RE: Aston Martin DB11 V8!
Discussion
E65Ross said:
DPSFleet said:
its such a shame that bit by bit we are anaesthetising all the icon brands. What next 4 cylinder turbo? Still we have lots of older cars that fit my bill. Watch the last V12's rise in money now......
You mean the DB11? That has a V12.....
Cold said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
However, an AMG V8 is not an Aston engine, so fail. If Aston had turbo'd their own v8, no problem....
Despite convoluted protestations from other posters, the current/about-to-be-obsolete V8 is a Ford engine with modifications to Aston's parameters. It's not an Aston engine, never has been. DB9VolanteDriver said:
It most definitely is not a Ford engine. It is based on Jaguar's v8 which is not based on any Ford motor, but is bespoke to Jag. Since Jaguar and Aston were all part of the same family, then a modified Jag engine fits my definition of an Aston motor whereas an AMG unit with a plastic cover slapped over it does not.
That family they were part of, was it Ford?Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari with an AMG engine dropped in it? No. Same thing applies to Aston Martin.
I have no issue with the notion of a V8 in the DB11. Let’s remember that before 1949, all Astons had 4-cylinder engines, the glorious DB4/5/6 had a straight-6, then we had V8s. It wasn’t until the DB7 Vantage in 1999 that there was a 12-cylinder Aston Martin engine. And no, Steve, I don’t feel inadequate when I’m in my V8 Vantage and I’m next to a V12-engined Aston (or anything else). Nor do I fell superior when I’m in my Vanquish S and I’m next to a V8 Vantage, or a lowly 6-cylinder DB5… The shameful thing here is that the AMG V8 is an off-the-shelf someone-else’s engine. Only the intake and exhaust are modified, along with the sump – the engine itself is completely unchanged. This has NO PLACE in an “Aston.” That it’s been “tuned” to be “like an Aston engine” by its own terms makes clear that it is not. Unlike various other marques that are mentioned this discussion, Aston Martin has a very long and distinguished history of making its own engines. Pagani is quite new, and has never made its own engine. When McLaren did the F1, they had never made their own engine, but they didn’t just use something off-the-shelf – they had BMW design a bespoke engine just for the F1. Now they’ve partnered with Ricardo to develop bespoke engines. Because it matters.
Dismissing the current Aston engines as Ford or Jaguar engines conveniently (or ignorantly) ignores what they are. IMO, the current V8 Vantage’s engine is an Aston engine because, while it is derived from the Jaguar V8 (which is not a Ford engine), it was completely re-engineered to become the Aston engine. It has its own, bespoke/unique to Aston block, crankshaft, rods, bearings, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc. The V12 was derived from the Duratec V6, and is so much more than two of them welded together. It was developed for production for Aston, and it has never been used in anything but an Aston. Neither is a clean sheet Aston engine as were the Marek straight-6 or V8, but IMO they qualify as Aston engines. Yes, I’d prefer to see Aston engines built in England, but they are built in a Ford-owned facility in Germany, in a dedicated Aston-only part of that facility in which only Aston Martin employees work. The engines are built exclusively by Aston Martin employees. The AMG engine is built in Germany by AMG, by AMG employees. There is nothing “Aston” about that.
I do not think for a minute that Aston, or anyone else, has ever built the entire car. For me, the non-negotiable components that MUST be bespoke are the engine and the structure – effectively the heart and bones of a car. The argument that the brakes and electronics are made by someone else, and therefore who cares whose engine it is, it not the slightest bit persuasive.
To add insult to injury, this is the first “Aston” that is completely uninteresting to look at under the bonnet – it has an appalling plastic engine cover for the first time. Perhaps that indicates their embarrassment…
It’s not just about what it looks like, or how it sounds, or how fast it is. Authenticity matters – it must be the real thing. An Aston Martin must have a bespoke Aston Martin structure and a bespoke Aston Martin engine. People can, of course, debate where that line is drawn (must it be clean-sheet/can it be “derived” from something else but comprehensively re-engineered/would just changing the heads be enough, etc.), but this is just an off-the-shelf AMG engine dropped into an “Aston.” That is clearly on the wrong side of the line. I’m not pretending that it’s easy or cheap to develop an engine, even one “derived” from another as is the current V8. They have a deep-pocketed partner now. This is Aston Martin – do it right or don’t do it at all.
I have no issue with the notion of a V8 in the DB11. Let’s remember that before 1949, all Astons had 4-cylinder engines, the glorious DB4/5/6 had a straight-6, then we had V8s. It wasn’t until the DB7 Vantage in 1999 that there was a 12-cylinder Aston Martin engine. And no, Steve, I don’t feel inadequate when I’m in my V8 Vantage and I’m next to a V12-engined Aston (or anything else). Nor do I fell superior when I’m in my Vanquish S and I’m next to a V8 Vantage, or a lowly 6-cylinder DB5… The shameful thing here is that the AMG V8 is an off-the-shelf someone-else’s engine. Only the intake and exhaust are modified, along with the sump – the engine itself is completely unchanged. This has NO PLACE in an “Aston.” That it’s been “tuned” to be “like an Aston engine” by its own terms makes clear that it is not. Unlike various other marques that are mentioned this discussion, Aston Martin has a very long and distinguished history of making its own engines. Pagani is quite new, and has never made its own engine. When McLaren did the F1, they had never made their own engine, but they didn’t just use something off-the-shelf – they had BMW design a bespoke engine just for the F1. Now they’ve partnered with Ricardo to develop bespoke engines. Because it matters.
Dismissing the current Aston engines as Ford or Jaguar engines conveniently (or ignorantly) ignores what they are. IMO, the current V8 Vantage’s engine is an Aston engine because, while it is derived from the Jaguar V8 (which is not a Ford engine), it was completely re-engineered to become the Aston engine. It has its own, bespoke/unique to Aston block, crankshaft, rods, bearings, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc. The V12 was derived from the Duratec V6, and is so much more than two of them welded together. It was developed for production for Aston, and it has never been used in anything but an Aston. Neither is a clean sheet Aston engine as were the Marek straight-6 or V8, but IMO they qualify as Aston engines. Yes, I’d prefer to see Aston engines built in England, but they are built in a Ford-owned facility in Germany, in a dedicated Aston-only part of that facility in which only Aston Martin employees work. The engines are built exclusively by Aston Martin employees. The AMG engine is built in Germany by AMG, by AMG employees. There is nothing “Aston” about that.
I do not think for a minute that Aston, or anyone else, has ever built the entire car. For me, the non-negotiable components that MUST be bespoke are the engine and the structure – effectively the heart and bones of a car. The argument that the brakes and electronics are made by someone else, and therefore who cares whose engine it is, it not the slightest bit persuasive.
To add insult to injury, this is the first “Aston” that is completely uninteresting to look at under the bonnet – it has an appalling plastic engine cover for the first time. Perhaps that indicates their embarrassment…
It’s not just about what it looks like, or how it sounds, or how fast it is. Authenticity matters – it must be the real thing. An Aston Martin must have a bespoke Aston Martin structure and a bespoke Aston Martin engine. People can, of course, debate where that line is drawn (must it be clean-sheet/can it be “derived” from something else but comprehensively re-engineered/would just changing the heads be enough, etc.), but this is just an off-the-shelf AMG engine dropped into an “Aston.” That is clearly on the wrong side of the line. I’m not pretending that it’s easy or cheap to develop an engine, even one “derived” from another as is the current V8. They have a deep-pocketed partner now. This is Aston Martin – do it right or don’t do it at all.
I've spent time in both W12 and V8 Bentley conti's and would have the V8 every day. It sounds better, you can feel the lighter front end, the V8S isn't much of a performance drop from the W12 and the economy is noticeably better. The fact it's cheaper to buy is just another bonus. IMO in the real world, most of the time, it's the better car.
Unfortunately I never got to drive a V8 DB11, but spent time driving the V12. It sounds good and is properly straight-line quick, perhaps too much so for the type of car it is. I've heard both the V12 and V8 DB11 in person side by side, and I think the V8 sounds at least as good, certainly a deeper tone, maybe a touch louder at idle. The 6L N/A astons sound amazing and are great fun to drive, but the DB11 doesn't sound or feel like these. Given the choice between a car with the old 6L V12 or the new V8 I would always go V12. But as the options are new turbo V12 or AMG V8, I think I'd take the V8. Same as the Conti - It's a fair bit lighter at the front, 0.1s 0-60 difference, you're not going to miss the extra power on the road and you get the benefit of better economy/cheaper to buy. I agree there should be more difference in the price (I was expecting £20k+) but it certainly should sell well. There's also the reliability factor - the AMG engine is a bit more of a known entity as it's been on the road in more cars for longer.
PS - Don't shoot me - just my view from first hand experience of these cars!
Unfortunately I never got to drive a V8 DB11, but spent time driving the V12. It sounds good and is properly straight-line quick, perhaps too much so for the type of car it is. I've heard both the V12 and V8 DB11 in person side by side, and I think the V8 sounds at least as good, certainly a deeper tone, maybe a touch louder at idle. The 6L N/A astons sound amazing and are great fun to drive, but the DB11 doesn't sound or feel like these. Given the choice between a car with the old 6L V12 or the new V8 I would always go V12. But as the options are new turbo V12 or AMG V8, I think I'd take the V8. Same as the Conti - It's a fair bit lighter at the front, 0.1s 0-60 difference, you're not going to miss the extra power on the road and you get the benefit of better economy/cheaper to buy. I agree there should be more difference in the price (I was expecting £20k+) but it certainly should sell well. There's also the reliability factor - the AMG engine is a bit more of a known entity as it's been on the road in more cars for longer.
PS - Don't shoot me - just my view from first hand experience of these cars!
JohnGoodridge said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Approx 8% cheaper than the v12? Why would anyone bother.
Help AM sell it in China was my first thought.Also that price difference does grow when you start applying (for example) an Asian market import duty of between 100 and 200%.
suffolk009 said:
MrScrot said:
GroundEffect said:
MrScrot said:
FN2TypeR said:
MrScrot said:
Putting an AMG in an Aston Martin does not feel right to me. If you buy an Aston you want it's British heritage.This engine drop nullifies that. I'm sure there are enough engineers in Britain that could produce a competitive, green engine, but marketing and business swines unfortunately stick red tape all over that.
What nonsenseBut by "tooling up" your'e not just setting up for a new engine, you are giving people jobs and livelihoods, which is commendable in itself. Even if this does not make complete business sense you still have a re useable product.
I was at Ricardo for a while, although I had nothing to do with the McLaren project.
Speedraser said:
To add insult to injury, this is the first “Aston” that is completely uninteresting to look at under the bonnet – it has an appalling plastic engine cover for the first time. Perhaps that indicates their embarrassment…
Embarrassment? Possibly.Engineered thermal management of a twin turbo hot-V and tuning of NVH? Probably.
XJSJohn said:
JohnGoodridge said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Approx 8% cheaper than the v12? Why would anyone bother.
Help AM sell it in China was my first thought.Also that price difference does grow when you start applying (for example) an Asian market import duty of between 100 and 200%.
Speedraser said:
This is Aston Martin – do it right or don’t do it at all.
Disagree with this, strongly.I know you've been very vocal about this, not just on this site either, but I'll say that I personally couldn't care less that an engine designed by AMG is under the bonnet, in fact, I can already see this V8 engined model being a serious contender for my next car purchase. I don't care for the V12 version particularly and I believe in the free market - your point would have more validity if Aston discontinued the V12 model but as they haven't, you have to choice to purchase that model should you so desire.
We also must be aware that on a global level, a smaller capacity engine is essential for certain markets if Aston is to remain in existence; these are the markets that prop them up, not the domestic UK market.
You (and the 'others' you have spoken about elsewhere) might decide to leave the brand and take your money elsewhere due to your outrage for an AMG engine being introduced to the line-up but you'll all be replaced, and then some...
Don't get me wrong, a V8, particularly a Mercedes V8 isn't a bad engine but that V8 is based around the engine thats in the A45amg. It's a fine engine but a car like this really deserves a more aristocratic cultured engine and that is a V12.
A really well developed straight six would work down the line for a vantage type car but V8's don't sound as pleasant as straight sixes or V12's. Nothing does.
A really well developed straight six would work down the line for a vantage type car but V8's don't sound as pleasant as straight sixes or V12's. Nothing does.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Approx 8% cheaper than the v12? Why would anyone bother. You will always feel inadequate when you pull up next to the big boy's version with 50% more cylinders, and a real Aston motor. Massive fail.
Same thing gets said about the V8 Bentley Continental, but they sell crazily well.Cold said:
Despite convoluted protestations from other posters, the current/about-to-be-obsolete V8 is a Ford engine with modifications to Aston's parameters. It's not an Aston engine, never has been.
Actually, the Aston Martin Vantage V8 engine is based on the AJV8 engine developed by Ford (FoMoCo) for Jaguar and Landrover platforms. The Aston Martin V8 engine however is just loosely based on the Jaguar engine, it has a different casting for the block, uses different internals and has completely different heads. Also, the Ford/Jaguar AJV8 had a cross plane crank, the Aston on the other hand has a flat plane crank, and with it the very distinctive exhaust note that a flat plane crank creates.... This isn't a protestation, it's a statement of factBy contrast, the AMG V8 lump (M178) going into the DB11 has a cross plane crank.
ChilliWhizz said:
Actually, the Aston Martin Vantage V8 engine is based on the AJV8 engine developed by Ford (FoMoCo) for Jaguar and Landrover platforms. The Aston Martin V8 engine however is just loosely based on the Jaguar engine, it has a different casting for the block, uses different internals and has completely different heads. Also, the Ford/Jaguar AJV8 had a cross plane crank, the Aston on the other hand has a flat plane crank, and with it the very distinctive exhaust note that a flat plane crank creates.... This isn't a protestation, it's a statement of fact
By contrast, the AMG V8 lump (M178) going into the DB11 has a cross plane crank.
Are you sure about the flat plane crank?By contrast, the AMG V8 lump (M178) going into the DB11 has a cross plane crank.
V8V certainly don't sound like the other flat plane V8s I've heard (Ferrari mainly)
ChilliWhizz said:
Cold said:
Despite convoluted protestations from other posters, the current/about-to-be-obsolete V8 is a Ford engine with modifications to Aston's parameters. It's not an Aston engine, never has been.
Actually, the Aston Martin Vantage V8 engine is based on the AJV8 engine developed by Ford (FoMoCo) for Jaguar and Landrover platforms. The Aston Martin V8 engine however is just loosely based on the Jaguar engine, it has a different casting for the block, uses different internals and has completely different heads. Also, the Ford/Jaguar AJV8 had a cross plane crank, the Aston on the other hand has a flat plane crank, and with it the very distinctive exhaust note that a flat plane crank creates.... This isn't a protestation, it's a statement of factBy contrast, the AMG V8 lump (M178) going into the DB11 has a cross plane crank.
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