RE: Jean-Marc Gales exits Lotus
Discussion
ESOG said:
FOR GODSSAKE LOTUS FORGET ABOUT THIS SUV NONSENSE AND FRIGGEN BUILD AN AFFORDABLE FUN ELAN LIKE CAR ALREADY!!!! Think the 90s; ELAN M100, MR2s, S2000's, Miata, etc. Be the leader in that class.
Not easy to improve on the MX5 and make any money. It would have been easier if Mazda had not reversed the trend with the current itreation. But the ND is light (~ 1 ton, not much fatter than some late Elises) and now available with a 184 HP NA engine -- peak power @ 7k rpm as well!I'd love to see that happen -- but it's a tall order, even if they could secure a massive investment from their Chinese owners. More than happy to be proven wrong, but I doubt they'll make anything under 40k GBP in the future. The range starts about there now that the NA Elise is history.
More on topic -- Gales' exit seems to have been unplanned and is IMO a bit worrying.
Some insiders (?) on here seem to be pretty critical of the man, but from what can bee seen on the outside IMO he delivered. The cars are getting better and better while retaining the Lotus 'DNA', the enterprise is profitable for once and sales are up. Not easy with current tech regulations, fierce competition, miniscule budget and a single factory in a high wage economy.
Might be a bit naive, but I think JMG is a real car guy as well. Why else would you go from PSA board to Lotus to that boutique / prestige Classic Car outfit? Not the normal career progression a typical CxO is looking for. I actually hope we are missing something from the story and the guy is an incompetent arxehole after all.
Alternative explenations are more worrying for people interested in cars 'Chapman style'. Why would he go now in a move that looks very much unplanned? Most likely would be disagreement over the future course of the company. And Gales seemed to have a deep understanding of Lotus. Hm.
Some insiders (?) on here seem to be pretty critical of the man, but from what can bee seen on the outside IMO he delivered. The cars are getting better and better while retaining the Lotus 'DNA', the enterprise is profitable for once and sales are up. Not easy with current tech regulations, fierce competition, miniscule budget and a single factory in a high wage economy.
Might be a bit naive, but I think JMG is a real car guy as well. Why else would you go from PSA board to Lotus to that boutique / prestige Classic Car outfit? Not the normal career progression a typical CxO is looking for. I actually hope we are missing something from the story and the guy is an incompetent arxehole after all.
Alternative explenations are more worrying for people interested in cars 'Chapman style'. Why would he go now in a move that looks very much unplanned? Most likely would be disagreement over the future course of the company. And Gales seemed to have a deep understanding of Lotus. Hm.
A month or two back Gales deputy Mr. Manwaring quit Lotus and is now MD of CKL Developments, specialists in classic Jaguars and racing preparation. Now Gales has gone to another specialist classic Jaguar company, J D Classics,but one with at the moment a very tainted reputation and subject to a £9 million court case. What interests me is that Gales has stepped straight across with no gardening leave required. It all seems a bit strange to me. I assume that the founder of JD Classics has now been quietly retired and that they are now trying to turn the page.
Talksteer said:
ESOG said:
John145 said:
It's bizarre people think that advanced technology and lotus do not mix! A diseased mentality.
I'll tell you what a TRUE "diseased mentality" is.... It is thinking that Lotus feels it must jump into the SUV producing pool and thinking people will actually buy such a product from them. I am truly astounded how there isn't more of an uproar and written\voiced opinion on the matter.
FOR GODSSAKE LOTUS FORGET ABOUT THIS SUV NONSENSE AND FRIGGEN BUILD AN AFFORDABLE FUN ELAN LIKE CAR ALREADY!!!! Think the 90s; ELAN M100, MR2s, S2000's, Miata, etc. Be the leader in that class.
Customer expectations of cars has greatly increased since all of those cars you name were created, safety and environmental legislation mean your car has to be substantially more robust too.
If you want an example of what a major manufacturer supported low volume driving enjoyment biased cars will look like on a spec sheet think Alpine A110 something which Lotus are already competitive with on specification.
The days of sports cars costing less than £30k is pretty much over, hatchback based performance cars will dominate at the price point because lets face it with modern suspension and brakes the compromises inherent in the layout is pretty minor and the money you spend on not making a low volume body can be spent on performance components.
And if we are going to criticise lotus strategy they probably should have gone electric or at very least traded Elise chassis for 2007 Tesla shares.....
Colin Chapman's mentality was not a simple philosophy of light is best.
It was to make each part of a car do as many jobs as possible and as such lightness will follow.
Look at the cars released by Lotus when ACBC was still alive for what is true Lotus philosophy.
