RE: Honda NSX - Detroit 2015
Discussion
forzaminardi said:
If PH were around in 1989, I think the comments around the original NSX would be virtually the same as appearing now about the NSX2:
- looks like a restyled pastiche of other contemporary junior supercars.
- lacks the desirability of a Ferrari/Porsche/insert some specialist non-mainstream car brand.
- who'd buy a £XXX,XXX Honda?
- not as powerful as a [insert another car from another manufacturer that costs considerably more]
- technologically impressive but lacking any emotional appeal.
- why bother, who's going to buy it?
The reality is that the original NSX is now regarded as a bona-fide classic and the true progenitor of the likes of the Ferrari 355 and successors, the Audi R8, and everyday useable 911s. The point of the car, like the original NSX, isn't to sell loads and loads, it is to showcase what Honda can do and act as a rallying point for the technological and engineering prowess of the company. Indeed, the lesson we can take from the experience of the first NSX is that the car was so advanced in concept that it's only in retrospect that we can see it's effect on the wider market. This of, course, adds to the value of Mk1 NSXs today, and is why the car is so highly regarded around the World. If the Mk2 does something similar (in a much more competitive market) then it will have been a success, even if like the original they only sell a small amount.
Spot on.- looks like a restyled pastiche of other contemporary junior supercars.
- lacks the desirability of a Ferrari/Porsche/insert some specialist non-mainstream car brand.
- who'd buy a £XXX,XXX Honda?
- not as powerful as a [insert another car from another manufacturer that costs considerably more]
- technologically impressive but lacking any emotional appeal.
- why bother, who's going to buy it?
The reality is that the original NSX is now regarded as a bona-fide classic and the true progenitor of the likes of the Ferrari 355 and successors, the Audi R8, and everyday useable 911s. The point of the car, like the original NSX, isn't to sell loads and loads, it is to showcase what Honda can do and act as a rallying point for the technological and engineering prowess of the company. Indeed, the lesson we can take from the experience of the first NSX is that the car was so advanced in concept that it's only in retrospect that we can see it's effect on the wider market. This of, course, adds to the value of Mk1 NSXs today, and is why the car is so highly regarded around the World. If the Mk2 does something similar (in a much more competitive market) then it will have been a success, even if like the original they only sell a small amount.
RobM77 said:
I agree with you about the market in general (which for any sports car is not made up by driving enthusiasts, but what Lotus amusingly call 'peacock buyers'), but in my opinion you're very wrong about car enthusiasts. I had a poster on my wall of an NSX in my teens and it was lavished with praise by the motoring press and those in the know. It was worshipped by car enthusiasts and was one of the key benchmark cars for the Mclaren F1 design in the early 90s.
Markets forces dear boy - 19,000 cars in 15 years is not a sales success. Honda are definitely more a company driven by engineering integrity rather than marketing strategy but even they have to make this car more relevant and sell more than its predecessor to justify it. The UK in particular wasn't in love with it due to the badge-snob factor; again, 400 cars in 15 years is pretty dire. People hated the interior for being plasticky and it wasn't the best in-class performer. I know it was benchmarked by Gordon Murray but that still doesn't mean it was loved by all the enthusiasts in its day - you seem to forget it was up against the 348 which is still regarded by many as a highly desirable Ferrari - at the time it was considered a "knock-off". All the appreciation came along later...
RobM77 said:
mrclav said:
forzaminardi said:
If PH were around in 1989, I think the comments around the original NSX would be virtually the same as appearing now about the NSX2:
- looks like a restyled pastiche of other contemporary junior supercars.
- lacks the desirability of a Ferrari/Porsche/insert some specialist non-mainstream car brand.
- who'd buy a £XXX,XXX Honda?
- not as powerful as a [insert another car from another manufacturer that costs considerably more]
- technologically impressive but lacking any emotional appeal.
- why bother, who's going to buy it?
The reality is that the original NSX is now regarded as a bona-fide classic and the true progenitor of the likes of the Ferrari 355 and successors, the Audi R8, and everyday useable 911s. The point of the car, like the original NSX, isn't to sell loads and loads, it is to showcase what Honda can do and act as a rallying point for the technological and engineering prowess of the company. Indeed, the lesson we can take from the experience of the first NSX is that the car was so advanced in concept that it's only in retrospect that we can see it's effect on the wider market. This of, course, adds to the value of Mk1 NSXs today, and is why the car is so highly regarded around the World. If the Mk2 does something similar (in a much more competitive market) then it will have been a success, even if like the original they only sell a small amount.
I think this is the most well-balanced argument on this thread.- looks like a restyled pastiche of other contemporary junior supercars.
- lacks the desirability of a Ferrari/Porsche/insert some specialist non-mainstream car brand.
- who'd buy a £XXX,XXX Honda?
- not as powerful as a [insert another car from another manufacturer that costs considerably more]
- technologically impressive but lacking any emotional appeal.
- why bother, who's going to buy it?
The reality is that the original NSX is now regarded as a bona-fide classic and the true progenitor of the likes of the Ferrari 355 and successors, the Audi R8, and everyday useable 911s. The point of the car, like the original NSX, isn't to sell loads and loads, it is to showcase what Honda can do and act as a rallying point for the technological and engineering prowess of the company. Indeed, the lesson we can take from the experience of the first NSX is that the car was so advanced in concept that it's only in retrospect that we can see it's effect on the wider market. This of, course, adds to the value of Mk1 NSXs today, and is why the car is so highly regarded around the World. If the Mk2 does something similar (in a much more competitive market) then it will have been a success, even if like the original they only sell a small amount.
Everyone is so quick forget the original NSX in its day was NOT regarded as a "classic" at all and the fact Honda couldn't shift even 19,000 of them worldwide over 15(!) years of production proves that; about 400 were sold in the UK at a cost equivalent to about £130-140k today. To get all rose-tinted about it now is a bit asinine as the world has moved on and like it or not, electric motors and turbos are here to stay. People better get used to the fact there will no longer be N/A VTEC screamers, cars will have a certain level of homogeny in their styling due to aerodynamics and yes, the car wasn't ever designed or styled for the UK - not that many in this country would buy it even if it was approved by the cognoscenti on here.
Personally I have total faith in Honda's engineering nous and this cars ability based on the technologies employed is already getting me excited. The only ways in which Honda really changed the game with the Mk1 was in relation to its reliability and handling, not its styling (particularly not its interior) or its outright performance in relation to its competitors. People didn't want to pay the price as "who'd spend that on a Honda/Acura"? From what I can see this car is essentially going to offer similar cutting-edge tech to cars like the P1, LaFerrari and Porsche's 918 for about a tenth of the cost - coupled great performance, reliability and a price less than it's forefather? I'd say that's a no-brainer win and definitely in keeping with the spirit of the original.
2015 is going to be a great year for sports cars!
My personal opinion is that you could tell a lot about someone who claims to be into cars enthusiast by their reaction if you told them you have a Honda NSX; the real enthusiast will be impressed, and fake enthusiast will say "a what?" or "ha ha, you spent £90 grand on a Honda?". I have to say, if I were a Euromillions winner, there are loads of cars I'd like to sample, but first on my list would be sourcing the best NSX I could find
forzaminardi said:
That's the point I was making; that despite all the naysayers, the original NSX was so far ahead of the contemporary competition that Ferrari et al need not have bothered turning up and it's classic status is predicated on the fact (in simple terms) it was completely brilliant but only about 4 were ever sold. If the new one performs a similar trick of being a fantastic car, then really so far as Honda's concerned it'll be 'job done'. I guess if by some fluke chance they sell loads of them then the fact of it being a commercial success will be a bonus.
