RE: Porsche confirms the death of diesel
Discussion
boxerTen said:
Lots of nonsense spouted about fuel economy - a 2+ ton SUV is not where one starts looking for that.
It is when there are a multitude of other factors to consider. Family, usual use of vehicle etc.I have a need for an SUV but why should I buy a petrol Tiguan if I can afford to have a Cayenne Diesel S. It has better styling, comfort and build quality.
I would never have committed to a Cayenne Turbo as I would be running sub 20mpg which I could not justify. I average 30mpg in my Diesel S. It doesnt mean I should not buy a marque of which fits the bill for my personal requirements or spend more on fuel than is required when the Diesel s is more than sufficient enough.
RobM77 said:
chazd said:
ITP said:
Never understood why someone would buy a diesel Porsche. The only reason to have a diesel is to save money if you do 10’s of thousands of miles on motorways.
It’s like paying top dollar to go to a 5 star restaurant but ordering beans on toast to keep the cost down.
The comparable GTS Petrol to Diesel S - Cayenne - the diesel out performs and returns better fuel economy and is a V8....so why would you buy the petrol if only for the noise?It’s like paying top dollar to go to a 5 star restaurant but ordering beans on toast to keep the cost down.
I have a Stage 2 S5 Cab if I fancy something different and looking at a 991.2 GTS at the moment.
Burgerbob said:
As a lad a Porsche of any type (911, 944, 924 or 928) was a dream car. For me diesels, 4x4s, or 4 door cars do not fit the image of what I perceive a Porsche should be, so I for one am pleased that they are dropping the diesel.
But I do find the image of diesel a bit strange. 10 years ago big love, tax breaks etc and everyone wanted one. Now, everyone hates them. I've just done a 300 mile journey in my 3.0 diesel motorhome and I can't imagine a petrol engine would cut the mustard, but mine has a Euro 4 engine and I'm concerned that in a few years time I can forget about taking it on city breaks.
I have never loved them,never wanted one and never had illusions that they would last in all types of vehicles,incl. cars for people,doing 5000 miles per year. But I do find the image of diesel a bit strange. 10 years ago big love, tax breaks etc and everyone wanted one. Now, everyone hates them. I've just done a 300 mile journey in my 3.0 diesel motorhome and I can't imagine a petrol engine would cut the mustard, but mine has a Euro 4 engine and I'm concerned that in a few years time I can forget about taking it on city breaks.
chazd said:
I have a need for an SUV but why should I buy a petrol Tiguan if I can afford to have a Cayenne Diesel S. It has better styling, comfort and build quality.
Who has ever bought a Cayenne for the styling?The bigger thing is the whole class of car is wasteful. Spent the last week driving the in-laws 2013 Audi Q3 2.0 TDI and it was no better on fuel than our Fiesta ST, and in terms of interior space there was very little in it either - we just needed a 5 door car for the week. A mid-range petrol VW Golf or Audi A3 would have been nicer to drive, identical in terms of interior space and no less economical.
Thorburn said:
chazd said:
I have a need for an SUV but why should I buy a petrol Tiguan if I can afford to have a Cayenne Diesel S. It has better styling, comfort and build quality.
Who has ever bought a Cayenne for the styling?The bigger thing is the whole class of car is wasteful. Spent the last week driving the in-laws 2013 Audi Q3 2.0 TDI and it was no better on fuel than our Fiesta ST, and in terms of interior space there was very little in it either - we just needed a 5 door car for the week. A mid-range petrol VW Golf or Audi A3 would have been nicer to drive, identical in terms of interior space and no less economical.
The Q3 is an A3 so yes an A3 is comparable. I need an SUV and one of a decent size. So your suggesting I should buy a smaller hatchback because me owning a vehicle that is perfectly suited to all my requirements may upset others?!
KillianB4 said:
To be slightly back on topic, its a great move by Porsche. Diesel Cayenne's were their saviour and now they will be applauded for ceasing to sell the same car. And as previously mentioned, outside of Europe they shift very few diesels so its really not going to affect them in the short or long term.
It's certainly a radical move, but I don't think it's a great one.One things for sure, Porsche are about to sell one hell of a lot LESS Cayennes and Macans. Just because diesel has gone, it doesn't mean everybody is going to naturally buy a petrol version instead. They are more expensive to buy for a start; they have a drink problem (and therefore have less range), and most importantly - they don't drive as well. I fully expect all OPCs to be handling lots of deposit return requests in the coming weeks.
I don't think there'll be a huge switch to hybrid either. They aren't really that economical and the weight of the pallet of batteries dulls the handling. They only really make sense if you're obsessed about a low BIK rate and can live with the other compromises.
The reason Porsche have done this is purely to save themselves having fields full of part exchange diesels they can't shift when local authorities will be shafting anybody with a diesel badge who dare come within 1 mile of their precious city centre in about three years time. Yes, that city centre, the one with the smoking public transport buses and taxis.
KillianB4 said:
To be slightly back on topic, its a great move by Porsche. Diesel Cayenne's were their saviour and now they will be applauded for ceasing to sell the same car. And as previously mentioned, outside of Europe they shift very few diesels so its really not going to affect them in the short or long term.
The diesel didn’t appear until Porsche merged under VW and played no part in saving the business. It was just about fitting with VW’s need to shift as many units as possible. 9 seconds to 60 and the cheapest model highlights what the product was really about.
DonkeyApple said:
Just to correct that bit. It was the Boxster that saved Porsche from bankruptcy. And the Cayenne when it came out in 2002 was a V8 NA and the Turbo. It totally redefined the SUV market by bringing high performance to it. Wholly fitting of the Porsche marque and great cars.
The diesel didn’t appear until Porsche merged under VW and played no part in saving the business. It was just about fitting with VW’s need to shift as many units as possible. 9 seconds to 60 and the cheapest model highlights what the product was really about.
I stand corrected.The diesel didn’t appear until Porsche merged under VW and played no part in saving the business. It was just about fitting with VW’s need to shift as many units as possible. 9 seconds to 60 and the cheapest model highlights what the product was really about.
There's a chap who drives in and out of our close every morning in a Cayenne diesel and I must say it actually sounds rather good - all I hear is V8 rumble, not diesel clatter. There was a cracking PCP deal on them before Christmas, presumably to get shot. I was sorely tempted!
As others have said, it's a shame that the offering from manufacturers hasn't really caught up. I'd rather a petrol, but iirc to lease the petrol version of the Disco Sport Mrs PB has her heart set on would cost almost twice as much a month. Perhaps that will change as residuals work themselves out? We're certainly a family that isn't in need of a diesel and I'll be having to make sure I stretch its legs on a regular basis when it arrives.
At least I've gone into it with my eyes open and it won't be mine in a few years. I told my B-i-L to go for the petrol version of the Civic he had his heart set on. He went for the diesel because that was the one with leather in the colour he wanted. I despair!
As others have said, it's a shame that the offering from manufacturers hasn't really caught up. I'd rather a petrol, but iirc to lease the petrol version of the Disco Sport Mrs PB has her heart set on would cost almost twice as much a month. Perhaps that will change as residuals work themselves out? We're certainly a family that isn't in need of a diesel and I'll be having to make sure I stretch its legs on a regular basis when it arrives.
At least I've gone into it with my eyes open and it won't be mine in a few years. I told my B-i-L to go for the petrol version of the Civic he had his heart set on. He went for the diesel because that was the one with leather in the colour he wanted. I despair!
RobDickinson said:
Hybrid will take over. Porsche already into it with the Panama hybrid.
As for economic most trips are short so that's what you cover with the battery.
They may be into it, but there only into it because they think they 'have' to be, not because they 'want' to be.As for economic most trips are short so that's what you cover with the battery.
