Morgan / Peugeot whoopsie
Discussion
Bennet said:
It's been interesting reading the three discussions on this topic.
It's a phenomenon seen on Pistonheads many times before. It seems to me that a certain subsection of forum members (and no doubt humankind in general) lack sufficient mental faculties to entertain two thoughts simultaneously.
In this example:
Thought 1 - it was primarily the Morgan's fault. He was the one breaking a fundamental rule of the road.
Thought 2 - the Peugeot could possibly have reduced or even narrowly avoided the collision altogether if they'd reacted differently.
Unfortunately, even though a great many posts express both sentiments simultaneously, some PH members just cannot hold #1 in their head and whilst processing #2. So you end up with selective quoting and obtuse responses hammering on about a point the first poster was already demonstrably in agreement with in the preceding sentence.
I believe it's for this reason that everyone from politicians to biscuit companies have to go to such embarrassing lengths to express their thoughts in very clear, simple terms when dealing with any kind of sensitive or inflammatory subject - because the intellectually stunted cannot process complex lines of argument comprising of more than one idea.
Very well put. It's a phenomenon seen on Pistonheads many times before. It seems to me that a certain subsection of forum members (and no doubt humankind in general) lack sufficient mental faculties to entertain two thoughts simultaneously.
In this example:
Thought 1 - it was primarily the Morgan's fault. He was the one breaking a fundamental rule of the road.
Thought 2 - the Peugeot could possibly have reduced or even narrowly avoided the collision altogether if they'd reacted differently.
Unfortunately, even though a great many posts express both sentiments simultaneously, some PH members just cannot hold #1 in their head and whilst processing #2. So you end up with selective quoting and obtuse responses hammering on about a point the first poster was already demonstrably in agreement with in the preceding sentence.
I believe it's for this reason that everyone from politicians to biscuit companies have to go to such embarrassing lengths to express their thoughts in very clear, simple terms when dealing with any kind of sensitive or inflammatory subject - because the intellectually stunted cannot process complex lines of argument comprising of more than one idea.
Mr2Mike said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
Its pretty easy to use horn and brake hard, I've done it when I've seen car go to pull out in a similar situation, hopefully the horn alerted them I was there, hence they only part pulled out so I could swerve round them.
This. I'm confused by the mentality of some that seem to think horn and brakes are are an either/or option.Olivera said:
Mr2Mike said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
Its pretty easy to use horn and brake hard, I've done it when I've seen car go to pull out in a similar situation, hopefully the horn alerted them I was there, hence they only part pulled out so I could swerve round them.
This. I'm confused by the mentality of some that seem to think horn and brakes are are an either/or option.CYMR0 said:
A lot of the tone seems to focus on what the Peugeot could have done and normalises that kind of exceptional response and even expects it, hence the implicit criticism (and the response of others pushing back on that criticism).
I think that's an excellent point and well observed.I also think there's a certain amount of danger in allowing driving to a high standard and reacting positively to a developing emergency to be labelled "exceptional" because "exceptional" is easily conflated with "excellent" and brings "normal" or "average" in line with "acceptable" or even "good".
(Though like you, I've no way of knowing how I'd have fared either.)
Lance Catamaran said:
Olivera said:
Mr2Mike said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
Its pretty easy to use horn and brake hard, I've done it when I've seen car go to pull out in a similar situation, hopefully the horn alerted them I was there, hence they only part pulled out so I could swerve round them.
This. I'm confused by the mentality of some that seem to think horn and brakes are are an either/or option.Olivera said:
How do you press the horn for an extended period of time and simultaneously maintain two hands on the wheel in the normal position for maximum car control?
With my hands at opposite sides of the steering wheel, gripping firmly with all fingers, I can safely extend a thumb to the horn?Do the muppets suggesting that this is an either/or thing believe that the horn only functions when you remove both hands from the steering wheel and apply them, open-palmed to the horn as if trying to buzz a gameshow buzzer?
Olivera said:
Lance Catamaran said:
Olivera said:
Mr2Mike said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
Its pretty easy to use horn and brake hard, I've done it when I've seen car go to pull out in a similar situation, hopefully the horn alerted them I was there, hence they only part pulled out so I could swerve round them.
This. I'm confused by the mentality of some that seem to think horn and brakes are are an either/or option.Lance Catamaran said:
Useyour thumb to press the button whilst keeping your hands on the wheel
That's an odd way of pressing the horn, so rather unlikely. If they did use that method then it's certainly going to reduce steering control with the thumbs off the wheel and stretching across.L500 said:
This happened at a very nice monthly classic car event in the car park of White Lion Antiques, just outside Hartley Wintney. It's a dangerous road and hotspot for incident. The Mog is turning right towards HW. Cars coming from his right are often speeding up as it opens into a dual carriageway soon after the antique shop - so you have to have your wits about you.
The Pug is coming down a very fast dual carriageway hill (from Blackbushe), going into single file right at the scene of this accident. It's a dangerous, and complicated junction for those who don't use it often. Not saying the Mog wasn't at fault, but I am saying it was an accident in an accident hotspot that hopefully the local authority will now do something about it. Could have been far worse.
The "Fast Dual carriageway" you mention is now forty mph and single lane all the way from the blackbush roundabout (unless the authorities have come to there senses and reset it to NSL). There is no way on earth the 206 was only doing 40 - it would have been going far more slowly if it had been. The Pug is coming down a very fast dual carriageway hill (from Blackbushe), going into single file right at the scene of this accident. It's a dangerous, and complicated junction for those who don't use it often. Not saying the Mog wasn't at fault, but I am saying it was an accident in an accident hotspot that hopefully the local authority will now do something about it. Could have been far worse.
If the authorities had left that road well alone the accident wouldn't have happened. There would have been room for the Peugeot to swerve, and chances are the Morgan would have thought twice about pulling out like that. s
t driving all round IMO. Just shows though, all the safety improvements and increases in journey time as a consequence of them have achieved exactly nothing. They'd have been better of making that junction left turn only, its only a couple of miles up to the roundabout and back. Olivera said:
How do you press the horn for an extended period of time and simultaneously maintain two hands on the wheel in the normal position for maximum car control?
Every car I have owned in the last ten or fifteen years has a horn push on the steering wheel that can be easily pressed with a thumb whilst maintaining grip on the wheel. This is not just a happy coincidence, they have been designed this way.Are you perhaps missing your thumbs, or maybe you drive something from the 1920's that requires a rubber bulb to be squeezed?
Bennet said:
It's been interesting reading the three discussions on this topic.
It's a phenomenon seen on Pistonheads many times before. It seems to me that a certain subsection of forum members (and no doubt humankind in general) lack sufficient mental faculties to entertain two thoughts simultaneously.
In this example:
Thought 1 - it was primarily the Morgan's fault. He was the one breaking a fundamental rule of the road.
Thought 2 - the Peugeot could possibly have reduced or even narrowly avoided the collision altogether if they'd reacted differently.
Unfortunately, even though a great many posts express both sentiments simultaneously, some PH members just cannot hold #1 in their head and whilst processing #2. So you end up with selective quoting and obtuse responses hammering on about a point the first poster was already demonstrably in agreement with in the preceding sentence.
I believe it's for this reason that everyone from politicians to biscuit companies have to go to such embarrassing lengths to express their thoughts in very clear, simple terms when dealing with any kind of sensitive or inflammatory subject - because the intellectually stunted cannot process complex lines of argument comprising of more than one idea.
We probably don't need a Thought 3 then such as whether the Morgan should have been able to assess how badly things were going and dive off right into the hatched part of the road. It's a phenomenon seen on Pistonheads many times before. It seems to me that a certain subsection of forum members (and no doubt humankind in general) lack sufficient mental faculties to entertain two thoughts simultaneously.
In this example:
Thought 1 - it was primarily the Morgan's fault. He was the one breaking a fundamental rule of the road.
Thought 2 - the Peugeot could possibly have reduced or even narrowly avoided the collision altogether if they'd reacted differently.
Unfortunately, even though a great many posts express both sentiments simultaneously, some PH members just cannot hold #1 in their head and whilst processing #2. So you end up with selective quoting and obtuse responses hammering on about a point the first poster was already demonstrably in agreement with in the preceding sentence.
I believe it's for this reason that everyone from politicians to biscuit companies have to go to such embarrassing lengths to express their thoughts in very clear, simple terms when dealing with any kind of sensitive or inflammatory subject - because the intellectually stunted cannot process complex lines of argument comprising of more than one idea.
ive watched this vid a few times now, there isnt a lot of time between the Morgan going and the Peugeot hitting the back of them, I really don't see the issue with the Peugeot 206 and the beeping of the horn.
Reaction time will be about 1-2 seconds on seeing some idiot pull out in front of you.
Hand can hit horn pretty quickly when its close, foot was on brake.
Its a bloody old 206, ABS will be non existant on that base model, shocks will be worn but servicable, tyres will be no doubt cheap n cheerfuls, brakes will be adequate but not to GTI standards.
He can't swerve as we have seen, the reaction time to look to the right to see if there is on coming traffic, available space to move into and by that time its all over.
Here is my story of what happens in a no win situation, the copper I talked to said it was 100% not my fault having explained the situation to him.
Workling late one night, light drizzle on the M60, had a V reg Astra G courtesy car from the main dealer whilst my Astra van was in for a brake recall (looking back at 1999 here).
Driving back home at around 2am, passed some young lad with his g/f in his Toyota Celica (in red, G reg if i remember), anyway, passed him at 60-65mph, pulled in after giving adiquate room, he then overtakes me and pulls back in slowing down (yup my 1.6 8v astra is a beast!!).
So boy racer showing off to his g/f and I was still chugging along at 60-65mph as I had the next day off and couldnt be bothered with anything else.
Just up in front the M56 joins the M60, Audi Quattro enters and boy racer goes flying after it (remember its light drizzle and has been for a few hours).
Gets to Stockport (this is pre 3 lane motorway for anyone expecting 3 lanes here, 2 and a hard shoulder), dip in the road and it goes slightly up hill to the bridge near PC World and St Mary's way.....
Well....
I spot these lights in front of me, foot off accellerator, not on the brakes (me or these lights in front), in the left lane, notice its a parked car (no hazard lights, no foot on brake lights, its still drizzling), hits brakes, looks right to swerve around car, sees boy racer and g/f stuck nose first in the central reservation barrier....
I went from about 60 to around mid to high 40's into the back of a Vectra Estate who had stopped, not on the hard shoulder or the outside lane where the accident was, but the bloody left hand lane, essentially blocking the road.
Car had NO ABS, braking took a little while then nose went DOWN, crunched the estate and made it lose a foot or two whilst my (hire) car went under the sensors for the airbag and broke a few of my ribs...
At this time the 3 people were STILL sitting in their cars, not one muppet got out to slow the traffic, note im now in pain and out of the car, flagging traffic down thats coming up the road, im also the only one who calls the police to say the m/way is blocked.
I "JUST" get a Volvo 740 estate to stop (he is fitted with ABS) by waving my arms frantically so he sees me, he stopped about 1 foot from the back of my astra.
Moral of this story, you cannot blame the other driver for anything as you were not in the situation.
On a bright note, having told the copper about the kid racing the Audi Quattro etc the cop told me this.
His 5th and final night (unmarked Volvo btw), first 4 nights of nothing, that night, 1 drink driver and this young lad and his girlfriend, seems he forgot to purchase any insurance for his car, they were just waiting for the van to arrive so they could spend a nice cosy night in the cells lol.
Last funny bit, recovery driver puts Vectra on his wagon then the astra, asks where I want it delivering, I point in the distance at the Vauxhall garage and said "just there, its a courtesy car", he replied, oh, we are just behind there!
(Vauxhall were not too fussed, their insurance paid out).
Reaction time will be about 1-2 seconds on seeing some idiot pull out in front of you.
Hand can hit horn pretty quickly when its close, foot was on brake.
Its a bloody old 206, ABS will be non existant on that base model, shocks will be worn but servicable, tyres will be no doubt cheap n cheerfuls, brakes will be adequate but not to GTI standards.
He can't swerve as we have seen, the reaction time to look to the right to see if there is on coming traffic, available space to move into and by that time its all over.
Here is my story of what happens in a no win situation, the copper I talked to said it was 100% not my fault having explained the situation to him.
Workling late one night, light drizzle on the M60, had a V reg Astra G courtesy car from the main dealer whilst my Astra van was in for a brake recall (looking back at 1999 here).
