RE: Ferrari F150 vs McLaren P1: PH Blog

[Bezza1969]

Cant wait for the road test of either car, although I suspect only McLaren will lend one to Autocar!

Only thing im not happy about with the P1 is that the kerb weight is now 1400 KG, not 1200...why didnt they ditch the hybrid power train, lose a few BHP but also lose some weight and keep more to the "gordon murray ethos"..?

[Inertiatic]

Bezza1969 said:

Cant wait for the road test of either car, although I suspect only McLaren will lend one to Autocar!

Only thing im not happy about with the P1 is that the kerb weight is now 1400 KG, not 1200...why didnt they ditch the hybrid power train, lose a few BHP but also lose some weight and keep more to the "gordon murray ethos"..?

Because its a tech showcase

[Rich_W]

Caractacus said:

Rich_W said:

I can't read posts correctly...

I said P1...P1, yes?

Well done thicko. I understood your point.

You were talking about how Ferrari set their cars up for tests. Potentially modified from standard, dedicated staff on hand etc etc (as whinged unjustifiably about by Harris a while back)

Caractacus said:

The stats for the P1 will be on the money, real world numbers, speeds, etc. These speeds will be achievable my owners and Chris Harris alike. The stats for the F150 will be manufactured and no one, bar the factory, will ever be able to extract the same data from the car.

Yet McLaren are just as bad! But are seemingly allowed to do the same but people don't kick them as much

For reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8EAYPssUzg

Skip to 7mins or so. (yes that's a McLaren employee polishing it. So much for no support) Look for McLaren's "excuse" right at the end. Paraphrasing "the car had a techncial fault and when our chief test driver returned to the track with better tyres it was faster than the Ferrari" It's completely plausible that it was faster. It's just also completely irrelvant when the whole point of the test was same driver differnet cars, same day You'll be trying to explain that the 12C (yes the older car) wasn't tested extensively at Dunsfold by their chief driver to get that time on Top Gear and that it wasn't that same driver in the Stig suit

Don't kick Ferrari for "optimising" if you don't also kick McLaren, Audi, Lambo, Porsche etc for doing the same. I will expect both P1 and F70 to be just as optimised for any testers.

[MrRA]

As with the current sentiment regarding the MP4 -12C to be a technically excellent and compelling supercar, but the 458 being just as good but with that 'passion of character' that Ferrari somehow seems to evoke with its products, I have a funny feeling that history will repeat with P1 v F150 battle soon to be played out. With a highly strung naturally aspirated big V12 at it's heart, it's certainly struck the first blow for me already, regardless of what McLaren says about it's twin turbo V8. Bespoke hypercars should get a bespoke powerplant if you ask me.

That's my tuppence worth anyway without wanting to go deeply into the argument.

Either way, if you're in the business of buying million pound hypercars at the moment, life must be pretty damn good indeed. Near perpetual orgasmic in feeling I would hazard a guess at

Edited by MrRA on Saturday 2nd March 16:38

[viggyp]

c_seven said:

I'll take the mystery box

It could be a boat

[TomTVR500]

MyCC said:

Davey S2 said:

Neither.

I'd rather a Zonda and change.

Well said that man. The Zonda is destined for huge future appreciation, if any of you are lucky to have the funds buy one, you won't lose much! F-Roadster for me please! One of the last of the old-school.

Regards,

MyCC.

Also have to agree, the Zonda is still the ultimate for me, it’s got an incredible sounding NA engine, manual gearbox, its stunning to look at inside and out, its light and it drives brilliantly (apparently) there isn't a single fault with the Zonda.

I find myself quite bored with this latest raft of super fast, flappy paddle, "race technology" laden hypercars.

Impressive? Certainly

Exciting? Absolutely not

[jason61c]

Bezza1969 said:

Cant wait for the road test of either car, although I suspect only McLaren will lend one to Autocar!

Only thing im not happy about with the P1 is that the kerb weight is now 1400 KG, not 1200...why didnt they ditch the hybrid power train, lose a few BHP but also lose some weight and keep more to the "gordon murray ethos"..?

I've just had a toyota prius for a week, I was thinking exactly the same thing, motorway overtakes laden down by batteries etc.

[007 VXR]

jason61c said:

Bezza1969 said:

Cant wait for the road test of either car, although I suspect only McLaren will lend one to Autocar!

Only thing im not happy about with the P1 is that the kerb weight is now 1400 KG, not 1200...why didnt they ditch the hybrid power train, lose a few BHP but also lose some weight and keep more to the "gordon murray ethos"..?

