Are modern performance cars irrelevant?

[mondeoman]

Its not about the ultimate pace, its about the ability to accelerate and overtake. Most cars on the road now are capable of some significant speeds, but when most of the drivers are comfortable sitting ten feet off the car in front at 45mph, and you come across 4 of them in a line, then you need something with some grunt to get past them quickly and easily.

And the feeling of getting it just right coming off a roundabout, balancing throttle against grip, you just cant do that in "normal" cars: I remember driving a Maserati 4200 once, and the way that squirmed under power was beautiful. Then once you're up to speed (limit plus just a little bit, and no, I don't mean silly speeds), you just back off and cruise and plot lines through corners, a little dab on the brakes, a slight bit of throttle - all part of driving fun, that is achieved without putting yourself in any real danger: I know you can do this in a lower powered car, but I#ll take the one with the grunt any day.

[induction]

Astra 1.4 with maybe 50 bhp all the car you ever need

[MC Bodge]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I agree and that is the way I try to drive. I'm not quite sure why RYH64E thinks what you are saying is "boy racer".

I'd have thought that any keen driver would understand what you are talking about....

[irish boy]

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

Good thread...every person is different. I had a 911 turbo which I changed for a lotus last year. Was great for a while but I missed that combination of a proper thump in the back and squirming rear end coming out of slow bends on a mountain roads along with a refined car when taking the wife to dinner. Sold the lotus before Christmas and bought a g wagen for over the winter (which I'm enjoying surprisingly much) and we'll see what spring brings.

[deltashad]

Thought I'd look at how the M5 had progressed over the years, the original 1985 car could hit 60 in around six seconds flat. Then blast onwards to 153mph. they have always been massively quick and competent cars. That's very quick by today's standards.
Maybe the car really has just become too accomplished. Maybe it is just too good.
Unless you fancy getting up at 03:30 in the morning and going for a blast you're not really going to able to use a car like that for how its been designed and tested to be used.
I cant remember the last time I went above 120mph, I cant remember the last time I got anywhere near that. All three of our cars can hit double the speed limit.
Yep, I'd say modern performance cars are irrelevant. Speed does not equal fun. Manufacturers have manufactured out the majority of shakes, rattles and noises which make the experience fun. Perfection is not perfection.

[deltashad]

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

So if you were in a 1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time) and you came across spunky young boy racer in his a Clio Sport, (a shopping trolley of our time), do you think you'd have a hope in hell of being anywhere near the Clio?

I dont think so ...

[irish boy]

deltashad said:

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

So if you were in a 1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time) and you came across spunky young boy racer in his a Clio Sport, (a shopping trolley of our time), do you think you'd have a hope in hell of being anywhere near the Clio?

I dont think so ...

What kind of road? 1975 911 930 turbo 0-100 in 11.7. 2011 cliosport 200 0-100 17ish. Top end? Not worth even typing the figures. On all but the tightest of roads I'll take the porsche thanks.
I'll also have a lot more fun in the porsche, having had a 911 turbo I know they are properly explosive coming out of (dry) S bends....a cliosport wouldn't see they way it went.

[Alfanatic]

deltashad said:

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time)

No it wasn't.

[Monty Python]

Given the state of our roads, I'm rapidly moving away from anything with "sports" suspension and rubber-band tyres to something that is reasonably quick but won't break my spine every time I drive over an ant.

[irish boy]

Alfanatic said:

deltashad said:

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time)

No it wasn't.

Much debated but I would say the 1975 911 930 turbo was a supercar where the regular bread and butter one was not.

[MC Bodge]

Monty Python said:

Given the state of our roads, I'm rapidly moving away from anything with "sports" suspension and rubber-band tyres to something that is reasonably quick but won't break my spine every time I drive over an ant.

'Sports' suspension and 'sports' tyre developed for cars lapping quickly at a famous German race track, then used mostly slowly on real British roads.

Tools for the job and all that, anyone?

[Alfanatic]

irish boy said:

Alfanatic said:

deltashad said:

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time)

No it wasn't.

Much debated but I would say the 1975 911 930 turbo was a supercar where the regular bread and butter one was not.

That's true and that's how I see it too, and I don't think a Turbo, even the first 3 litre one, is going to get left behind by a Clio Sport. I reckon a 1975ish 2.7 would give the Clio a run too, but both the turbo and NA have a power advantage, a traction advantage, a weight advantage (I think) and are at no particular sightline or width disadvantage. They will definitely be more demanding to get the performance from, but they can do it, I'm pretty sure.

They wouldn't see which way a Focus RS went though

EDIT: Ah, I missed your post in the middle. Seems like we're drawing the similar conclusions.

[J4CKO]

irish boy said:

deltashad said:

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

So if you were in a 1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time) and you came across spunky young boy racer in his a Clio Sport, (a shopping trolley of our time), do you think you'd have a hope in hell of being anywhere near the Clio?

I dont think so ...

What kind of road? 1975 911 930 turbo 0-100 in 11.7. 2011 cliosport 200 0-100 17ish. Top end? Not worth even typing the figures. On all but the tightest of roads I'll take the porsche thanks.
I'll also have a lot more fun in the porsche, having had a 911 turbo I know they are properly explosive coming out of (dry) S bends....a cliosport wouldn't see they way it went.

I went in one as a sixteen year old, driven by a mad, showoff Greek chap gave me the impression that A, it was very, very fast and b, it was a handful in the dry as well when provoked.

[Devil2575]

deltashad said:

irish boy said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, these days a modern commuter shopping trolley car will have the same kind of performance as what was once a supercar of the 70s and perhaps even early 80s.........

Basically, cars are stupidly fast for the average road user....

So a tdi passat will keep up with a countach on tune? Doubt it.

So if you were in a 1975 Porsche 911 (supercar of its time) and you came across spunky young boy racer in his a Clio Sport, (a shopping trolley of our time), do you think you'd have a hope in hell of being anywhere near the Clio?

I dont think so ...

I wouldn't even describe a Clio Sport as a 'Shopping trolley'.

The 'shopping trolley' version is the 1.5 DCI.

However it is true to say that over the years cars have got progressively faster.

Back in the 80s the XR3i would do 0-60 in about 9 seconds and go on to something like 115mph. It had a searing 115bhp IIRC.

Now the modern equivalent, the Focus ST has 221 bhp, does 152 mph and will get to 60 in 6.6 seconds.

Compare to an 84 911 3.2 Carrera with 231 bhp, top speed of 152 mph and 0-60 of 5.6 seconds.

Ok the 911 is still quicker but look how close the ST is compared to the XR3i.

[stargazer30]

Devil2575 said:

I wouldn't even describe a Clio Sport as a 'Shopping trolley'.

The 'shopping trolley' version is the 1.5 DCI.

However it is true to say that over the years cars have got progressively faster.

Back in the 80s the XR3i would do 0-60 in about 9 seconds and go on to something like 115mph. It had a searing 115bhp IIRC.

Now the modern equivalent, the Focus ST has 221 bhp, does 152 mph and will get to 60 in 6.6 seconds.

Compare to an 84 911 3.2 Carrera with 231 bhp, top speed of 152 mph and 0-60 of 5.6 seconds.

Ok the 911 is still quicker but look how close the ST is compared to the XR3i.

hmm so a modern hot hatch is nearly as fast these days as a sports car of olde. Okay point taken. I guess thats because modern cars have electronic drivers aids and loads of safety features so your average driver with basic driving skills can drive them without crashing them as the computer is cleaning up after them and even if they do manage to bin it they have a decent chance of walking away from it.

So I guess yes in this sense modern "performance" cars are more irrelevant. However we need to make the distinction between performance and sports or drivers cars here. You can make a family hatch like the ST go as fast as you like and it will never make it a "drivers car" or make it a sports car like the 911. Its the wrong wheel drive, has the engine in the wrong place, its way too heavy etc, doesn't handle well (in comparison!) but this is okay it wasn't designed for that.

Maybe we should be asking are modern sports cars irrelevant? I don't think so, maybe just a little bit :-)

[sparkyhx]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

really? mine will do about 70ish in second and about 100ish in third and its only a 2ltr

anyway irrelevant.............. twisties, balancing the car, brakes and throttle, whether thats 40mph or 80 its doesn't matter its that meld between man and machine. some cars will di that at modest speed and others at higher speed.

I remember having a hoot driving a citroen berlingo up the mountain roads in tenerife, just the conbination of point squirt, brake, stear, repeat until at top.

RYH64E said:

What a load of pretentious twaddle.

I think you are getting road and track confused, unless the roads you drive on are completely different to the ones near me.

why? - to me thats the whole essence of a good drive + scenery, but thats less important if concentration levels are up

Edited by sparkyhx on Monday 5th March 21:19