Driving back home at around 2am, passed some young lad with his g/f in his Toyota Celica (in red, G reg if i remember), anyway, passed him at 60-65mph, pulled in after giving adiquate room, he then overtakes me and pulls back in slowing down (yup my 1.6 8v astra is a beast!!).
So boy racer showing off to his g/f and I was still chugging along at 60-65mph as I had the next day off and couldnt be bothered with anything else.
Just up in front the M56 joins the M60, Audi Quattro enters and boy racer goes flying after it (remember its light drizzle and has been for a few hours).
Gets to Stockport (this is pre 3 lane motorway for anyone expecting 3 lanes here, 2 and a hard shoulder), dip in the road and it goes slightly up hill to the bridge near PC World and St Mary's way.....
Well....
I spot these lights in front of me, foot off accellerator, not on the brakes (me or these lights in front), in the left lane, notice its a parked car (no hazard lights, no foot on brake lights, its still drizzling), hits brakes, looks right to swerve around car, sees boy racer and g/f stuck nose first in the central reservation barrier....
I went from about 60 to around mid to high 40's into the back of a Vectra Estate who had stopped, not on the hard shoulder or the outside lane where the accident was, but the bloody left hand lane, essentially blocking the road.
Car had NO ABS, braking took a little while then nose went DOWN, crunched the estate and made it lose a foot or two whilst my (hire) car went under the sensors for the airbag and broke a few of my ribs...
At this time the 3 people were STILL sitting in their cars, not one muppet got out to slow the traffic, note im now in pain and out of the car, flagging traffic down thats coming up the road, im also the only one who calls the police to say the m/way is blocked.
I "JUST" get a Volvo 740 estate to stop (he is fitted with ABS) by waving my arms frantically so he sees me, he stopped about 1 foot from the back of my astra.
Moral of this story, you cannot blame the other driver for anything as you were not in the situation.
On a bright note, having told the copper about the kid racing the Audi Quattro etc the cop told me this.
His 5th and final night (unmarked Volvo btw), first 4 nights of nothing, that night, 1 drink driver and this young lad and his girlfriend, seems he forgot to purchase any insurance for his car, they were just waiting for the van to arrive so they could spend a nice cosy night in the cells lol.
Last funny bit, recovery driver puts Vectra on his wagon then the astra, asks where I want it delivering, I point in the distance at the Vauxhall garage and said "just there, its a courtesy car", he replied, oh, we are just behind there!
(Vauxhall were not too fussed, their insurance paid out).
Mr2Mike said:
Every car I have owned in the last ten or fifteen years has a horn push on the steering wheel that can be easily pressed with a thumb whilst maintaining grip on the wheel. This is not just a happy coincidence, they have been designed this way.
Are you hard of thinking? I'm not denying it's possible, I'm simply stating that by removing one's thumbs from the inner face of the steering wheel and pressing the horn you are reducing your control of the vehicle, especially so in the case of an emergency stop. It's not something any competent driver should do.Matthen said:
The "Fast Dual carriageway" you mention is now forty mph and single lane all the way from the blackbush roundabout (unless the authorities have come to there senses and reset it to NSL). There is no way on earth the 206 was only doing 40 - it would have been going far more slowly if it had been.
If the authorities had left that road well alone the accident wouldn't have happened. There would have been room for the Peugeot to swerve, and chances are the Morgan would have thought twice about pulling out like that. st driving all round IMO. Just shows though, all the safety improvements and increases in journey time as a consequence of them have achieved exactly nothing. They'd have been better of making that junction left turn only, its only a couple of miles up to the roundabout and back.
If the road had been left as dual,carriageway and NSL, the potential for an accident occurring when another car pulls out is still high. I just can't imagine the Morgan driver even saw the pug.If the authorities had left that road well alone the accident wouldn't have happened. There would have been room for the Peugeot to swerve, and chances are the Morgan would have thought twice about pulling out like that. s
t driving all round IMO. Just shows though, all the safety improvements and increases in journey time as a consequence of them have achieved exactly nothing. They'd have been better of making that junction left turn only, its only a couple of miles up to the roundabout and back. You said the pug could have swerved if it had been a DC, assuming he had time to check what was in L2, which I don't think he did, and if he gets that wrong still ends in an accident.
Does seem stupid having a signpost IN THE ROAD, even in a hatched area.
Cold said:
A much better system than my car where the horn is in the boot meaning i have to get out of the car to press it......
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