I've just had a toyota prius for a week, I was thinking exactly the same thing, motorway overtakes laden down by batteries etc.

With 900bhp, i dont think it will be much of an issue.

[anonymous-user]

Bezza1969 said:

why didnt they ditch the hybrid power train, lose a few BHP but also lose some weight and keep more to the "gordon murray ethos"..?

Because this is 2013, not 1993......... ;-)

[mikebrownhill]

900T-R said:

How much is an F1 again in today's market? And an F40, F50, Enzo (only the fact that I need to mention different ones will tell you something).

The biggest 'problem' I see for the P1 is that it's got awfully large boots to fill - probably the largest in automotive history.

It does, it tells me that Ferrari have a back catalogue to die for - and to be honest if you feel the need to compare $ values then you can't be so selective, you have to include all the Ferrari's: 250 GTO, or the 250 LM, or the (original) Testorossa - the list of expensive Ferrari's in today market that eclipse F1 values is very significant.

I am a huge fan of the F1 by the way but equally we cannot dismiss Ferrari and their heritage.

[C36 Nico]

mikebrownhill said:

It does, it tells me that Ferrari have a back catalogue to die for - and to be honest if you feel the need to compare $ values then you can't be so selective, you have to include all the Ferrari's: 250 GTO, or the 250 LM, or the (original) Testorossa - the list of expensive Ferrari's in today market that eclipse F1 values is very significant.

I am a huge fan of the F1 by the way but equally we cannot dismiss Ferrari and their heritage.

according to some on here they are barely a car manufacturer and only sell t-shirts and caps...

[Talksteer]

Rich_W said:

jimbob82 said:

1 is a thoroughbred race car and the other has been created by some of, if not THE best engineer's in the world...

aah. BUT

Think of Adrian Newey. He's the top man as you are aware. Went from Williams to McLaren to Red Bull. he sets teh tone for the cars and his nad built team do the rest. 1 man conducting the orchestra. Look at the McL F1. Gordon Murray was the man. Obsessive about weight. Called in the personal favour from Paul Rosche (BMW) All men in their respective fields were legends. The clout required.

Whose at McLaren now leading the way? What cars did he last engineer? Same question to Ferrari to be fair, but you could argue the 'Enzo' factor (founder, not F60) imbued enough character/passion that is still being acted upon today. A Ferrari these days is still a Ferrari (few exceptions of course) A Lambo today still has that "Lamboness"

The McLarens post SLR suffer from that "1 man vision" thing. Which is a shame.

The reality is that engineering is a team effort, this becomes even more so as the gains become more marginal and the banks of previous knowledge becomes larger. No one persons input is actually that important.

Adrian Newey actually runs a small team which does some of the preliminary design for the car and then looks at improving it over the course of the year. He isn't actually what most organisations would label as the chief engineer he doesn't run the engineering function where most of the design and engineering time is spent. Newey will have to negotiate with the chief design engineer as to how and when his team's input gets into the car.

The P1 and "F150" are being built in numbers and have far greater level of technical complexity than the F1. In the case of the P1 it is substantially cheaper, the F1 would be £1,300,000 in todays money (based on labour cost). As a result cost will have to be controlled to a degree it wasn't in the F1 and is a layer that they don't have to the same degree in F1 racing.

[Grovsie26]

Neither.

Save up more and get one of these:


Can anyone else see the P1 being a bit like the 12c. utterly rapid, but when it's all said and done, a bit to clinical and boring.

Surely at this end of the market, it's more about looks, sound and how it makes you feel, than lap times and 0-60, etc?

And thats why the Zonda is better, and thats why the Ferrari will be better.

[Baddie]

Guvernator said:

900T-R said:

The biggest 'problem' I see for the P1 is that it's got awfully large boots to fill - probably the largest in automotive history.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. When they made the F1 it was THE best car in the world and their was nothing else like it. Now they face some stiff competition and for all their fantastic engineering expertise, I'm not sure if Mclaren are up to the job of producing a worthy successor to the F1.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it will be a technical marvel and produce unbelievable stats but both the 12c and the P1 leave me a bit cold I'm afraid. Whatever magic the F1 had, they haven't been able to recapture it in the new cars. The two people on the forum who are current F1 owners have already stated that they aren't interested in the new cars which is rather telling in itself.

Comparing numbers, 0-100 times and power figures is pointless IMO as both cars are so far beyond the realms of normal\believable that it becomes a bit of a futile exercise. Where it will make a difference is how the car makes you feel. Ferrari for all their evil machinations, often crass image amd marketing, KNOW how to do drama in spades and the F1 did it without even trying. The new Mclaren cars are almost trying too hard and failing IMO.

The F1 was Gordon Murray's car. He has personality.

The P1 is Corporate Ron's car. It's bloody good at doing its job.

[Rich_W]

Baddie said:

The F1 was Gordon Murray's car. He has personality.

The P1 is Corporate Ron's car. It's bloody good at doing its job.

And the Zonda is Horatios and Koenisegg is Christians. And Ferrari and Lamboghini are their own. It seems to work pretty well.

Conversely Bugatti is VW's and it's probably the worse for that. The "commitee" feel seems very much like "corporate Ron" brilliant, but lacking somehow.

[Amirhussain]

davepoth said:

SpeckledJim said:

BelfastBoy said:

I don't know why Ferrari bother with all the smoke-and-mirrors slow reveal stuff leading up to motorshows, because whatever the expected production run is for the F150, I'm sure it's all been accounted for long ago.

Because making a fuss about 300 £1m cars built from 100% unobtainium is a very good way of shifting 458s at very nice margins indeed.

The £1m car is an anchor. A crazy-priced item of conspicuous desirability which drags up the perceived value of the actual product for sale.

Ferrari is a novelty goods empire that also happens to make some cars, McLaren is a car company. That's the difference.

http://www.mclarenstore.com/en/uk/page/home/?utm_s...

[ephancock77]

Ferrari will have an edge over Mclaren for some time to come and quite simply due to the fact that you cannot buy heritage.

I personally don't think that their last flagship hyper car the Enzo looked particularly nice at all whereas the old F1 still looks great even today but just my opinion. One things for sure though and that is Mclaren have made a very bold move with this car in the looks and its power source.

I expect the Mclaren will be a technological marvel but dubbed soul-less (top gear) whilst the Ferrari will get more plaudits for the drama. (Oh and it might catch on fire too)

[TomTVR500]

ephancock77 said:

(Oh and it might catch on fire too)

[Caractacus]

Rich_W said:

Caractacus said:

Rich_W said:

I can't read posts correctly...

I said P1...P1, yes?

Well done thicko. I understood your point.

You were talking about how Ferrari set their cars up for tests. Potentially modified from standard, dedicated staff on hand etc etc (as whinged unjustifiably about by Harris a while back)

Caractacus said:

The stats for the P1 will be on the money, real world numbers, speeds, etc. These speeds will be achievable my owners and Chris Harris alike. The stats for the F150 will be manufactured and no one, bar the factory, will ever be able to extract the same data from the car.

Yet McLaren are just as bad! But are seemingly allowed to do the same but people don't kick them as much

For reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8EAYPssUzg

Skip to 7mins or so. (yes that's a McLaren employee polishing it. So much for no support) Look for McLaren's "excuse" right at the end. Paraphrasing "the car had a techncial fault and when our chief test driver returned to the track with better tyres it was faster than the Ferrari" It's completely plausible that it was faster. It's just also completely irrelvant when the whole point of the test was same driver differnet cars, same day You'll be trying to explain that the 12C (yes the older car) wasn't tested extensively at Dunsfold by their chief driver to get that time on Top Gear and that it wasn't that same driver in the Stig suit

Don't kick Ferrari for "optimising" if you don't also kick McLaren, Audi, Lambo, Porsche etc for doing the same. I will expect both P1 and F70 to be just as optimised for any testers.

Name calling? Still in the playground, or suffering from Freudian projection?

Fiat have been optimising cars for years and you just need to read the piece by Mr Harris to understand how rife the BS is within that company.

My comment was, and still is (if you actually understand that most salient point) that the P1 will be able t achieve all the numbers it claims. By Journo's and owners alike.

And what make you such an expert on what Mr Harris is justified in saying?

ETA - Mclaren are JUST s bad? How on earth do you reach that conclusion when the boys from Fix It Again Tony have been doing it for years, and years, with many, many different models? So Mcl do it with the 12C, you say. This, therefore makes them JUST as bad? Yeah, I really get your logic on that one.

Edited by Caractacus on Sunday 3rd March 11:48

[Rich_W]

Caractacus said:

ETA - Mclaren are JUST s bad? How on earth do you reach that conclusion when the boys from Fix It Again Tony have been doing it for years, and years, with many, many different models? So Mcl do it with the 12C, you say. This, therefore makes them JUST as bad? Yeah, I really get your logic on that one.

And they dit it with SLR and the F1. (I don't blame them btw) You've managed to sum up my entire point in a few sentances. Cheers for that. You do understand Irony don't you?

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 3rd March 17:53