The current Elise and Exige stripped out racecars for the road are the exception and not the norm.
Lotus's role now within this group should be the HQ for advanced technology development with the car manufacturing being a method of showing off what their engineers can do.
Imagine a fully active car, new carbon fibre/aluminiun/steel structure that is light and has Lotus feel.
I know the idea of a modern Lotus scares people but it really shouldn't. There is a gap in the market for an active and light car. The lightest fully active Porsche is 1400kg!
Just imagine an Exige with Lotus dynamics minus the compromises. I'm thinking accurate steering feel on the roughest b roads, limit handling performance which is linear up to Vmax, active dynamics that let you push harder on the track.
There is the alternative view that they should just be simple and cheap cars. Imo this is and never was Lotus. Lotus was a leader and should strive to be a leader again.
It was to make each part of a car do as many jobs as possible and as such lightness will follow.
Look at the cars released by Lotus when ACBC was still alive for what is true Lotus philosophy.
The current Elise and Exige stripped out racecars for the road are the exception and not the norm.
Lotus's role now within this group should be the HQ for advanced technology development with the car manufacturing being a method of showing off what their engineers can do.
Imagine a fully active car, new carbon fibre/aluminiun/steel structure that is light and has Lotus feel.
I know the idea of a modern Lotus scares people but it really shouldn't. There is a gap in the market for an active and light car. The lightest fully active Porsche is 1400kg!
Just imagine an Exige with Lotus dynamics minus the compromises. I'm thinking accurate steering feel on the roughest b roads, limit handling performance which is linear up to Vmax, active dynamics that let you push harder on the track.
There is the alternative view that they should just be simple and cheap cars. Imo this is and never was Lotus. Lotus was a leader and should strive to be a leader again.
I had a deposit on an Evora 400 earlier this year but for financial reasons had to back out. At the time I was gutted as I loved the ‘rawness’ of the car, the sound it made was incredible and it’s very niche and not a mass produced ‘Euro box’.
That said the car was up at £83,000 and that is a lot of money. My heart can appreciate why you would pay that as it’s Lotus, niche, special and so on but in hind sight my head is shouting ‘what were you thinking!’. That puts it in direct line of sight with many other premium cars, maybe not as raw or special but with a stronger dealer network and reputation and let’s not forget that 400bhp in a car that’s not really that light will now struggle against many hot hatches at almost half the price!
If you poke around the Evora, as a product it’s difficult to see where the £83k is, purely as the sum of its parts; Toyota Camry engine, Avensis gearbox, Alpine headunit - doesn’t sound like the stuff of dreams. As a general consumer I want to feel like I’m sat in an £83,000 car which, honestly, I didn’t but at the time I was happy to forget that, as my heart said yes because of the reasons above.
I guess you have to be a ‘car guy’, ‘fan boy’ or similar to warrant the expense and to really appreciate that you are paying for proper engineering that you can’t see, rather than electric this and automatic that which just add weight and complexity. Luckily for Porsche they attract the car guy, the fan boy and the badge snob alike as they have a solid product and a name they can, and do, trade on.
Lotus are stuck between a rock and hard place; I think their current products are over priced, their heritage means they deserve to be up there with McLaren and they deserve more than just pumping out c£30k sports cars but compare an Evora GT430 and a 540C and to me they are poles apart in terms of product quality but not so much in terms of price.
That said the car was up at £83,000 and that is a lot of money. My heart can appreciate why you would pay that as it’s Lotus, niche, special and so on but in hind sight my head is shouting ‘what were you thinking!’. That puts it in direct line of sight with many other premium cars, maybe not as raw or special but with a stronger dealer network and reputation and let’s not forget that 400bhp in a car that’s not really that light will now struggle against many hot hatches at almost half the price!
If you poke around the Evora, as a product it’s difficult to see where the £83k is, purely as the sum of its parts; Toyota Camry engine, Avensis gearbox, Alpine headunit - doesn’t sound like the stuff of dreams. As a general consumer I want to feel like I’m sat in an £83,000 car which, honestly, I didn’t but at the time I was happy to forget that, as my heart said yes because of the reasons above.
I guess you have to be a ‘car guy’, ‘fan boy’ or similar to warrant the expense and to really appreciate that you are paying for proper engineering that you can’t see, rather than electric this and automatic that which just add weight and complexity. Luckily for Porsche they attract the car guy, the fan boy and the badge snob alike as they have a solid product and a name they can, and do, trade on.
Lotus are stuck between a rock and hard place; I think their current products are over priced, their heritage means they deserve to be up there with McLaren and they deserve more than just pumping out c£30k sports cars but compare an Evora GT430 and a 540C and to me they are poles apart in terms of product quality but not so much in terms of price.
I think under the circumstances, he did a great job. Remember, when he took over Lotus, there were grave doubts about whether it would survive - it was losing money, had just lost a controversial MD, seemed to have no strategy going forward and it's owners had their own problems and seemingly little interest in it.
With very little resource, he has managed to turn it into a profitable company. Yes I am sure there are those who bemoan the sacking of engineers and the scaling back of new model development, but when there is no money, there is no point in trying to do these things. And would a new Elise really have made that much difference to sales ? The Elise competes against what exactly ? A Caterham ? Do people who buy Elises really consider many other cars ? Under the circumstances, i think he was totally correct to improve & upgrade the current models, and sell them for more money.
It's a great pity that now there is probably some real investment in the company, he has not been given the opportunity to take Lotus to the next level. The politics behind this move must be intriguing....
With very little resource, he has managed to turn it into a profitable company. Yes I am sure there are those who bemoan the sacking of engineers and the scaling back of new model development, but when there is no money, there is no point in trying to do these things. And would a new Elise really have made that much difference to sales ? The Elise competes against what exactly ? A Caterham ? Do people who buy Elises really consider many other cars ? Under the circumstances, i think he was totally correct to improve & upgrade the current models, and sell them for more money.
It's a great pity that now there is probably some real investment in the company, he has not been given the opportunity to take Lotus to the next level. The politics behind this move must be intriguing....
Colonel D said:
I don`t see how a Lotus SUV would be a great move, not straight away anyway. Louts have a certain market right now and it won`t just expand with an SUV launch, another 2 seater is just aiming at the already existing small market. They need a 4 door saloon, a couple of boring models and then maybe an SUV or a modern day Carlton after they increase sales.
No one is buying 4 door saloons across the whole autromotive sector, Audi, Ford, BMW, Volvo, JLR all selling less and less saloons across the board - the one thing Lotus need not to do is build a 4 door saloon.GranCab said:
Who needs a Lotus SUV, built in China, for the vast Chinese market when there is already a cracking Chinese-built SUV that carries the marque of a great British (defunct) sports car manufacturer ....
How many F1 world championships did MG win again ? 
I don’t think you can compare MG & Lotus heritage. It would be really silly wouldn’t it ?
matfitzpatrick said:
I had a deposit on an Evora 400 earlier this year but for financial reasons had to back out. At the time I was gutted as I loved the ‘rawness’ of the car, the sound it made was incredible and it’s very niche and not a mass produced ‘Euro box’.
That said the car was up at £83,000 and that is a lot of money. My heart can appreciate why you would pay that as it’s Lotus, niche, special and so on but in hind sight my head is shouting ‘what were you thinking!’. That puts it in direct line of sight with many other premium cars, maybe not as raw or special but with a stronger dealer network and reputation and let’s not forget that 400bhp in a car that’s not really that light will now struggle against many hot hatches at almost half the price!
If you poke around the Evora, as a product it’s difficult to see where the £83k is, purely as the sum of its parts; Toyota Camry engine, Avensis gearbox, Alpine headunit - doesn’t sound like the stuff of dreams. As a general consumer I want to feel like I’m sat in an £83,000 car which, honestly, I didn’t but at the time I was happy to forget that, as my heart said yes because of the reasons above.
I guess you have to be a ‘car guy’, ‘fan boy’ or similar to warrant the expense and to really appreciate that you are paying for proper engineering that you can’t see, rather than electric this and automatic that which just add weight and complexity. Luckily for Porsche they attract the car guy, the fan boy and the badge snob alike as they have a solid product and a name they can, and do, trade on.
Lotus are stuck between a rock and hard place; I think their current products are over priced, their heritage means they deserve to be up there with McLaren and they deserve more than just pumping out c£30k sports cars but compare an Evora GT430 and a 540C and to me they are poles apart in terms of product quality but not so much in terms of price.
Fair post.That said the car was up at £83,000 and that is a lot of money. My heart can appreciate why you would pay that as it’s Lotus, niche, special and so on but in hind sight my head is shouting ‘what were you thinking!’. That puts it in direct line of sight with many other premium cars, maybe not as raw or special but with a stronger dealer network and reputation and let’s not forget that 400bhp in a car that’s not really that light will now struggle against many hot hatches at almost half the price!
