RE: TVR's rebirth - can it work? PH Blog
Discussion
NRS said:
J4CKO said:
Not sure why it all has to be so hush hush ?
Its still in development, so they may need to change things as they go along. The last thing they want is to release something, then have to change it due to xyz reason and the public to go crazy - take for example the XJ220. I suspect another reason for keeping it hidden now is to get the reaction from deposit holders and modify the looks depending on that feedback. Thus reducing the "it doesn't look like the concept car" comments they would get if they changed it. However as a small company they want to keep some attention on themselves so they drip feed things like the covered car to keep their name in the press and hopefully to encourage more deposits/ investors.just want to know more, appreciate it takes time but I am impatient, even though I cant afford one.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. I don't think they will get those customers any more. That's why I don't think volume will be anywhere near what it used to be.
If this supposed 'new' means of manufacture doesn't solve the cost hurdle then it's a complete non starter. They have to be able to sell at a sensible price and still have a nice fat profit margin. But while they talk about carbon fibre and Cosworth engines, they have let slip that entry models will use cheaper composites and stock Ford engines. I suspect they plan to show images of a carbon fibre, dramatic, Le Mans racing behemoth while selling mostly non carbon fibre, non Cosworth, much plainer road cars for the most part.
Looking back at the final days of TVR, it wasn't their more expensive cars that killed them, it was their catastrophic inability to commercially react to the lower volumes that are caused by higher prices (ie Wheeler had stripped the company of cash and was reliant on a massive and cheap labour pool instead of investing in streamlining with technology) and combine a business with no foundations being hit by their farcical, self made engine woes then that was that. But they sold a decent number of £60k Sagarises in their final two years of existence and back in 2001 there were even more of us who put down deposits for the T440 and Typhon Le Mans cars and they were £85k before options 15 years ago.
Personally, if this iStream manufacturing process is any good I think they've got the right engine and they'll find enough buyers each year around the £70-£100k mark but only if it looks good. When you look at most comebacks you know instantly that they are going to fail regardless of anything else because they've made something that not even a mother could love. This car needs to look dramatic enough to be seen as a TVR but bland enough for owners to not be too self conscious pottering about in it. I think that is going to be the hardest trick to pull off.
yep = think you've nailed it there. If this supposed 'new' means of manufacture doesn't solve the cost hurdle then it's a complete non starter. They have to be able to sell at a sensible price and still have a nice fat profit margin. But while they talk about carbon fibre and Cosworth engines, they have let slip that entry models will use cheaper composites and stock Ford engines. I suspect they plan to show images of a carbon fibre, dramatic, Le Mans racing behemoth while selling mostly non carbon fibre, non Cosworth, much plainer road cars for the most part.
Looking back at the final days of TVR, it wasn't their more expensive cars that killed them, it was their catastrophic inability to commercially react to the lower volumes that are caused by higher prices (ie Wheeler had stripped the company of cash and was reliant on a massive and cheap labour pool instead of investing in streamlining with technology) and combine a business with no foundations being hit by their farcical, self made engine woes then that was that. But they sold a decent number of £60k Sagarises in their final two years of existence and back in 2001 there were even more of us who put down deposits for the T440 and Typhon Le Mans cars and they were £85k before options 15 years ago.
Personally, if this iStream manufacturing process is any good I think they've got the right engine and they'll find enough buyers each year around the £70-£100k mark but only if it looks good. When you look at most comebacks you know instantly that they are going to fail regardless of anything else because they've made something that not even a mother could love. This car needs to look dramatic enough to be seen as a TVR but bland enough for owners to not be too self conscious pottering about in it. I think that is going to be the hardest trick to pull off.
tonys said:
I've just had an idea - why don't I wait until I actually know something about the car before I pass judgement 
Am I interested in the final product? - yes.
Have I placed a deposit? - no.
Would I place a deposit? - possibly, once I know more about it.
