RE: British-built track specials: Market Watch
Discussion
nickfrog said:
As patiently explained to you, track miles don't equate road miles. Any track day billy will confirm that - think about it.
No one is pretending anything. People compare like for like and have experienced very low per track mile depreciation - live with it mate.
In terms of actual depreciation (as opposed to consumables), track day miles don't cost any more than road miles.No one is pretending anything. People compare like for like and have experienced very low per track mile depreciation - live with it mate.
Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
Equus said:
nickfrog said:
As patiently explained to you, track miles don't equate road miles. Any track day billy will confirm that - think about it.
No one is pretending anything. People compare like for like and have experienced very low per track mile depreciation - live with it mate.
In terms of actual depreciation (as opposed to consumables), track day miles don't cost any more than road miles.No one is pretending anything. People compare like for like and have experienced very low per track mile depreciation - live with it mate.
Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
Equus said:
In terms of actual depreciation (as opposed to consumables), track day miles don't cost any more than road miles.
Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
For someone that has apparently owned sevens you're not coming across that well! Perhaps you could step away from your personal issues with people owning things you don't see the value in, perhaps stop contributing to a thread where everyone apart from you seems to appreciate why these cars exist, why people (mugs I think you said) buy and enjoy them?Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
Stop sucking the joy out of this and take your bloody misery cloud elsewhere. Nobody cares.
GFWilliams said:
I now have a V6 Exige which IMO is just as much at home on a track as my Caterham, and that realistically I've lost £5k on since I bought it in November. Until I sell it I don't honestly care, I absolutely love the car and that enjoyment is greater than the amount it's costing me and as long as that is the case I'll keep the car.
How do you find the Exige as a road car? Is it something you'd happily take on an alpine tour, or would it be too wearisome on the motorways? As a biker I have quite a high discomfort threshold so I am able to put in earplugs and suffer a numb bum; I assume in that context it's perfectly ok?Robert-nszl1 said:
How do you find the Exige as a road car? Is it something you'd happily take on an alpine tour, or would it be too wearisome on the motorways? As a biker I have quite a high discomfort threshold so I am able to put in earplugs and suffer a numb bum; I assume in that context it's perfectly ok?
ideal for an Alpine tour. Seats and suspension are great.Make sure AC works, small cockpit increases heat.
Roof comes off the Elise of course.
done many multi-hour stints, no problems. Ear plugs not absolutely essential as with a Caterham, but strongly advised for long term hearing!
Robert-nszl1 said:
Actus Reus said:
Just bought a VX220 Turbo - maybe I'm kidding myself, but I don't think I'll lose anything on it.
It's also British built, quick and suitable for the track. What do I win?
Yes but it's not a young car, and if you drive it hard it will get through tyres etc etc and before that you will sort the 'niggles' or worse. And after you have insured it and taxed it, you find yourself strangely lighter in pocket.....but hey you won't actually lose anything.....It's also British built, quick and suitable for the track. What do I win?
Equus said:
I agree ABSOLUTELY! 
So why pretend that residual value is one of their strengths, when it isn't?
Why not simply acknowledge that they cost a f
k of a lot to run, per mile, and that you accept that as the price of your enjoyment?
Why try to kid yourself, and others?
So why pretend that residual value is one of their strengths, when it isn't?
Why not simply acknowledge that they cost a f
k of a lot to run, per mile, and that you accept that as the price of your enjoyment?Why try to kid yourself, and others?
A new Lotus 7 in 1961 would have been around £400 today its £34,000 http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l... Dont click on the link there is no residuals there then!
I don't think anyone is kidding themselves, and no a 7 doesn't actually cost a lot to run.
yonex said:
Equus said:
In terms of actual depreciation (as opposed to consumables), track day miles don't cost any more than road miles.
Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
For someone that has apparently owned sevens you're not coming across that well! Perhaps you could step away from your personal issues with people owning things you don't see the value in, perhaps stop contributing to a thread where everyone apart from you seems to appreciate why these cars exist, why people (mugs I think you said) buy and enjoy them?Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
Stop sucking the joy out of this and take your bloody misery cloud elsewhere. Nobody cares.
