IOM TT 2018 Car Lap record run?
Discussion
Red 4 said:
You're not listening.
Bike - small.
Car - not small.
IOM circuit - narrow.
I take it you've never been to Fraggle Rock ?
In which case why is it faster than a superstock? Are they wide and not able to handle a bumpy circuit or have a slower top speed??Bike - small.
Car - not small.
IOM circuit - narrow.
I take it you've never been to Fraggle Rock ?
Why bring up car v bike. I’m interested in the next run when is it etc.
Remember Higgins first timed run in 2016 he had IIRC a 124mph lap which was amazing but then everyone thought that’s such a long way off the bikes the bikers are spot on about narrow etc but then run 2 he did 128.8mph wowzers that’s a massive step on with the exact same car.
He did state in the video he had a bad section 3 his worst so there is naturally more speed to come out of that car doing nothing but more practice. Maybe it’s a genuine 130mph average speed car who knows.
Welshbeef said:
Remember Higgins first timed run in 2016 he had IIRC a 124mph lap which was amazing but then everyone thought that’s such a long way off the bikes the bikers are spot on about narrow etc but then run 2 he did 128.8mph wowzers that’s a massive step on with the exact same car.
Wasn't the exact same car, and you know that, totally different set up suspension, much more power and active aero .....RB Will said:
Overtaking is a bit irrelevant it’s not hard on a narrow bike and drafting someone as you go to overtake could be an advantage.
Have you ever watched an onboard TT lap and seen how long the riders have to wait to execute an overtake.Unless they catch the bike in front at precisely the right point, they have to sit behind them and wait for an appropriate bit of the course.
RB Will said:
Don’t think the standing/ flying start makes much odds.Surely if it did all the bike records would be set on the last lap, what’s the point even bringing up the flying lap argument if you say the bikes get one per race anyway?
Really, you think a flying start would make little difference, so crossing the start line at 160+mph to start your lap is negligible?The bikes only ever get one chance at a flying lap on the final lap of a six lapper, by which time the bike and rider are knackered and they have to contend plenty of other bikes on the course.
Welshbeef said:
Sorry I didn’t realise the rules for a IOM TTwere only applicable from standing starts - if they do actually record the fastest lap on their last lap is that not recorded as the fastest lap/purely for note?
They aren't, for a six lap TT race there are mandatory pits stops at the end of laps 2 and 4. The only chance a bike ever gets at a flying lap is on lap 6, invariably, according to post race interviews, even if the bikes were on lap record pace, they tend to get held up, having to overtake other bikes. This is why, the lap records are normally set on the first lap from a standing start.Welshbeef said:
Fastest laps in any other racing are achieved during the race but the outright record can be achieved during qualifying. But fastest laps which would be logged in the g Book of record would simply be that the fastest time set period.
At the TT, practice lap times are not official times, for record purposes. All the lap records are set under race conditions!Welshbeef said:
The car isn’t racing in any TT race or class it’s simply some fun - I’m not sure of he regulations for making different bikes to superbikes or super sport but they are defined classes for racing. However Zero TT a new category has been created recently so a better category than the top spec bikes currently allowed is certainly possible but no doubt would be expensive - interesting none the less
The TT zero bikes are relatively slow, their "race" is one lap, the batteries aren't up to the task, the riders say they have to manage the battery life, they can't just pin the throttle, if they did the battery would die and they wouldn't even manage one lap!At the end of the day, I'd imagine you could get a car around faster, if you threw enough money at it.
It's highly unlikely it could do it under the same conditions as the bikes do it, with sixty other cars out on the course at the same time.
A bike has never been given the concessions the car has, so we're not comparing like with like!
rigga said:
Welshbeef said:
Remember Higgins first timed run in 2016 he had IIRC a 124mph lap which was amazing but then everyone thought that’s such a long way off the bikes the bikers are spot on about narrow etc but then run 2 he did 128.8mph wowzers that’s a massive step on with the exact same car.
Wasn't the exact same car, and you know that, totally different set up suspension, much more power and active aero .....Higgins has used 2 yes two different cars 1 in 2014 when he did 117-118mph time then he went again in 2016.
As clearly stated in the above I said on his FIRST run in 2016 he managed 124mph and then with the exact same car did 128.8mph ie both being the 2016 car. FFS.
FFS s
CypSIdders said:
The TT zero bikes are relatively slow, their "race" is one lap, the batteries aren't up to the task, the riders say they have to manage the battery life, they can't just pin the throttle, if they did the battery would die and they wouldn't even manage one lap!
At the end of the day, I'd imagine you could get a car around faster, if you threw enough money at it.
It's highly unlikely it could do it under the same conditions as the bikes do it, with sixty other cars out on the course at the same time.