Plenty of other V8 sports cars already available? There aren't many with the option of manual transmission.
Pretty much my thoughts. I did think about placing an initial deposit but no deposit protection, an unseen product and certainly at the time, very few concrete details and I wasn't willing to risk potentially throwing away 2.5k.Am I interested in the final product? - yes.
Have I placed a deposit? - no.
Would I place a deposit? - possibly, once I know more about it.
Plenty of other V8 sports cars already available? There aren't many with the option of manual transmission.
I wish them well and if it does work out I'm sure I'll regret not placing the initial monies but I'm very cautious and risk averse with my hard earned.
The only grumble I still have is that is it a TVR? IMHO no, it's a new sports car with a TVR badge stuck on the front.
ChilliWhizz said:
Nickbrapp said:
more than likely have a below standard finish and fit and most likely still made from bits of old boat
Hmm, the fit and finish on mine is rather good, despite it being hand built in a shed (and probably finished off on a Friday afternoon)... I also know every bit of the car, and have yet to recognise anything that resembles 'bits of old boat'Opinions based on pub talk eh, don't you just love it
tonys said:
The only grumble I still have is that is it a TVR? IMHO no, it's a new sports car with a TVR badge stuck on the front.
I wonder that as well. It would be nice to have a bit of the old DNA in there - perhaps some input from the designers of the previous models. They definitely had a few common styling cues, whether by design or necessity.73RS said:
I hope the dream comes true. It's a tough market out there as all the niche sports car makers will tell you. Remember it was the Boxster that killed TVR - secondhand they, and the Cayman, are blistering competition. Even Porsche is moving more and more production into SUVs.
Still, it's their money, so good on 'em.
Oh, and I always wanted to try a Sagaris.......
The opportunity I guess is that the TVR was just quick back then. All cars were quite involving still, or at least in recent memory and refinement was the new big thing that everyone wanted.Still, it's their money, so good on 'em.
Oh, and I always wanted to try a Sagaris.......
We've had a decade and a half of criminally boring cars since and whilst many still crown the Boxster as "the ultimate driver's car", others drive it and find themselves a bit redundant and the car uninspiring.
People have been hankering for some more involvement again for some time, particularly as everyday cars get more and more refined and less involving. Sadly all the "sports cars" have turned in to unspacious everyday cars - they offer all the benefits of a commuter car, and all the charisma of a commuter car. Different sports settings buttons and switchable exhausts etc attempt to bring these sports cars to life when the driver wants, but for some the familiarity breeds a contempt.
Toyota/Subaru have tried to address this with the skinny tyred GT86, but it's slow and looks a bit indifferent - heresy to say so to owners I'm sure, but for many hankering for more grass-roots sporty driving it misses the mark although certainly fills a space for some.
I'm optimistic the new TVR does have a small but important market. Dramatic looks and sound, good performance, comfortable and appealing interior all wrapped up in a driver-focussed no-nonsense and relatively light-weight package does appeal to some people, particularly with the blue-collar image TVR always had.
BJWoods said:
~185cm (doing a mincing footstep walk next to the car! ) it 'looks' (deceptively) wider than an f type, but mirrors don't stick out as much - not sure if mirrors will stay in same position.
car clinic customer preview should be fun. hope on not on holiday
I was told, by Les Edgar on the stand, that the car is 1900mm. He actually said "50mm wider than a Sagaris" which would be 1899mm ;-)car clinic customer preview should be fun. hope on not on holiday
I think the cover hanging off of the mirrors made it look at lot wider at the show.
He also said the first edition of the car would be for 500 units with deposits already taken for "400-ish", which could mean a lot of different things. After the first 500 they'd settle into a more normal production situation. Got the feeling that cars 501+ would be a lower spec'd version with a lower ticket price. Convertibles are, evidently, some way off.
WillS.
I wonder why they went with Ford engines?
I wonder if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage? That and naturally the Clarkson factor that it has pushrods and so is essentially a steam engine.
