Kg's is 'fun'
300Bhp in 750Kg's is 'exciting'
400Bhp in 750Kg's is 'fast'

now do the same with a typical 1,400+kg's car and you get the point.

it's all relative...

It is - but relative to what you can reasonably expect from a 25k mass market coupe which will be perfectly acceptable as a daily driver, it's fine. If they were selling it for 40k as a raw road/track car and it was highly impractical, noisy, cramped and unrefined, it would not be acceptable. As you say, it's all relative, and relative to normal cars, that power to weight ratio is fine.

[Johnboy Mac]

otolith said:

I see people on this and other forums describing 200bhp in 1200kg 25k entry level sporting coupe as "underpowered", and think people have just completely lost touch with reality.

Oh, so true.

Actually, it really brings into question some peoples abilities to drive, understand a car and extract the most from it's particular dynamics imo.


P.s. Had great fun in a Focus the other day all 1600cc of it!

Edited by Johnboy Mac on Friday 10th February 10:10

[Scuffers]

Johnboy Mac said:

otolith said:

I see people on this and other forums describing 200bhp in 1200kg 25k entry level sporting coupe as "underpowered", and think people have just completely lost touch with reality.

Oh, so true.

Actually, it really brings into question some peoples abilities to drive, understand a car and extract the most from it's particular dynamics imo.


P.s. Had great fun in a Focus the other day all 1600cc of it!

Oh, let's get patronising shall we?

look, this is all about perceptions, and they are going to be relative to what people are used to.

there was a time I though 200Bhp/tonne was fast, now I reckon it takes 2-3x that to get the same feeling.

that said, put a 100Bhp/tonne car on no-grip tyres, it will be fun!

[kambites]

I think there's two different things being discussed at cross-purposes:

Some people find straight-line speed fun in itself. Some just don't enjoy it.

Some people consider a certain degree of straight line speed to be necessary in order to enjoy other aspects of driving, but don't consider it an end in its own right.


Hence the term "underpowered" is used by the two different groups to mean two completely different things.

[MC Bodge]

kambites said:

Hence the term "underpowered" is used by the two different groups to mean two completely different things.

Having owned mid-range bikes and ridden faster ones, I've changed my view of massive straight line acceleration and stuck with 'modest' bikes.

I now think that it is possible to have more than enough for the road. For me the skill/satisfaction lies in riding/driving well on challenging roads with the equipment you have and can make use of, rather than gunning it for 2-3 seconds down a straight road.

If you do just want ultimate acceleration, then don't waste time and money on massive horsepower for your car and just get something like this:

[otolith]

^^ very good point.

There is "not enough power to make normal progress", "not enough power to have fun" and "not enough power for accelerating to be a thrill".

And also, I suppose, "not enough power to protect my ego when I race to work or win at track days".

[Johnboy Mac]

Scuffers said:

Oh, let's get patronising shall we?

look, this is all about perceptions, and they are going to be relative to what people are used to.

there was a time I though 200Bhp/tonne was fast, now I reckon it takes 2-3x that to get the same feeling.

that said, put a 100Bhp/tonne car on no-grip tyres, it will be fun!

Ah, grow up. I've got a view that's it, nothing more.

Anyway, what road car do you suggest that's got 400-600bhp per tonne no less, that might convince me that's the only way to go fast in the real world? Maybe you could educate us all in the process, judging by you comments I and many others have being driving the wrong cars and worse lust after the wrong cars.

[MC Bodge]

I wouldn't get out of bed for anything less than this:



It's awkward to park in the works car park at times, but it is a price worth paying because I live my life a 1/4 mile at a time.

[J4CKO]

2thumbs said:

wolves_wanderer said:

2thumbs said:

I generally find lower hp cars a little frustrating When trying to get a strait line acceleration fix. (I love acceleration) my 320bhp car doesn't always deliver.
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.

Probably more to do with the fact it was a turbo, the acceleration is more linear with NA so doesn't feel as fast. My current car doesn't feel as fast as my Leon used to but it is quicker.

Yes very true. There's no kick in the back with an N/A engine. I do miss it

My 944 provides a good shove, feels as quick as the Saab did with 250 bhp and more "real" if you know what I mean, its all about low down torque, however its delivered, think that is why large capacity petrol owners and diesel turbo owners sometimes feel a bit short changed if they go for high rev screamers like Vtecs, they miss the low down even if they enjoy the top end power, as less face it that is what gets used more of the time.

[Johnboy Mac]

MC Bodge said:

I wouldn't get out of bed for anything less than this:

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

rottie102 said:

I don't understand why would anyone want to limit the horsepower.

Because (at least for me) the fun in driving a car comes from pushing a car as close to its limits as I safety can, and all other things being equal a slower car can generally get closer to its limits for longer than a faster one. Raising any of the limits of a car past a certain point, be it straight line speed, traction or cornering grip, generally makes it less fun to drive, for me.

Things are different on a track - in a track car I'd always take more power unless it compromises responsiveness.

Personally, I'm slightly baffled as to why people want powerful cars on the road. It just seems a complete waste of time to me. Maybe it's just because it sounds cool on PH?

Edited by kambites on Thursday 9th February 12:20

There is a flip side though, in that a powerful car can often require far more effort to drive at the limit, and it's limit might actually be far lower due to the ease of spinning the wheels.

So in many ways to attain this:
"Because (at least for me) the fun in driving a car comes from pushing a car as close to its limits as I safety can"

Is actually more rewarding and challenging in cars with more power at time. E.g. it's more rewarding to push my TR7 to it's limits, but with the extra power comes traction issues. You simply can't plant it like you can in the Roadster. Even if you are going slower.

[Scuffers]

Johnboy Mac said:

Scuffers said:

Oh, let's get patronising shall we?

look, this is all about perceptions, and they are going to be relative to what people are used to.

there was a time I though 200Bhp/tonne was fast, now I reckon it takes 2-3x that to get the same feeling.

that said, put a 100Bhp/tonne car on no-grip tyres, it will be fun!

Ah, grow up. I've got a view that's it, nothing more.

Anyway, what road car do you suggest that's got 400-600bhp per tonne no less, that might convince me that's the only way to go fast in the real world?

blimey, wrong side of the bed day?

Try a Lotus Elise with ~300-400Bhp, then come back with something sensible to say.

[redgriff500]

300bhp/ton said:

There is a flip side though, in that a powerful car can often require far more effort to drive at the limit, and it's limit might actually be far lower due to the ease of spinning the wheels.

That was me in my 340bhp RX7 on summer tyres trying to keep up with a modern 130bhp TDi in the slush.

Everytime I tried to accelerate the rear started to slide out - at about 30-40mph

[MC Bodge]

I'm actually a bit bored with my Top Fuel Dragster road car so these days I ride a rocket sled once a week to feed my adrenaline addiction.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 10th February 12:43