A bike has never been given the concessions the car has, so we're not comparing like with like!
The TT Zero is quicker/faster lap time thanAt the end of the day, I'd imagine you could get a car around faster, if you threw enough money at it.
It's highly unlikely it could do it under the same conditions as the bikes do it, with sixty other cars out on the course at the same time.
A bike has never been given the concessions the car has, so we're not comparing like with like!
Sidecar TT
125cc
250cc
And about 15 seconds off beating the super Twin (lightweight TT).
jsf said:
slipstream 1985 said:
I suspect the local knowledge some of the bikers have round there compared to any decent car driver is worth a big chunk of time.
Don't be silly. You think mark Higgins doesnt know the circuit like the back of his hand?Red 4 said:
A lot of riders call it threading the needle.
Pin point accuracy using all of the road.
The bike can use more of the road because it's smaller.
The car takes up more space on the road meaning it has to take a different line.
Not
Exactly
Rocket
Science.
One word:Pin point accuracy using all of the road.
The bike can use more of the road because it's smaller.
The car takes up more space on the road meaning it has to take a different line.
Not
Exactly
Rocket
Science.
DOWNFORCE
A bike doesn't use downforce, so the only force available to push it's tyres into the road is it's mass, that necessarily limits it's maximum G to around 1 to 1.2 g even on the softest best tyres ever made.
A car, and especially one not held back by any regulations can leverage downforce. An F1 car, which is enormously hobbled by regulations, can pull 5 g, as it can create 4 times it's own mass in downforce
5g is five times greater than 1g, and as Centripetal Acceleration is equal to the square of the velocity, divided by the radius of the circular path, that means our downforce assisted car can either corner 5 times tighter at the same speed, or take the same bend at 2.23 faster speed!
And as we have no regs, then we can get downforce at all speeds, simply by fitting a rocket engine to the roof, facing downwards, and firing when we go round a bend......... ;-)
Max_Torque said:
One word:
DOWNFORCE
A bike doesn't use downforce, so the only force available to push it's tyres into the road is it's mass, that necessarily limits it's maximum G to around 1 to 1.2 g even on the softest best tyres ever made.
A car, and especially one not held back by any regulations can leverage downforce. An F1 car, which is enormously hobbled by regulations, can pull 5 g, as it can create 4 times it's own mass in downforce
5g is five times greater than 1g, and as Centripetal Acceleration is equal to the square of the velocity, divided by the radius of the circular path, that means our downforce assisted car can either corner 5 times tighter at the same speed, or take the same bend at 2.23 faster speed!
And as we have no regs, then we can get downforce at all speeds, simply by fitting a rocket engine to the roof, facing downwards, and firing when we go round a bend......... ;-)
fDOWNFORCE
A bike doesn't use downforce, so the only force available to push it's tyres into the road is it's mass, that necessarily limits it's maximum G to around 1 to 1.2 g even on the softest best tyres ever made.
A car, and especially one not held back by any regulations can leverage downforce. An F1 car, which is enormously hobbled by regulations, can pull 5 g, as it can create 4 times it's own mass in downforce
5g is five times greater than 1g, and as Centripetal Acceleration is equal to the square of the velocity, divided by the radius of the circular path, that means our downforce assisted car can either corner 5 times tighter at the same speed, or take the same bend at 2.23 faster speed!
And as we have no regs, then we can get downforce at all speeds, simply by fitting a rocket engine to the roof, facing downwards, and firing when we go round a bend......... ;-)
k me.I need to go and lie down for a bit.
Go to the island.
Ride/ drive the circuit.
It's suited to bikes for a multitude of reasons.
twizellb said:
jsf said:
slipstream 1985 said:
I suspect the local knowledge some of the bikers have round there compared to any decent car driver is worth a big chunk of time.
Don't be silly. You think mark Higgins doesnt know the circuit like the back of his hand?Even though Mark knows his way around the island he had 2-3 laps in that car there. Its not like he is practicing by driving to the shops to get his milk at 170mph. I know my local roads really well but I wouldn't be able to test the limits of the corners without a bit of practice.
CypSIdders said:
RB Will said:
Overtaking is a bit irrelevant it’s not hard on a narrow bike and drafting someone as you go to overtake could be an advantage.
Have you ever watched an onboard TT lap and seen how long the riders have to wait to execute an overtake.Unless they catch the bike in front at precisely the right point, they have to sit behind them and wait for an appropriate bit of the course.
RB Will said:
Don’t think the standing/ flying start makes much odds.Surely if it did all the bike records would be set on the last lap, what’s the point even bringing up the flying lap argument if you say the bikes get one per race anyway?