My personal opinion is that you could tell a lot about someone who claims to be into cars enthusiast by their reaction if you told them you have a Honda NSX; the real enthusiast will be impressed, and fake enthusiast will say "a what?" or "ha ha, you spent £90 grand on a Honda?". I have to say, if I were a Euromillions winner, there are loads of cars I'd like to sample, but first on my list would be sourcing the best NSX I could find
I agree that the original was a great car. I also happen to think this new one with be just as great too, albeit for slightly different reasons!My personal opinion is that you could tell a lot about someone who claims to be into cars enthusiast by their reaction if you told them you have a Honda NSX; the real enthusiast will be impressed, and fake enthusiast will say "a what?" or "ha ha, you spent £90 grand on a Honda?". I have to say, if I were a Euromillions winner, there are loads of cars I'd like to sample, but first on my list would be sourcing the best NSX I could find
mrclav said:
RobM77 said:
I agree with you about the market in general (which for any sports car is not made up by driving enthusiasts, but what Lotus amusingly call 'peacock buyers'), but in my opinion you're very wrong about car enthusiasts. I had a poster on my wall of an NSX in my teens and it was lavished with praise by the motoring press and those in the know. It was worshipped by car enthusiasts and was one of the key benchmark cars for the Mclaren F1 design in the early 90s.
Markets forces dear boy - 19,000 cars in 15 years is not a sales success. Honda are definitely more a company driven by engineering integrity rather than marketing strategy but even they have to make this car more relevant and sell more than its predecessor to justify it. The UK in particular wasn't in love with it due to the badge-snob factor; again, 400 cars in 15 years is pretty dire. People hated the interior for being plasticky and it wasn't the best in-class performer. I know it was benchmarked by Gordon Murray but that still doesn't mean it was loved by all the enthusiasts in its day - you seem to forget it was up against the 348 which is still regarded by many as a highly desirable Ferrari - at the time it was considered a "knock-off". All the appreciation came along later...
RobM77 said:
Maybe we're mixing in different circles, but I distinctly remember the Testarossa and 348 being criticised heavily for their handling at the time and the NSX giving them both a wake up call.
I remember the comments being eerily similar to what the McLarens get now; in essence, undoubtably competent but rather lacking in character!What are the numbers please????
Is 1500kg at the kerb, 750bhp and 750lbft a reasonable (hopefull!!) guess
Why make it 550bhp system total, why match the GTR when you have two motors to assist
3.5l TT V6 say 550bhp and 100bhp at each front wheel from the motors. Could really push the boat out and make the motors inboard (less unsprung weight) and replace the front brakes altogether (even less unsprung weight) - for full re-gen.
Is 1500kg at the kerb, 750bhp and 750lbft a reasonable (hopefull!!) guess
Why make it 550bhp system total, why match the GTR when you have two motors to assist
3.5l TT V6 say 550bhp and 100bhp at each front wheel from the motors. Could really push the boat out and make the motors inboard (less unsprung weight) and replace the front brakes altogether (even less unsprung weight) - for full re-gen.
alexpa said:
What are the numbers please????
Is 1500kg at the kerb, 750bhp and 750lbft a reasonable (hopefull!!) guess
Why make it 550bhp system total, why match the GTR when you have two motors to assist
3.5l TT V6 say 550bhp and 100bhp at each front wheel from the motors. Could really push the boat out and make the motors inboard (less unsprung weight) and replace the front brakes altogether (even less unsprung weight) - for full re-gen.
To be fair they have stated 550+ so we are yet to get official performance figures. I for one am liking the aesthetics (apart from the chrome beak at the front) and am looking forward to see how it performs, I wish Honda the best of luck with this new NSX. However I'd like to echo what others have said in regards to Honda making a similar car minus the ground-breaking technology, AWD and paddle-shift (in the £50,000-65,000 please if possible). Not that I would be in the market for that right now but hopefully in the near future. Is 1500kg at the kerb, 750bhp and 750lbft a reasonable (hopefull!!) guess
Why make it 550bhp system total, why match the GTR when you have two motors to assist
3.5l TT V6 say 550bhp and 100bhp at each front wheel from the motors. Could really push the boat out and make the motors inboard (less unsprung weight) and replace the front brakes altogether (even less unsprung weight) - for full re-gen.
Surprised it took until the 4th page before the GTR was mentioned really. 4wd and 550bhp is very similar and with the next GTR rumoured to be going down the hybrid route aswell its the 90's all over again just at double/triple the pirce point.
Where's the supra now?
Where's the supra now?
Edited by dukebox9reg on Tuesday 13th January 12:26
It's probably worth bearing in mind that at its heart, Honda is an engine company first — it makes vehicles and machines around its engines be they sports cars, leaf-blowers or private jets. So, we should expect this to be a technical tour de force in the engine department both from a performance and durability perspective. Everything else might be a bit of an afterthought and a bit derivative.
mrclav said:
it wasn't the best in-class performer.
I know it was benchmarked by Gordon Murray but that still doesn't mean it was loved by all the enthusiasts in its day - you seem to forget it was up against the 348 which is still regarded by many as a highly desirable Ferrari - at the time it was considered a "knock-off". All the appreciation came along later...
I think you're misremembering. The NSX was a wake-up call and it cleaned up for a short time.I know it was benchmarked by Gordon Murray but that still doesn't mean it was loved by all the enthusiasts in its day - you seem to forget it was up against the 348 which is still regarded by many as a highly desirable Ferrari - at the time it was considered a "knock-off". All the appreciation came along later...
The first to win Autocar's handling challenge two years in a row. Other magazine reviewers said much the same. Here's one: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/porsche-91...
The NSX on the 'ring was also very close to the 360, I think?
It was the buyers' decision to ignore those initial plaudits and focus on their image (see that 'peacock' thing mentioned above) that led to poor sales. After that, it was Honda's decision not to develop the car significantly that led to the buying proposition being even more skewed against it.
Time will tell if enough of today's buyers are more open-minded.
mrclav said:
remember the comments being eerily similar to what the McLarens get now; in essence, undoubtably competent but rather lacking in character!
I have a feeling that if you were to design an utterly brilliant supercar from the ground up and then sell it to an OEM to market as their own, the amount of character reviewers perceived it to have would depend on which company had bought it.tim milne said:
It's probably worth bearing in mind that at its heart, Honda is an engine company first — it makes vehicles and machines around its engines be they sports cars, leaf-blowers or private jets. So, we should expect this to be a technical tour de force in the engine department both from a performance and durability perspective. Everything else might be a bit of an afterthought and a bit derivative.
Agree with this 100%. Which is why a lot of people (me included) have a great deal of respect and admiration for the company. As long as the dynamics are up to scratch (which I'm certain they will be) and retains that almost obsessive attention to detail they are known for, It will be an exceptional car.P.S. Nice to see another of the Milne clan around!
otolith said:
mrclav said:
remember the comments being eerily similar to what the McLarens get now; in essence, undoubtably competent but rather lacking in character!
I have a feeling that if you were to design an utterly brilliant supercar from the ground up and then sell it to an OEM to market as their own, the amount of character reviewers perceived it to have would depend on which company had bought it.thatdude said:
forzaminardi said:
The point of the car, like the original NSX, isn't to sell loads and loads, it is to showcase what Honda can do and act as a rallying point for the technological and engineering prowess of the company.
For further Honda Technology Showcase, I encourage people to read up on the Honda NR750 motorcycle. A very expensive bike, with 4 oval pistons, 32 valves and other tech (fancy dash, PGM fuel injection which at the time was a novel thing on bikes and probably loads of other tech). It was very expensive, very heavy, no more powerful than a bike a quarter of its price. But the tech was incredible and testament to what Honda engineers could achieve at the time.
mrclav said:
Honda are definitely more a company driven by engineering integrity rather than marketing strategy
They used to be, back in the 80s and 90s. Hopefully, this is a return to those roots, but the past 15 years have been pretty dire in terms of new product. Though I do wonder how all that technology will translate to a fun and involving drive. It, worryingly, sounds like it does it all for you.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff