Why do you hate the electric car
Discussion
McWigglebum4th said:
I love this concept that everyone either lives within 3 miles of a city centre in a 28 floor flat or they live over 50 miles from a city centre
I live 23 miles from a city centre and have 2 acres of land and parking on the drive for about 30 cars should i want to.
Am i unique?
You certainly aren't representative of most people. I live 23 miles from a city centre and have 2 acres of land and parking on the drive for about 30 cars should i want to.
Am i unique?
300bhp/ton said:
McWigglebum4th said:
I love this concept that everyone either lives within 3 miles of a city centre in a 28 floor flat or they live over 50 miles from a city centre
I live 23 miles from a city centre and have 2 acres of land and parking on the drive for about 30 cars should i want to.
Am i unique?
You certainly aren't representative of most people. I live 23 miles from a city centre and have 2 acres of land and parking on the drive for about 30 cars should i want to.
Am i unique?
So why does no one live 3 to 30 miles from a town centre?
McWigglebum4th said:
I love this concept that everyone either lives within 3 miles of a city centre in a 28 floor flat or they live over 50 miles from a city centre
I live 23 miles from a city centre and have 2 acres of land and parking on the drive for about 30 cars should i want to.
Am i unique?
No, but you are also not "everyone".I live 23 miles from a city centre and have 2 acres of land and parking on the drive for about 30 cars should i want to.
Am i unique?
I live in a town, I have a driveway, but it is a privately rented house so I would not be willing to invest in a dedicated fast charging point. My commute is around 45 miles each way which usually takes an hour, and there are no charging points at my work.
For you, your situation works with the current level of electric car technology. For me it doesn't.
The daily distance I travel for work is around the limits of current EV car range, and as it is mostly motorway, and taking into account that I would be unlikely to get the "advertised" miles per charge, it is simply not worth the risk of getting stranded. However - I would be perfectly happy to own an EV if the working range was around 200 miles on a standard overnight charge. But given that I have never spent more that £10k on a car in my life, it will be a while before that level of technology filters through the 2nd hand market to my price point. I don't expect to own an EV in the next 10 years minimum. I will probably have some form of hybrid though by then.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Nope, the EXPECTED advances have NOT been made. Millions wasted on research for poor return. The problem is physics, energy density.
I didn't say that they had, and nor the did the post i quoted 
Mr GrimNasty said:
The only result has been better cordless tools.
I disagree with that assertion. We have electric cars with a 200 mile+ range, we have phones which are vastly more powerful than the average computer of 15 years ago with a full HD display and yet last a full day on battery power, and there is much more to come with Li-Air, graphene and so on.
It's the charging I don't get with evs, why can't they use rolling resistance and breaking to charge the batteries mainly then a plug when they get really low? So it's constantly charging and the range always improving?
They make sense now for people in cities or who don't need to go lone big distances. To be fair I do less than 100 miles a week but wouldn't have one as the purchase price outweighs savings. Same reason I don't have a new economical car, because it would take years to recoup the cost over running my 2.4 fiat that cost me £0.
They will get better, in a short space of time too. Look at other advances like the mobile phone or tv. It's going to happen.
People saying cars are being turned into white goods are wrong, all cars are purely to get from A to B. It just so happens some do it boringly and some do it in a cloud of v8 tyre smoke. In relality you won't get across London quicker in a c63 a micra or a leaf.
People just forget purchase price when they see a larger amount in their bank every month.
They make sense now for people in cities or who don't need to go lone big distances. To be fair I do less than 100 miles a week but wouldn't have one as the purchase price outweighs savings. Same reason I don't have a new economical car, because it would take years to recoup the cost over running my 2.4 fiat that cost me £0.
They will get better, in a short space of time too. Look at other advances like the mobile phone or tv. It's going to happen.
People saying cars are being turned into white goods are wrong, all cars are purely to get from A to B. It just so happens some do it boringly and some do it in a cloud of v8 tyre smoke. In relality you won't get across London quicker in a c63 a micra or a leaf.
People just forget purchase price when they see a larger amount in their bank every month.
okie592 said:
It's the charging I don't get with evs, why can't they use rolling resistance and breaking to charge the batteries mainly then a plug when they get really low?