As for your 'economic' battery trips, you'll still be lugging a whacking great engine around with you just in case the batteries that you've been charging all night can't cope with your seat, steering wheel, windscreen, rear window, side mirror and cabin heaters all at the same time. As well as your headlights and radio of course.
Hybrids are flawed and compromised. Apart from the usual super cars, I've not seen a glowing review of one yet.
DonkeyApple said:
Just to correct that bit. It was the Boxster that saved Porsche from bankruptcy. And the Cayenne when it came out in 2002 was a V8 NA and the Turbo. It totally redefined the SUV market by bringing high performance to it. Wholly fitting of the Porsche marque and great cars.
The diesel didn’t appear until Porsche merged under VW and played no part in saving the business. It was just about fitting with VW’s need to shift as many units as possible. 9 seconds to 60 and the cheapest model highlights what the product was really about.
Although Porsche SE took a controlling stake in the new group so it's not all about VW thrusting diesels down Porsches unwilling mouth. The diesel didn’t appear until Porsche merged under VW and played no part in saving the business. It was just about fitting with VW’s need to shift as many units as possible. 9 seconds to 60 and the cheapest model highlights what the product was really about.
The Cayenne was joint project with VW from the start before Porsche took control of VW.
Cobnapint said:
Go on then, how many miles do you get before your 2.9 litre V6 petrol engine has to come in to shift the car, it's dead battery pack and charge the batteries back up? (presuming you have the Panamera).
I dont have the panamera,, I do have an outlander phev. I get roughly 50kms from the battery which is surprisingly about the same distance as my commute...Its actually more efficient running on just the 2.0 than my previous smaller suv (2.4L grand vitara).
Hybrids are a compromise, a better one IMO than diseasal or straight petrol for most people.
DiscoColin said:
The European obsession CO2 was always a red herring - politicians trying to save the world from greenhouse gasses made by countries that produce a tangible but not globally significant amount of the problem while completely ignoring the effect of tractor exhausts on the air that their populations were breathing.
+1RobDickinson said:
Cobnapint said:
Go on then, how many miles do you get before your 2.9 litre V6 petrol engine has to come in to shift the car, it's dead battery pack and charge the batteries back up? (presuming you have the Panamera).
I dont have the panamera,, I do have an outlander phev. I get roughly 50kms from the battery which is surprisingly about the same distance as my commute...Its actually more efficient running on just the 2.0 than my previous smaller suv (2.4L grand vitara).
Hybrids are a compromise, a better one IMO than diseasal or straight petrol for most people.
BTW, my eu6 petrol stinks too at start-up and cold engine, spewing out unburned fuel containing benzene and other polyaromates know to be cancerogenic. And as a direct injection, more particles than a give diesel, new gasolines now needing a gasoline particulate trap to live up to the same emission rules as diesels have had. Not mentioning CO2... Best is to ban all ice cars from city centres if clean air is really what matters...
Onehp said:
Indeed, no need to warm the electric engine, 50kms covers the commute for a lot a people. Only problem is lazy people and lack of charging points that have folks running them without charging them, doing 20mpg and getting all the tax benefits.
BTW, my eu6 petrol stinks too at start-up and cold engine, spewing out unburned fuel containing benzene and other polyaromates know to be cancerogenic. And as a direct injection, more particles than a give diesel, new gasolines now needing a gasoline particulate trap to live up to the same emission rules as diesels have had. Not mentioning CO2... Best is to ban all ice cars from city centres if clean air is really what matters...
+1BTW, my eu6 petrol stinks too at start-up and cold engine, spewing out unburned fuel containing benzene and other polyaromates know to be cancerogenic. And as a direct injection, more particles than a give diesel, new gasolines now needing a gasoline particulate trap to live up to the same emission rules as diesels have had. Not mentioning CO2... Best is to ban all ice cars from city centres if clean air is really what matters...
It amazes me people are so blinkered to the issues of modern petrols and hybrids.
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