I only ask because the Ford 'Modular' lump is heavier, physically larger, higher centre of gravity, more complicated, less aftermarket support and more expensive than the LS (maybe even LT engines now, if they're available from GM yet, although possibly the expense option is out there?)
Plus the LS motors are higher capacity, and come on, that's just better...
I wonder if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage? That and naturally the Clarkson factor that it has pushrods and so is essentially a steam engine.
I only ask because the Ford 'Modular' lump is heavier, physically larger, higher centre of gravity, more complicated, less aftermarket support and more expensive than the LS (maybe even LT engines now, if they're available from GM yet, although possibly the expense option is out there?)
Plus the LS motors are higher capacity, and come on, that's just better...
WillS66 said:
I was told, by Les Edgar on the stand, that the car is 1900mm. He actually said "50mm wider than a Sagaris" which would be 1899mm ;-)
I think the cover hanging off of the mirrors made it look at lot wider at the show.
He also said the first edition of the car would be for 500 units with deposits already taken for "400-ish", which could mean a lot of different things. After the first 500 they'd settle into a more normal production situation. Got the feeling that cars 501+ would be a lower spec'd version with a lower ticket price. Convertibles are, evidently, some way off.
WillS.
with mirrors? - the mirrors may not be final location.I think the cover hanging off of the mirrors made it look at lot wider at the show.
He also said the first edition of the car would be for 500 units with deposits already taken for "400-ish", which could mean a lot of different things. After the first 500 they'd settle into a more normal production situation. Got the feeling that cars 501+ would be a lower spec'd version with a lower ticket price. Convertibles are, evidently, some way off.
WillS.
whatever it is sensible size, definitely shorter than an F-Type, or Vantage
SturdyHSV said:
... if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage?
These attributes give the new TVR team a sort of turnkey distinction. Heritage in a box, if you will.On all the points offered in your complete post, I reckon you're right.
My first car was a Lotus 7 with a Ford Cosworth engine... I bought it from Caterham Car Sales in 1969.. About a year after owning the car I went to work for Caterham, who were at that time also a TVR agent.... The TVR's arrived at Caterham with either the Ford 1600 XFlow or 3litre V6 Ford lumps... (to be assembled by Caterham or the owner).. Some years later I bought a Sierra RS Cosworth..
I only mention this because the (historical) relationships between Cosworth and Ford, and TVR and Ford, coupled with the racing history that Cosworth and Ford have, just does it for me
I might be a nostalgic old fart, but a TVR with a Ford Cosworth engine just seems so right
I only mention this because the (historical) relationships between Cosworth and Ford, and TVR and Ford, coupled with the racing history that Cosworth and Ford have, just does it for me
I might be a nostalgic old fart, but a TVR with a Ford Cosworth engine just seems so right WillS66 said:
I was told, by Les Edgar on the stand, that the car is 1900mm. He actually said "50mm wider than a Sagaris" which would be 1899mm ;-)
I think the cover hanging off of the mirrors made it look at lot wider at the show.
He also said the first edition of the car would be for 500 units with deposits already taken for "400-ish", which could mean a lot of different things. After the first 500 they'd settle into a more normal production situation. Got the feeling that cars 501+ would be a lower spec'd version with a lower ticket price. Convertibles are, evidently, some way off.
WillS.
I think the cover hanging off of the mirrors made it look at lot wider at the show.
He also said the first edition of the car would be for 500 units with deposits already taken for "400-ish", which could mean a lot of different things. After the first 500 they'd settle into a more normal production situation. Got the feeling that cars 501+ would be a lower spec'd version with a lower ticket price. Convertibles are, evidently, some way off.
WillS.
Pretty sure my car is wider than a Sag. Certainly looks so when parked next to each other. But the above says its 1850.
The car does tend to look large(ish) when parked among other TVRs but when you park it next to modern stuff it is much narrower.
SturdyHSV said:
I wonder why they went with Ford engines?
I wonder if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage? That and naturally the Clarkson factor that it has pushrods and so is essentially a steam engine.
I only ask because the Ford 'Modular' lump is heavier, physically larger, higher centre of gravity, more complicated, less aftermarket support and more expensive than the LS (maybe even LT engines now, if they're available from GM yet, although possibly the expense option is out there?)
Plus the LS motors are higher capacity, and come on, that's just better...
Well, there's several cheap, bolt on tuning options already available in the States, including Superchargers. I've no problem with it being a ford lump rather than vauxhall I wonder if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage? That and naturally the Clarkson factor that it has pushrods and so is essentially a steam engine.
I only ask because the Ford 'Modular' lump is heavier, physically larger, higher centre of gravity, more complicated, less aftermarket support and more expensive than the LS (maybe even LT engines now, if they're available from GM yet, although possibly the expense option is out there?)
Plus the LS motors are higher capacity, and come on, that's just better...
SturdyHSV said:
I wonder why they went with Ford engines?
I wonder if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage? That and naturally the Clarkson factor that it has pushrods and so is essentially a steam engine.
I only ask because the Ford 'Modular' lump is heavier, physically larger, higher centre of gravity, more complicated, less aftermarket support and more expensive than the LS (maybe even LT engines now, if they're available from GM yet, although possibly the expense option is out there?)
Plus the LS motors are higher capacity, and come on, that's just better...
I think that there is good heritage between TVR and Ford engines. Plus, Ford has an amazing engine record in the UK from Le Mans winners to F1 and lots of great heritage from Cosworth etc. I wonder if it was just to distance themselves from everyone else using the LS motor, and so they could put a Cosworth label on it with some Ford heritage? That and naturally the Clarkson factor that it has pushrods and so is essentially a steam engine.
I only ask because the Ford 'Modular' lump is heavier, physically larger, higher centre of gravity, more complicated, less aftermarket support and more expensive than the LS (maybe even LT engines now, if they're available from GM yet, although possibly the expense option is out there?)
Plus the LS motors are higher capacity, and come on, that's just better...
Yes, this engine is heavier, more complex and expensive than the LS but you cannot under estimate the stigma that would have to be overcome by using an LS, regardless of just how brilliant an engine it is. They know that no new TVR will be cheap and sticking an LS in to save a few £k would have resulted in not being able to push the price up where they need it to be and would also have lost them a vast number of potential buyers. With the new car easily going to be capable of touching £100k there isn't really anyone in that price arena who would be interested in an LS powered car in sufficiently commercial numbers. I think they've been very clever using Ford and then adding the branding overlay of the legendary name Cosworth. Plus, with Cosworth's recent failure to float and not having the best of runs at the moment I bet they have cost less than might be expected and been more keen to see a small client succeed than TVR might have found with other firms.
scorcher said:
allroad one said:
Either way, it's a bloody 90's TVR, no one in their right mind is gonna pay more than £27000 for a new one, no matter how appealing it is. I hope this is some sort of joke?
Str8six have just sold their 2003 Cerbera for a fair bit more than £27K. (I Think it was up for £32K).You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Edited by scorcher on Monday 9th May 09:34
tonys said:
Plenty of other V8 sports cars already available? There aren't many with the option of manual transmission.
Or a kerb weight in the region of 1100-1300kg....What's interesting about the classic car market is people are buying into the whole 'raw and connected' driving experience. With all the established manufacturers making increasingly more polished and disconnected 'drivers cars'. I can definitely see a market for this TVR globally.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Just spotted this on another thread in GG this morning. V8, manual, composite body - sounds familiar!
]
We know you prefer mass-produced cars. You tell us constantly. I personally am very happy for you. I am envious of you infact. I wish I could find such complete satisfaction in mass-market stuff designed for Mr Average. You're a lucky man.]
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