EV's are capable of recapturing the energy "stored" in their mass when at speed (their Kinetic energy) but no process is 100% efficient. As such, they cannot recapture all the energy they used to accelerate that mass to the speed in the first place. Typical "round trip efficiency" battery->inverter->motor->road-generator->inverter->battery is around 70%. Mainly however, most of the energy used by a car travelling at any significant speed is not recoverable because it is the basic "drag" of the car. Aero and rolling drag effectively uses up the battery energy and cannot be recovered.
As such, an EV cannot just keep going for ever on it's battery charge.
I must admit I hate them on principle. The joy from driving is a side result from the internal combustion engine - fun cars are merely a "lucky accident" from the need to transport goods and people. Electric cars will replace petrol engines, and eventually a combustion engine will become illegal due to the relentless enforcement of emissions.
That's a shame, in my opinion. I like cars powered by a combustion engine.
Electric cars are in the same category as "going on the bus" for me - no matter how efficient I will never enjoy it.
That's a shame, in my opinion. I like cars powered by a combustion engine.
Electric cars are in the same category as "going on the bus" for me - no matter how efficient I will never enjoy it.
My experience of electric vehicles boils down to fork lift trucks and other indoor industrial plant.
The major advantage of electric in my opinion is noise levels, lack of exhaust gases and mechanical simplicity/durability.
The disadvantages revolved almost entirely around the batteries.
in the case of the car though, I would accept an electric vehicle provided battery range was exceptionally good which would lesson the perils of running out and finding myself stranded.
Depending on the vehicle, the feedback through the gearbox, vibration and engine noise is actually a desirable characteristic as well which is also something removed from EV's.
Then there's the initial purchase price and subsequent depreciation.
The major advantage of electric in my opinion is noise levels, lack of exhaust gases and mechanical simplicity/durability.
The disadvantages revolved almost entirely around the batteries.
in the case of the car though, I would accept an electric vehicle provided battery range was exceptionally good which would lesson the perils of running out and finding myself stranded.
Depending on the vehicle, the feedback through the gearbox, vibration and engine noise is actually a desirable characteristic as well which is also something removed from EV's.
Then there's the initial purchase price and subsequent depreciation.
300bhp/ton said:
@Max_Torque
I see you've avoided replying to my comments?
Can I have a go instead...?I see you've avoided replying to my comments?
300bhp/ton said:
300bhp/ton said:
Max_Torque said:
But that is only because you are applying your existing knowledge and expectations of IVE engineed vehicles to EV's. You consider ICE refuelling, but really, the only reason it needs to be fast is because you have to go somewhere specific to do it, and you only "refuel" when a light comes on.
I may be using existing knowledge, but to be fair that is the current limitation of the technology and nobody can foresee when there will be an unknown breakthrough.Personally I'm all for electric power and in things like RC planes and cars it's certainly the way to go and far superior to the IC ones IMO.
But for personal transport I think it is different. We don't always have time to plan ahead and it's just far too easy for things to happen that mean you are reactive (going and filling up when the light comes on) rather than proactive. IC engines give you both options, EV's don't.
300bhp/ton said:
Max_Torque said:
EV's aren't really like that. The vast majority of people spend no more than 2hrs a day in their cars, leaving 22 left to recharge it! Because you can install a recharging station at home, you don't wait till it's "empty" to recharge, you just leave it plugged in.
If you note, this was one of my points in my earlier post (although not the part about calling you an idiot).But the thing is, some people do spend more than 2 hours a day driving. Hence why I hate the blanket view it's such a good idea for everyone.
And critically and most importantly - NOT everyone can have a recharging station at home. Lots and lots and lots of people don't have off street parking. Which makes this completely unviable. And many people live in flats or park in areas that simply are either unsuitable or far too costly to install enough public charging points.
BTW, you will still be able to buy ICEV's for a long time to come. The shït really has stuck to that stupid EV blanket of yours...
300bhp/ton said:
Max_Torque said:
Personally, i like to get a good 8hrs sleep every night, plenty of time for my car to top itself up!
And what if your car is parked 50 yards down the road? And chances are you won't be able to park in the same place tomorrow? 
Max_Torque said:
Fast charging is only really useful for those unexpected trips or occasions (and these do happen) but the current crop of EVs are starting to offer 30min "fast" charges in emergencies. etc
Umm 30 min for how much juice though? I can fast charge lead acid 12v batteries, but 30 mins of charge time really isn't a lot of amps. Same is true with my LiPo, LiFePO4 and Li-ion ICR and IMR cells.And while I'm sure range will continue to increase on EV's, although part of this is just bigger capacity batteries, which will then need a longer charge time... But unexpected things can happen a lot, be it an emergency (someone hospitalised/in an accident but you can't go to them as the car still needs another 4 hours of charge first). Or something simple like forgetting to get some bread, but the car is flat and by the time it's charged the shops will be shut.
300bhp/ton said:
Max_Torque said:
The issue really is just one of familiarity. We have all spent the last 50 years driving ICE engined cars, and have adapted to them. We will just have to adapt to a slightly different way of thinking that's all!
Adapting is fine, so long as it isn't a backwards step. Start removing and reducing ability and function, and it's then a no brainier that it likely isn't the solution, just a compromise.McWigglebum4th said:
So you think that most people live within 3 miles of a town centre or over 30 miles away
So why does no one live 3 to 30 miles from a town centre?
I honestly don't know what you are either asking or talking about. So why does no one live 3 to 30 miles from a town centre?
All I said was that many people do not have off road parking, you came back willy waving that you have 2 acres and can park 30 cars.McWigglebum4th said:
I am curious to know why folk have such an utter hatred of the whole idea behind the electric car.
Why are they so angry about the idea that some day my crappy little petrol sipping shopping trolley will be replaced by one powered by electrons?
Do they really want the last gallon of petrol in the world to be used taking granny to the shops?
Well someone is certainly poking the bees nest. Why not mention cyclists to really stir things up? Why are they so angry about the idea that some day my crappy little petrol sipping shopping trolley will be replaced by one powered by electrons?
Do they really want the last gallon of petrol in the world to be used taking granny to the shops?
AER said:
You'll notice that electric power in RC planes hasn't eliminated IC engines. In fact more than ever are IC (SI gas) engines being used in RC aircraft. What electrickery has done is massively expand the market for RC planes (etc.) Your "blanket EV" hypothesis for EVs is, in fact, crap. Misguided as well. Noone is actually suggesting EV's will take over the world. EV's will however displace ICEVs in some sectors, but ICEV's will always be around whilst roads are maintained and petroleum is being pumped. EV's let you do things that ICV's do badly. Short commutes are where they shine now and in future, short will also become medium. Asking EV's to do longhaul is like trying to run a scheduled airline between continents with a PA28 or a DC3. Possible, but not very competitive. In summary, PHers should be celebrating the coming of the EV because it leaves more petrol for hooning.
You must be confusing my post with someone else. I have not stated any such blanket statement as my own thought.AER said:
When cars were first introduced, the early adopters had to visit their pharmacy to fill up from multiple glass bottles. It didn't stop ICEV's from being used nor from becoming extremely popular. So it is with EV's. What's inconvenient for you today will be done without thought tomorrow, because our capitalist society is like that. People make money by solving other peoples problems. It's likely you won't be the one making money out of charging EV's because you can't see beyond your own corneas how it could be done.
Wow lots of insults - well done 
Yet amazingly you missed some very obvious and rather critical points.Early cars where entirely new, and only for the very rich and/or very dedicated. An EV is not a revolution, but an extension of something that is more than well established.
And while it is possible technology may change to regards batteries and charging, it currently hasn't and there is no evidence it will soon. The simple fact is, charging a battery is a slow process. Filling up with petrol/diesel while 'on -route' is not.
But I dunno, maybe you are simply perfect and know exactly everything that will happen so can always plan in advance for any situation.
AER said:
BTW, you will still be able to buy ICEV's for a long time to come. The shït really has stuck to that stupid EV blanket of yours...
Are you a complete prat? If not, why make up stuff like this, as I have neither said nor hinted at anything remotely close to it AER said:
I'll bet you're so organised you've never had range anxiety in your ICEV with that irritating orange petrol pump lamp tormenting you from the dash and the next petrol station is quite possibly further than the dregs in the tank might take you? Eh? These situations will occur for all of us whether the car is fuelled by electricity, gasoline, or cow farts.
Ok I know this seems difficult for you to understand, as proof by your comment - but what you've just said is my EXACT f
king point The difference is, there are hundreds of petrol stations that can take less than 2 mins for a splash and dash refuel. Even if Max_Torque is correct and there are 30 min fast charge (not convinced on this). This still means you need to PARK for at least half an hour.
Ask yourself this, have you ever been to a busy petrol station and maybe had to wait 100 seconds before getting to a pump? Image what they'd be like if you needed 30mins - 1 hour to 're-fuel'. It could take you hours to get to a charging point and the physical site would need to be like a supermarket carpark in size.
AER said:
That's the amazing thing about a free market capitalist society. You get to choose what's best for you. Except you want to tell everyone that EV's are no good and we shouldn't be allowed to have them. I am waiting for the time I can purchase an EV. I think they are fantastic for most of the driving I do. I won't tolerate you telling me I can't have one.
Look fkwit I haven't said anything remotely close to this, so stop spouting such st and claiming it's what I said.My go ........ 
As a stand alone product, it would never survive on its own merits. Why, because the few advantages it offers are seriously outweighed by its significant extra disadvantages.
You go and buy one, but don’t be surprised with those continuing minimal EV sales and the huge majority of the buying public placing their cash in something more capable, effective and flexible.
AER said:
When cars were first introduced, the early adopters had to visit their pharmacy to fill up from multiple glass bottles. It didn't stop ICEV's from being used nor from becoming extremely popular. So it is with EV's. What's inconvenient for you today will be done without thought tomorrow, because our capitalist society is like that. People make money by solving other peoples problems. It's likely you won't be the one making money out of charging EV's because you can't see beyond your own corneas how it could be done.
BTW, you will still be able to buy ICEV's for a long time to come. The shït really has stuck to that stupid EV blanket of yours...
Not that tired old and poor analogy of when cars were first introduced.....Unfortunately, the EV is being introduced into a market place that already has cheap, effective and capable ICE powered alternatives. In many ways it is a retrograde step and a flawed and expensive product with a false green agenda. BTW, you will still be able to buy ICEV's for a long time to come. The shït really has stuck to that stupid EV blanket of yours...
AER said:
I'll bet you're so organised you've never had range anxiety in your ICEV with that irritating orange petrol pump lamp tormenting you from the dash and the next petrol station is quite possibly further than the dregs in the tank might take you? Eh? These situations will occur for all of us whether the car is fuelled by electricity, gasoline, or cow farts.
Serious barrel scraping.... A quick survey of why EV sales are poor is the major factor associated with range anxiety. Why should your average punter even buy an expensive product that only does 70 miles. Fortunately, unlike the EV zealots, they are not mugs and ask themselves why should I pay more for a car that does so much less. Even when the orange light comes on in the derv it still has a decent range remaining and more importantly a proven network of accessible rapid refuelling points. Currently when an EV does run out of juice on the motorway, there isn’t a 2km long cable to plug it into some kind pensioners 13 amp socket for 8 hours. Cue the recovery trailer. AER said:
That's the amazing thing about a free market capitalist society. You get to choose what's best for you. Except you want to tell everyone that EV's are no good and we shouldn't be allowed to have them. I am waiting for the time I can purchase an EV. I think they are fantastic for most of the driving I do. I won't tolerate you telling me I can't have one.
Unfortunately the EV doesn’t operate in a free market capitalist society. It only survives due to Govt interference, huge financial grants, subsidies, public funded infrastructure and legislation.As a stand alone product, it would never survive on its own merits. Why, because the few advantages it offers are seriously outweighed by its significant extra disadvantages.
You go and buy one, but don’t be surprised with those continuing minimal EV sales and the huge majority of the buying public placing their cash in something more capable, effective and flexible.
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