RE: The end of M
Discussion
As others have said, //M has been a badge marketing exercise ever since the E36 M3 (the race version of the E46, the M3GTR had a V8!) it's just got worse recently.
What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.
As for turbocharging the engines, this was done absolutely for cost reasons and ease of meeting emissions legislation. I'd consider a turbcharged performance car if necessary but I'd never choose a dual clutch transmission over a manual.
What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.
As for turbocharging the engines, this was done absolutely for cost reasons and ease of meeting emissions legislation. I'd consider a turbcharged performance car if necessary but I'd never choose a dual clutch transmission over a manual.
0836whimper said:
I don't think they do, for most buyers it goes something like this :
- Need a BMW on the drive rather than a Vauxhall/Citroen etc
- Need an 'M' in the name because it doesn't cost much more and ensures I don't get beaten in golf club one-upmanship
- Definitely need to be able to connect my iphone and maybe warm my bum (don't want a poverty spec base model)
- Don't care about ride quality, all-weather practicality or if it's actually a 118d
As actual driving machines, they don't really care. Unlike most people on here.
Absolutely bang on. These people that you talk about are the masses, not us the minority. - Need a BMW on the drive rather than a Vauxhall/Citroen etc
- Need an 'M' in the name because it doesn't cost much more and ensures I don't get beaten in golf club one-upmanship
- Definitely need to be able to connect my iphone and maybe warm my bum (don't want a poverty spec base model)
- Don't care about ride quality, all-weather practicality or if it's actually a 118d
As actual driving machines, they don't really care. Unlike most people on here.
4rephill said:
If BMW were to make a true, light weight, back to basics version of it's ///M series, that's focussed more on driving pleasure than having luxury toys in it, I'm sure it would sell.
Think along the lines of: Manual winding windows, no bulky Sat-Nav system adding weight,(but you can buy an ///M road atlas as an option! This book could contain advice on the most entertaining roads to drive on in Europe), manually adjusted seats, a basic, lightweight air-con system (with an air-con delete option for the true hardcore), no stereo system, a manual gearbox, lightweight panels and glass, no front fog-lights (you rarely need them anyway), etc., etc.
Nope won't sell. And this is why:Think along the lines of: Manual winding windows, no bulky Sat-Nav system adding weight,(but you can buy an ///M road atlas as an option! This book could contain advice on the most entertaining roads to drive on in Europe), manually adjusted seats, a basic, lightweight air-con system (with an air-con delete option for the true hardcore), no stereo system, a manual gearbox, lightweight panels and glass, no front fog-lights (you rarely need them anyway), etc., etc.
BMW's are every day cars, and they're bought be people who want a proper every day car.
Do I want:
A) Kids crying in the back, they can't sleep because the ambient noise is too high.
B) A harsh ride on the way home after a 12 hour day.
C) No stereo to listen to whilst I'm extremely bored in traffic.
D) A harsh seat to irritate me whilst I am creeping along, extremely bored in traffic.
E) A manual whilst I am creeping along, bored in traffic.
D) A higher price for light weight panels, which won't make any difference to me whilst I am bored in traffic.
A light weight car like the Elise exists for the thrills when you don't want an every day car, it's called... the Elise.
Added to that, a decent air con system that you want whilst stuck in boring traffic in the summer is as light and as cost effective as it can be. Trust me, when you're mass producing automotive parts you take the pennies out of items and leave no excess material (i.e. cost) in them.
Soft, automatic cars sell well and for a very good reason. Every day driving is, well, s
t. Comfort, silence of road noise and a great stereo to hear what I do want to listen to is what I want to help take away the monotony.Edited by BeirutTaxi on Monday 10th December 13:30
[quote=Al 450
What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.
[/quote]
I don't agree with this - I don't believe that someone in the market for an M3 will look at a 320d and think hey, if I get an M-sport it looks almost the same, I'll have one of them instead.
What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.
[/quote]
I don't agree with this - I don't believe that someone in the market for an M3 will look at a 320d and think hey, if I get an M-sport it looks almost the same, I'll have one of them instead.
sanctum said:
Do we really hark back to cars which are hard to drive fast, require an ammount of effort to keep on the road and which need a certain skill, ability and deft touch at the wheel to keep pointing in the right direction? Of course we do. But most people don't want to learn to drive, they just want bragging rights and stupidly fast, and if the car deigns to leave the road or cause a collision, clearly it was the fault of the engineers for not making it idiot proof!
Yes yes yes! The '96 M3 evo 4door I had in 1998-99 was both the best and the scariest car I've ever owned! BMW should look to Honda for an example of what happens when you throw out the baby with the bath water. After gradually diluting and then stopping the "Type R" badge, as well as getting rid of the NSX, S2000 and any sporting coupe in the range, they sailed on for a few years without the "hassle" of a performance brand to engineer. Yet, now that everyone has forgotten who Honda is because they have no halo cars to link their tin box shovelware with their past racing glories, nobody is buying them. The brand is in pretty dire straights and they're now clambering to produce sporting cars and bring back Type R as quickly as they can.
g3org3y said:
GranCab said:
M stands for ///Marketing now ...
EFA 
Take the E30 M3 for example, made so the E30 DTM car could go racing. The racing is there to boost...[drum roll] marketing.
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Monday 10th December 13:59
Is this guy Trent really a journalist? It certainly wasn't the most flowing piece of journalism I've ever read. Seems like he really ran out of things to write about, was momentarily inspired by the recent M5 Manual piece and may even have had a bit of a row with Mrs Trent, immediately prior to putting pen to paper.
I am guilty of having owned a few M badged cars, M535i, 320d M Sport, currently 640d M Sport. Do I think I'm fooling anyone into thinking I drive a real M Car - no. Do I think they drive any better than an SE variant - no. Do I prefer the way they look with the M styling, prefer the support from the firmer seats and enjoy the better residuals - yes, yes I do.
Generally speaking, I still find BMW products that little bit more engaging to drive than their Benz/Audi/Lexus counterparts. Having been lucky enough to have run a E46 M3 CSL and E92 M3 for four months each, I still feel that genuine M Cars retain a degree of 'specialness' right from startup. Having said that, I would never consider replacing my weekend toys with an M3, because it is always going to be a somewhat diluted product. I guess that's the point - they do fast, fun, practical, all exceptionally well, in one package.
I think they should be congratulated on producing cars like the M135i which bring a level of performance AND driver involvement in at a reasonable pricepoint.
I am guilty of having owned a few M badged cars, M535i, 320d M Sport, currently 640d M Sport. Do I think I'm fooling anyone into thinking I drive a real M Car - no. Do I think they drive any better than an SE variant - no. Do I prefer the way they look with the M styling, prefer the support from the firmer seats and enjoy the better residuals - yes, yes I do.
Generally speaking, I still find BMW products that little bit more engaging to drive than their Benz/Audi/Lexus counterparts. Having been lucky enough to have run a E46 M3 CSL and E92 M3 for four months each, I still feel that genuine M Cars retain a degree of 'specialness' right from startup. Having said that, I would never consider replacing my weekend toys with an M3, because it is always going to be a somewhat diluted product. I guess that's the point - they do fast, fun, practical, all exceptionally well, in one package.
I think they should be congratulated on producing cars like the M135i which bring a level of performance AND driver involvement in at a reasonable pricepoint.
I don't see what the problem is. More efficient, faster, better cars are surely the way forward? If the move from highly inefficient naturally aspirated manual cars to efficient turbocharged dual-clutch paddle shifiting automatics is going to provoke the same sort of lamenting and moaning, then we are in for some depressing reading over the next ten years. It's time to embrace the change guys! It'll be great!
velocgee said:
4rephill said:
BMW have already made a similar car with the E46 M3 CSL, so they're aware that there's a market for them, so why don't they make more models in that sort of guise?
my understanding is that they struggled to sell the M3 CSL......and.....a close mate of mine owns an RS4 (similar to the M3)....he loves the performance, the engine etc but simply wouldn't have bought it if it was a bit stripped out. the same applies for my dad who owns an E92 M3.....the whole point of these cars is that they're still a good laugh to drive but they still play the daily driver/long distance cruiser etc roles very well indeed.
E38Ross said:
kambites said:
Are they? Or are they calling it the 4-series so they can justify charging more money for it?
well, it was in the official statement the coupe would be a bit more driver focussed than the 3.....MajorProblem said:
astirling said:
[quote=Al 450
What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.
I don't agree with this - I don't believe that someone in the market for an M3 will look at a 320d and think hey, if I get an M-sport it looks almost the same, I'll have one of them instead.What's worse, and I will blame marketing for this, was the realisation that there was profit to be made slapping M badges and bodykits on Diesels and other low spec, non performance cars. This has the dual effect on de-valueing the badge and brand plus also removing a lot of the cachet of driving a real M car as they all look the same. It then becomes self fulfilling as less people buy real M cars and more buy M-sport models. Marketing justify the strategy based on sales alone so this repeats itself when actually there is a very high margin on an M car. Sad really. Not that BMW are the only guilty ones in this regard.
The E46 M3 was a great looking car and well received due to the wide arches, deep bumpers etc but in comparison you'd struggle to spot an E92 against an M sport kitted 320 coupe if it wasn't for the quad exhausts.
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