If you poke around the Evora, as a product it’s difficult to see where the £83k is, purely as the sum of its parts; Toyota Camry engine, Avensis gearbox, Alpine headunit - doesn’t sound like the stuff of dreams. As a general consumer I want to feel like I’m sat in an £83,000 car which, honestly, I didn’t but at the time I was happy to forget that, as my heart said yes because of the reasons above.
I guess you have to be a ‘car guy’, ‘fan boy’ or similar to warrant the expense and to really appreciate that you are paying for proper engineering that you can’t see, rather than electric this and automatic that which just add weight and complexity. Luckily for Porsche they attract the car guy, the fan boy and the badge snob alike as they have a solid product and a name they can, and do, trade on.
Lotus are stuck between a rock and hard place; I think their current products are over priced, their heritage means they deserve to be up there with McLaren and they deserve more than just pumping out c£30k sports cars but compare an Evora GT430 and a 540C and to me they are poles apart in terms of product quality but not so much in terms of price.
I can't see why Porsche shouldn't be the model for Lotus, they have the heritage.
A range of premium models, aimed at being the sportiest in each sector, which finance a number of lower production track/weekend cars for the enthusiast? Suspect that many GT2/3/4 owners will also have a Cayenne.
PtheP said:
I see 'Lotus' and 'SUV' in the same sentence and my heart sinks.
It’s a niche that is desperately crying out for Lotus though. They should have leapt into it a long time ago and added lightness and performance. Chapman would have been all over it, probably even defined it by putting the S into SUV. He was a visionary who would never have missed such an enormous opportunity to make such easy money. Gameface said:
From Lotus to dodgy JD Classics.
He'll go from hero to zero for many on here.
What a strange move.
Next step, working from home and getting some VistaPrint cards made up with ‘consultant’ on them while asking his parents to equity release their house to pay the school fees so as to still be able to go skiing at the right resorts. He'll go from hero to zero for many on here.
What a strange move.
ESOG said:
I'll tell you what a TRUE "diseased mentality" is....
It is thinking that Lotus feels it must jump into the SUV producing pool and thinking people will actually buy such a product from them. I am truly astounded how there isn't more of an uproar and written\voiced opinion on the matter.
FOR GODSSAKE LOTUS FORGET ABOUT THIS SUV NONSENSE AND FRIGGEN BUILD AN AFFORDABLE FUN ELAN LIKE CAR ALREADY!!!! Think the 90s; ELAN M100, MR2s, S2000's, Miata, etc. Be the leader in that class.
Unfortunately basic economics says that you are wrong. No one wants cheap little sports cars. Even the king is dead. Mazda has to find a partner to justify the last incarnation of the MX5. And they are a global manufacturer able to bring full economies of scale and cheap third world labour to bear. Conversely, the whole world wants an SUV, they are hugely profitable regardless of the end of the market and so fat that Lotus could make a real impact if they actually built a Lotus SUV rather than rebadging something. It is thinking that Lotus feels it must jump into the SUV producing pool and thinking people will actually buy such a product from them. I am truly astounded how there isn't more of an uproar and written\voiced opinion on the matter.
FOR GODSSAKE LOTUS FORGET ABOUT THIS SUV NONSENSE AND FRIGGEN BUILD AN AFFORDABLE FUN ELAN LIKE CAR ALREADY!!!! Think the 90s; ELAN M100, MR2s, S2000's, Miata, etc. Be the leader in that class.
If Mazda cannot even make a cheap sports car anymore without help just how would Lotus do this?
Kolbenkopp said:
ESOG said:
FOR GODSSAKE LOTUS FORGET ABOUT THIS SUV NONSENSE AND FRIGGEN BUILD AN AFFORDABLE FUN ELAN LIKE CAR ALREADY!!!! Think the 90s; ELAN M100, MR2s, S2000's, Miata, etc. Be the leader in that class.
Not easy to improve on the MX5 and make any money. It would have been easier if Mazda had not reversed the trend with the current itreation. But the ND is light (~ 1 ton, not much fatter than some late Elises) and now available with a 184 HP NA engine -- peak power @ 7k rpm as well!I'd love to see that happen -- but it's a tall order, even if they could secure a massive investment from their Chinese owners. More than happy to be proven wrong, but I doubt they'll make anything under 40k GBP in the future. The range starts about there now that the NA Elise is history.
Exige77 said:
GranCab said:
Who needs a Lotus SUV, built in China, for the vast Chinese market when there is already a cracking Chinese-built SUV that carries the marque of a great British (defunct) sports car manufacturer ....
How many F1 world championships did MG win again ? I don’t think you can compare MG & Lotus heritage. It would be really silly wouldn’t it ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG-Lola_EX257
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