Robert-nszl1 said:
How do you find the Exige as a road car? Is it something you'd happily take on an alpine tour, or would it be too wearisome on the motorways? As a biker I have quite a high discomfort threshold so I am able to put in earplugs and suffer a numb bum; I assume in that context it's perfectly ok?
Took my Elise SC on an Alpine tour. It's a bit loud/fidgety on the motorway; especially in the wet it's not exactly relaxing. Totally brilliant once you're on good roads, though, obviously - makes it all well worth it.Biggest issue if the weather is even vaguely warm for long distances is the aluminium tub and the coolant pipes that run through in next to you.
SpudLink said:
AdamIndy said:
If you can afford to go full retard and buy a 620R/zenos/Atom/Radical etc then more power to you! Can I have a go mister?
Full retard? That'll be me then. 
Some very strange chat on here about this.
Bottom line for me is - buy what ever takes your fancy, as long as it's affordable to you. If you're going to track it a lot then the costs will go up in line with the amount of track time. A lot of that is dependent on the car you pick, some are heavy on fuel brakes and tyres, others not so heavy. As for depreciation, that's a lot of guesswork with no guarantees of anything, although Atoms and Caterhams do seem to hold their value well, nobody can be 100% sure.
Personally I ignore the future value thing, if I have a big crash on track I'm going to lose out money-wise that's for sure. Trackday cover comes with a very big excess.
Currently I have two track 'toys' one car, one bike. I'd have more if it was affordable, it's a bit of a part time hobby - I don't do much else.
Andy665 said:
Typically elitist article that is irrelevant to most people.
A car like this is a "toy" and needs to be justified. I'm currently looking at Westfields, mainly for road use but will be used on track may be 3-4 times per year. My budget is not unreasonable for a "toy" but would not get closer to the cheapest car here.
many Westfields (and Tiger Avons, Raws etc) are built to very high standards and whilst not being as capable as the much more expensive machinery you look at will still have abilities beyond the dreams of most of us
So, because i cant even afford a much cheaper toy like you can, does that make you an elitist ? Think it just makes you very fA car like this is a "toy" and needs to be justified. I'm currently looking at Westfields, mainly for road use but will be used on track may be 3-4 times per year. My budget is not unreasonable for a "toy" but would not get closer to the cheapest car here.
many Westfields (and Tiger Avons, Raws etc) are built to very high standards and whilst not being as capable as the much more expensive machinery you look at will still have abilities beyond the dreams of most of us
king stupid Edited by Tryke3 on Tuesday 14th February 14:54
Krikkit said:
corozin said:
Re the price of the BAC, the amusing thing about all of this is that a few years ago I saw a Mosler GT race car on sale for £120,000. My point is that if you've got that much money for a track toy why wouldn't you just go and buy a real racing car? You'll be trailering it anyway.
Running costs? The mono is relatively tame in engine and suspension tech, rebuilding a set of dampers, or replacing the lifed suspension uprights etc of a full race car compared to a track/road car will be prohibitively expensive.Even saloon/hatchback-based cars are expensive to run in a full race spec.
Plus you would never get a Mosler/F4/Formula Renault car out at a normal track day - you'd have to go out on race test days and mix it up with some highly expensive and very fast machinery.
A sports 2000 duratec for example - does Castle Combe in 1:06.something...... Ferrari 458 Speciale does a 1:13 or so with Steve Sutcliffe driving it hard. You can get one of them for 25-30k easily.
True you can't take them on trackdays, but racecar test days can be as little as £100 more than a track day anyway.
Also true you're on track with whatever happens to be there - but in my first season (only last year!), i found the intimidation quickly falls away and it's fun. The higher standard of driver, the more predictable there are too - have shared track with Group C cars (Lancia LC2!), Can Ams, classic F1 and many GT3, GT4 and BTCC cars - none of this "indicate to pass" nonsense either!
It's a different direction, and you need either someone to run you or a very different attitude for maintenance (race cars need checking, bolts tightened, etc - every session; factory built track cars don't) - but it's faster, and more fun.
Challenge then comes that of course you'll want to go proper racing, and then it will just consume as much money as you can ever throw into it.....
Toaster said:
yonex said:
Equus said:
In terms of actual depreciation (as opposed to consumables), track day miles don't cost any more than road miles.
Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
For someone that has apparently owned sevens you're not coming across that well! Perhaps you could step away from your personal issues with people owning things you don't see the value in, perhaps stop contributing to a thread where everyone apart from you seems to appreciate why these cars exist, why people (mugs I think you said) buy and enjoy them?Or are you trying to tell me that when you come to sell your cars, you figure the price on the basis of purchase price less £0.50/per mile for track use and £0.10 per mile for road use?
When it comes to sell, the car is always one careful owner, never tracked or raced.
What track miles do is increase the running costs, but you're obviously either not bright enough to recognise the difference between running costs and depreciation, or so self-delusional that you refuse to accept it.
Stop sucking the joy out of this and take your bloody misery cloud elsewhere. Nobody cares.
cidered77 said:
The higher standard of driver, the more predictable there are too - have shared track with Group C cars (Lancia LC2!), Can Ams, classic F1 and many GT3, GT4 and BTCC cars - none of this "indicate to pass" nonsense either!
You may be right...but I've seen 'racers' using trackdays as test-sessions and not caring for trackday rules / other drivers...I was driving a Caterham Superlight at Donington a few years ago (neither car nor circuit new to me), and some idiot in a Vectra Touring Car (clearly testing, on slicks) tried to go up the inside of me at Starkeys. For some reason I did a lifesaver over my left shoulder just before turn-in, which was the only reason I didn't end up somewhere inside his front bumper. Did end up out of shape trying to keep the car off the grass on the outside mind...and nearly needed the spare set of underwear that I hadn't brought with me...
Had an instructor out for that session thankfully, and funnily enough the Vectra didn't come back out after that...
(All of which is me trying to point out that ability doesn't equal care/consideration, and if you give an idiot a racing car he'll think he's a racing driver!)
i've had one of the best UK made track specials, a Gardner Douglas T70. 900kg spaceframe chassis, race brakes, dry sump LS v8, fabulous trackday cars, you can also go road legal with it if you wish. the famous nurburgring video of the 650+bhp one:
https://youtu.be/4MZ3Rbhui7c
https://youtu.be/4MZ3Rbhui7c
200Plus Club said:
i've had one of the best UK made track specials, a Gardner Douglas T70. 900kg spaceframe chassis, race brakes, dry sump LS v8, fabulous trackday cars, you can also go road legal with it if you wish. the famous nurburgring video of the 650+bhp one:
https://youtu.be/4MZ3Rbhui7c
This segment is set to growhttps://youtu.be/4MZ3Rbhui7c
track days are still growing and introducing more people to the joys of circuit driving. Most people don't realise just how unsuited road cars are to the track (with mods,.....and more mods) and just how good focused 'toys' really are. But once they're hooked it's a natural migration to lighter and trailers. In fact it's the upgrade i'm thinking of, test days with a single seater. FF's start at 5k and nice ones are still below 10k.
no doubt i'll be the slowest again...
havoc said:
cidered77 said:
The higher standard of driver, the more predictable there are too - have shared track with Group C cars (Lancia LC2!), Can Ams, classic F1 and many GT3, GT4 and BTCC cars - none of this "indicate to pass" nonsense either!
You may be right...but I've seen 'racers' using trackdays as test-sessions and not caring for trackday rules / other drivers...I was driving a Caterham Superlight at Donington a few years ago (neither car nor circuit new to me), and some idiot in a Vectra Touring Car (clearly testing, on slicks) tried to go up the inside of me at Starkeys. For some reason I did a lifesaver over my left shoulder just before turn-in, which was the only reason I didn't end up somewhere inside his front bumper. Did end up out of shape trying to keep the car off the grass on the outside mind...and nearly needed the spare set of underwear that I hadn't brought with me...
Had an instructor out for that session thankfully, and funnily enough the Vectra didn't come back out after that...
(All of which is me trying to point out that ability doesn't equal care/consideration, and if you give an idiot a racing car he'll think he's a racing driver!)
I think racers on trackdays is just wrong - and dangerous. Racers on test days - at least then you *know* you can overtake (or be overtaken) wherever, so there is no ambiguity out there at all.
So far touch wood standard has been generally excellent for me on test days - and some magical moments too (chasing a Porsche 935, being overtaken by an Arrows F1 car, sticking with Sam Tordoff for a bit, etc)
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