Really, you think a flying start would make little difference, so crossing the start line at 160+mph to start your lap is negligible?The bikes only ever get one chance at a flying lap on the final lap of a six lapper, by which time the bike and rider are knackered and they have to contend plenty of other bikes on the course.
Similarly with the standing start. a 1000cc bike takes what 7-8 secs to get to 160mph, the actual time lost would be half that so again standing start makes less than 0.5mph average to a lap so not even worth worrying about
Enlighten me how are laps timed at the TT? do laps - 2-5 include the time spent in the pits? or is it like the Nürburgring where you can work a Bridge to Gantry sort of time or even full laps have a section by the pits missing? if so really your only chance for a fast lap is 1 and 6 and you say 1 doesn't cound as standing start and 6 doesn't count cos tired and maybe traffic interference.
Are qualifying / practice times impeded if not are they any quicker?
I know they are simulations so bikers please don't get pissy about calling BS on these but for example...
Projected lap for a 919 Evo is average 172mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD382MqXPB8&t=...
so even going at 80%, going from a standing start, slowing for imaginary narrow bits and slowing down for the bridge its still smashing the bikes.
to take it even more silly if you want to build a theoretical no limits bike it has to go up against a theoretical no limits car
Red Bull X2010 average is 215mph!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDEBWgPP-uk
RB Will said:
Projected lap for a 919 Evo is average 172mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD382MqXPB8&t=...
so even going at 80%, going from a standing start, slowing for imaginary narrow bits and slowing down for the bridge its still smashing the bikes.
to take it even more silly if you want to build a theoretical no limits bike it has to go up against a theoretical no limits car
Red Bull X2010 average is 215mph!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDEBWgPP-uk
Oh, dear God !https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD382MqXPB8&t=...
so even going at 80%, going from a standing start, slowing for imaginary narrow bits and slowing down for the bridge its still smashing the bikes.
to take it even more silly if you want to build a theoretical no limits bike it has to go up against a theoretical no limits car
Red Bull X2010 average is 215mph!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDEBWgPP-uk
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The PlayStation Generation.
I beat Carlos Sainz at Catalunya once. In a rally prep'd Micra. From the comfort of an armchair.
But it does take years to learn the IOM circuit as all the top riders will attest to.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 1st June 14:00
RB Will said:
Enlighten me how are laps timed at the TT? do laps - 2-5 include the time spent in the pits?
Yes, time in the pits is included in the lap time.RB Will said:
Are qualifying / practice times impeded if not are they any quicker?
During Practice, especially earlier in practice week, more often than not they come in after 1 lap, for adjustments or to change to another class of bike. There can be other classes of bikes on the course, so Superbikes could be encountering Supersports or Superstock bikes. There have been odd occasions were practice laps have been faster than the lap record, they are not counted as official laps in the record books, all lap records have been attained under race conditions. As I said earlier, the car has always been afforded lots of concessions the bikes have never, ever had.
Nanook said:
Red 4 said:
Oh, dear God !
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The PlayStation Generation.
I beat Carlos Sainz at Catalunya once. In a rally prep'd Micra. From the comfort of an armchair.
But it does take years to learn the IOM circuit as all the top riders will attest to.
You did?Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The PlayStation Generation.
I beat Carlos Sainz at Catalunya once. In a rally prep'd Micra. From the comfort of an armchair.
But it does take years to learn the IOM circuit as all the top riders will attest to.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 1st June 14:00
In a game, which is a toy?
Or a sim? Which is what the F1 drivers use to learn tracks these days?
Well, seeing as you're making reference to F1, what's the average speed around Monza by a F1 car ?
172 mph average around the IOM. Dream on.
Car v Bike aside, If someone was designing a vehicle to lap the IOM TT course as fast as possible, from scratch, what would it look like ?
I think the simulation angle is a good one, I am sure with a really good computer model of the course and accurate physics you could get a reasonably accurate prediction, simulate exiting vehicles and see how close they get to their actual time.
Is there a decent game with the IOM TT course in already ?
With the limited track time and the danger, even in a car, I suppose attempts will always be limited.
I think the simulation angle is a good one, I am sure with a really good computer model of the course and accurate physics you could get a reasonably accurate prediction, simulate exiting vehicles and see how close they get to their actual time.
Is there a decent game with the IOM TT course in already ?
With the limited track time and the danger, even in a car, I suppose attempts will always be limited.
If the Prodrive Subaru can manage 128 average with 600bhp, yet it’s a car that’s 10 seconds slower or so then a GT2 RS around the ring due to its relative lack of grunt, maybe the Litchfield LM1 RS is the car to do it. 1000bhp or so, considerably lighter than a standard GTR, proper aero but suspension setup to handle the bumps of that German toll road... This thing should manage a higher average than the Subaru did, how much more who knows? You’d think it could manage a 130-132 average lap surely?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff