RE: McLaren P1 Nurburgring lap time
Discussion
blasos said:
It shows how deeply insecure he is. Compare his attitude to Horacio Pagani. Pagani has his own vision and his own targets, he isn't the "oh, he's got a faster car than me, now I need a faster car" type. McLaren come off as being paranoid while Pagani are confident.
McLaren is a racing team; to my knowledge, Pagani (the company) has never raced.Wanting to beat your competitors is not paranoia or a lack of confidence, it's an essential ingredient to succeed in sport (and business).
renaultgeek said:
I can't understand why people talk seriously about cars and then mention top gear.
:-) Nor do I. Top Gear was a just a funny show, what they say about the car they drive is often so wrong and incoherent that probably it is just random. By the way I consider the last seasons also less funny.robinessex said:
I reckon if you'd stuffed the late Gerry Marshall into an Ultima, he'd have pulverised the lot of them!!
Very true. And all for less money than the options list on these cars. Personally if I were going to buy a mega fast weapon it would be the Ultima, Stealth, or similar. That way it can be used as intended on a track. k-ink said:
Very true. And all for less money than the options list on these cars. Personally if I were going to buy a mega fast weapon it would be the Ultima, Stealth, or similar. That way it can be used as intended on a track.
Ah, but those are cars that will actually be used on a track. The P1, Laf and 918 will mostly just end up in private collections and be shown at events. But still great that cars like these are made, makes good discussion material on car forums 
Jurgen said:
I think it's hilarius that most here seem to think that only Ferrari would ever consider to cheat with their laptimes. Do you really think Ferrari would do that every single occasion? And do you really think Mclaren would never do that? It would actually be much easier for Mclaren to up the boost a bit ;-)
They have form! There was a magazine test of the 458 where the conditions of supplying a car were that Ferrari must have access to the track where tha lap time comparison were to take place. Ferrari spent two days with the car, swapping tyres(?) and opimising the setup prior to the test being conducted. And then supplied a different car for the performance figures!mikebradford said:
rumours tend to circulate afterwards, when factory cars appear to not have the same performance characteristics against other cars
Heard several stories of ferrari owners not understanding why their cars appear slower against the opposition, given that in roadtests etc they appear to be faster
And for that reason, Ferrari will not let journalists use any Ferrari customer car for road test articles. The car's unknown providence is cited as the reason, i.e it is not rigged!Heard several stories of ferrari owners not understanding why their cars appear slower against the opposition, given that in roadtests etc they appear to be faster
All this is why Nurburgring times are interesting for pub chat, but mostly irrelevant in the real world. Great for marketing and PR, but would the small difference in lap time be the factor that caused you to choose the 918/LaFerrari/P1 if you were in the market for one? It wouldn't for me.
xRIEx said:
McLaren is a racing team; to my knowledge, Pagani (the company) has never raced.
Wanting to beat your competitors is not paranoia or a lack of confidence, it's an essential ingredient to succeed in sport (and business).
Exactly!!Wanting to beat your competitors is not paranoia or a lack of confidence, it's an essential ingredient to succeed in sport (and business).
...and is a big part of the reason these cars exist - to be the best there is!!
Any car company making a super car wants it to be the best at something (for the money), Pagani, Ferrari, Mclaren, Bugatti etc. Anyone stating otherwise is speaking nonsense.
How this is communicated & advertised to the public is a completely different matter, and is where personalities become involved and peoples interpretation of desire, ambition or arrogance come across.
mikebradford said:
rumours tend to circulate afterwards, when factory cars appear to not have the same performance characteristics against other cars
Heard several stories of ferrari owners not understanding why their cars appear slower against the opposition, given that in roadtests etc they appear to be faster
Just take a look at the numbers produced by the (in)famous evo test in summer 2011 of the 458 against the 12c/gt2 rs/noble. It is still quoted by a good number of people as showing that the 458 is a faster car than the 12c but one also does then notice that particular 458 on supersports lapped Bedford West faster than a GT2 RS on cups......which simply is never going to be the case on any customer car one suspects.Heard several stories of ferrari owners not understanding why their cars appear slower against the opposition, given that in roadtests etc they appear to be faster
Lets say the P1 achieved 6:40ish on road tyres...
Could the P1 challenge Bellof's 6:11 if the P1 was on racing slicks????
P1 vs 956, P1 has more power but more weight, however over 2 decades more of chasis and aero developmnent.
(I think the circuit has changed in a couple of places and degraded in quite a few more, so this would need to be factored)
Could the P1 challenge Bellof's 6:11 if the P1 was on racing slicks????
P1 vs 956, P1 has more power but more weight, however over 2 decades more of chasis and aero developmnent.
(I think the circuit has changed in a couple of places and degraded in quite a few more, so this would need to be factored)
stevesingo said:
...Ferrari will not let journalists use any Ferrari customer car for road test articles. The car's unknown providence is cited as the reason, i.e it is not rigged!
Top Gear US had a 458 go round their track slower than (I think) a ZR1 Corvette. The Ferrari having non standard 22" wheels really didn't help (which one of the presenters at least try to acknowledge to the other two!)robinessex said:
I reckon if you'd stuffed the late Gerry Marshall into an Ultima, he'd have pulverised the lot of them!!
Woo an Ultima Supporter, you can pick up a 500Bhp Ultima for about 40k, invest 10k in a set of custom garret turbos and you can see an easy 1000HP Or buy a Ultima Shell for 20-30k and pay Z cars 20k to put you two turbo hayabusa bike engines in it for a 1100 BHP 960KG Monster. ... 50k for a car similar pace to a car costing 1,000,000.... no brainer to me, fair enough the mclaren will do 30MPG claimed but who gives a crap about MPG if your spending 1,000,000 on a car...[Ferrari is however comprehensively eclipsed by BMW - for a state of the art 4-cylinder engine see the S1000RR motorbike. 1 litre. 193bhp. No typo there 
.
Yes BMW supplied the engine in the infamous Mac F1, 6.1cc V12 N/a, 618bhp and 586 lb torque, very imrpessive figures considering the age it was built and designed.
I also heard rumours that some of the engines in the GTR were pushing a few more ponies that the official figures.
.Yes BMW supplied the engine in the infamous Mac F1, 6.1cc V12 N/a, 618bhp and 586 lb torque, very imrpessive figures considering the age it was built and designed.
I also heard rumours that some of the engines in the GTR were pushing a few more ponies that the official figures.
Whether the P1 beats the 918 or LaFerrari or not, I still wouldn't have one on the looks alone. I saw one on the road a couple of months back and it did absolutely nothing for me, not a nice looking car at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the P1 doesn't fly out of the showrooms like the Ferrari will.
As for the names, they are both cr4p. LaFerrari is just cringe-worthy but P1 is hardly inspiring either!
On another note, I think all three of these 'Hybrid-Hyper-Cars' will never be fondly remembered or revered like old school supercars, the sense of fun is gone, the emissions/safety legislations etc. have killed the supercar!
All three would be much better cars without the Hybrid tech. and taking a huge weight saving and being sold for a lot less money. I'd put money on the fact that the real world emissions/fuel usage would be no worse either. As if the 918 will ever see 98mpg!! From what I've read so far, it can't even do a 'ring lap before the battery runs flat! That sounds like a great idea, add half a ton of weight to a sports car so it can add some extra power for not quite one lap of a track.
As for the names, they are both cr4p. LaFerrari is just cringe-worthy but P1 is hardly inspiring either!
On another note, I think all three of these 'Hybrid-Hyper-Cars' will never be fondly remembered or revered like old school supercars, the sense of fun is gone, the emissions/safety legislations etc. have killed the supercar!
All three would be much better cars without the Hybrid tech. and taking a huge weight saving and being sold for a lot less money. I'd put money on the fact that the real world emissions/fuel usage would be no worse either. As if the 918 will ever see 98mpg!! From what I've read so far, it can't even do a 'ring lap before the battery runs flat! That sounds like a great idea, add half a ton of weight to a sports car so it can add some extra power for not quite one lap of a track.
British Beef said:
Lets say the P1 achieved 6:40ish on road tyres...
Could the P1 challenge Bellof's 6:11 if the P1 was on racing slicks????
P1 vs 956, P1 has more power but more weight, however over 2 decades more of chasis and aero developmnent.
(I think the circuit has changed in a couple of places and degraded in quite a few more, so this would need to be factored)
I am not convinced two decades makes any difference when you compare a compromised road car against a zero compromise race car. Just look at the aero on those Porsche racers. Their shape is about as simple and aerodynamic as you can get, no matter what stylists may tell you. The downforce is staggering...Could the P1 challenge Bellof's 6:11 if the P1 was on racing slicks????
P1 vs 956, P1 has more power but more weight, however over 2 decades more of chasis and aero developmnent.
(I think the circuit has changed in a couple of places and degraded in quite a few more, so this would need to be factored)
No I havn't driven them but the best formula to make a car handle better and go faster has always been to lose weight, not add it, do you not agree? If you don't, why not ask a certain Mr G.Murray or the late Mr C.Chapman. They have not added all this weight and technology to improve the driving experience, they have added it to improve the fuel efficiency (although probably not in the real world).
If each of these cars saved the weight of their hybrid systems, they would weigh less giving better cornering and braking as well as being easier on tyres and every other component of the car meaning they could lap for longer and they would no doubt have a better power-to-weight ratio making them quicker as well. The only downside being that they wouldn't now get a good score on the emissions test. To me (and I would imagine most other petrolheads) that would make them better cars.
If each of these cars saved the weight of their hybrid systems, they would weigh less giving better cornering and braking as well as being easier on tyres and every other component of the car meaning they could lap for longer and they would no doubt have a better power-to-weight ratio making them quicker as well. The only downside being that they wouldn't now get a good score on the emissions test. To me (and I would imagine most other petrolheads) that would make them better cars.
Edited by turbobungle on Wednesday 23 October 12:38
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