RE: BMW M135i xDrive confirmed with 306hp four-pot

[Ares]

Max_Torque said:

PH said:

While the old rear-driven six-pot M140i and its closest predecessors had more power than the upcoming model, the traction advantage and, according to BMW, a more tractable turbocharged engine suggest an M135i xDrive will have better real-world performance. Indeed, the M140i has never been a hot hatch chosen for its outright pace but rather its more traditional powertrain and driveline layout. The two-axle-driven rivals from VW and AMG have more often than not been the quicker point-to-point machines.

what?

a 140i, is a turbo charged 3.0 litre engine making 340bhp and 500Nm.

This new engine is a 2.0 turbo charged engine making 306bhp and xxx Nm (where xxx is less than 500Nm)


As the new engine has a litre less swept capacity, to make the same torque it must be more heavily boosted so to suggest it will be "more tractable" is clearly absolute bobins.

The reason a Golf R is potentially faster A-B is because it has 4wd, but ime, a 140i is actually faster because it has more power and significantly less loss in its 2wd drivetrain. Yes, in the wet, on tight twisty roads the golf is quicker, but in reality there's not going to be much in it, either way.

standing 1/4 mile:
Golf R = 13.4s
140i between 12.8 and 13.1 sec as far as i can tell.

N'ring lap:
Golf R = 8.14
140i = 7.54



140i_quicker_round_track_than_golfr
drag_race

The current engine is such a low tune though, plenty of 3.0 turbos are kicking 500bhp (including from BMW) - a 300bhp 2.0 doesn't need to be automatically less tractable.

[Oily76]

aeropilot said:

I wouldn't bank on it, given MIni's don't and this it is basically a 'big Mini all4' but just wearing a different frock.

The Topgear article on it yesterday said it has 2 diffs on the front axle and doesn't understeer as a consequence.

[Oily76]

Ares said:

The current engine is such a low tune though, plenty of 3.0 turbos are kicking 500bhp (including from BMW) - a 300bhp 2.0 doesn't need to be automatically less tractable.

I'd have thought a low tune would make an engine more, rather than less, tractable?

[moffat]

Such a shame.

I think I could have accepted xDrive had they retained the epic B58, but to drop to the same level as VW and MB is a disappointment.

The Golf R sounds average as does the A45 (bit more pops and bangs).

The new M140i has lost the plot with:

1. Inferior sound
2. 4 pot
3. Less power than before
4. Less torque than before
5. Potentially less tuning opps
6. Too similar to the competition

All those citing mpg should understand that the B58 is very good and will easily get 38-45mpg on a motorway cruise. I can easily get 40mpg from my 440i (MPPSK) which is both heavier and more powerful.

Fingers crossed it's a good steer or should I say cheap PCP as BMW are going to lose out to the Golf R now.

[Baldchap]

MJ85 said:

Golf R is 310 PS, so i'm not sure how this is more powerful?

Because VW doesn't currently sell a 310ps Golf R.

[J4CKO]

moffat said:

Such a shame.

I think I could have accepted xDrive had they retained the epic B58, but to drop to the same level as VW and MB is a disappointment.

The Golf R sounds average as does the A45 (bit more pops and bangs).

The new M140i has lost the plot with:

1. Inferior sound
2. 4 pot
3. Less power than before
4. Less torque than before
5. Potentially less tuning opps
6. Too similar to the competition

All those citing mpg should understand that the B58 is very good and will easily get 38-45mpg on a motorway cruise. I can easily get 40mpg from my 440i (MPPSK) which is both heavier and more powerful.

Fingers crossed it's a good steer or should I say cheap PCP as BMW are going to lose out to the Golf R now.

Its an M135i, the 40 bit is reserved for the six cylinder stuff, which the 2 series will apparently still be.

I think BMW will give it some driving enjoyment, they want to sell more of them, not less. the current models look like hairy chested dinosaurs (like many of us on here )

Its sometimes worth a quick reality check as we appear to have got blase about yet another 300 odd bhp 4wd hot hatch that a lot of people can work into heir finances somehow, a lot bought a one series as it was a BMW, about the right size, despite it being RWD with the packaging constrains and traction disadvantages in inclement weather, they generally dont care otherwise.

Its not standing out spec wise, but does it need to, it should be pretty well engineered, its got enough power and four wheel drive, there was never really any other option for this next iteration in terms of drive layout.

Think we always expect more with each new car released, but the new bits wont be apparent in the spec, its down to driving it and more subtle things than cylinder count and power output.

Looks wise, its going to look like a hatchback, four doors and a tailgate, it will be about the same size and look more or less like a BMW, thats what BMW hatchbacks look like, it isnt going to look like a Muira, form follows function, and legislation, kind of why they all look a bit similar.

I think it should be pretty good, like the A35, Golf R etc are, whether its better is for when the road tests start happening.

[C70R]

aaron_2000 said:

Why would you actually buy the BMW now? The steering on recent BMWs isn't particularly good, they all look pretty generic now, in fact some even look outright ugly. With the new powertrain it's just gonna be like every other hot hatch, so other than good lease deals, why would you? The Megane is looking better and better every day.

Because 97%+ of people who buy a 1-series don't give a single sh*t about the number of cylinders or driven wheels.

This idea that BMW's most mass-market car should somehow cater for the enthusiast is PH delusion at its finest.

[aaron_2000]

C70R said:

aaron_2000 said:

Why would you actually buy the BMW now? The steering on recent BMWs isn't particularly good, they all look pretty generic now, in fact some even look outright ugly. With the new powertrain it's just gonna be like every other hot hatch, so other than good lease deals, why would you? The Megane is looking better and better every day.

Because 97%+ of people who buy a 1-series don't give a single sh*t about the number of cylinders or driven wheels.

This idea that BMW's most mass-market car should somehow cater for the enthusiast is PH delusion at its finest.

I agree, the idea that BMW's hot hatch should cater for the enthusiast is absolutely delusion. Maybe read what I wrote before replying?

[Bicronical]

So I'm assuming that the new M2 will also be 4x4 / 2 litre?

Is there a maximum power that can be sourced from the BMW 2litre or can they build what they like i.e. F1 engines are small and have huge power?

on the subject of 4x4 and the often quoted 0-60.... whilst I'm sure the 0-60 will be quicker in the new car, I'm struggling to believe the real world comparison will be anything like the M140....

I once swapped an E60 M5 for a 911 4S (997.1), on paper they were roughly the same 0-60.
Lord did I get a shock when I started opening up the 911... nothing like the usable power the M5 had.
OK, the 911 had better balance and brakes and would be quicker on a track or if driving through the lanes with the assumption that nobody else is on the road.... but how often is that a reality?

Since that day I have been very sceptical of 0-60 times fully representing the performance capability of a car.... (or the quarter mile as this obviously includes the 0-60 element).

[C70R]

aaron_2000 said:

C70R said:

aaron_2000 said:

Why would you actually buy the BMW now? The steering on recent BMWs isn't particularly good, they all look pretty generic now, in fact some even look outright ugly. With the new powertrain it's just gonna be like every other hot hatch, so other than good lease deals, why would you? The Megane is looking better and better every day.

Because 97%+ of people who buy a 1-series don't give a single sh*t about the number of cylinders or driven wheels.

This idea that BMW's most mass-market car should somehow cater for the enthusiast is PH delusion at its finest.

I agree, the idea that BMW's hot hatch should cater for the enthusiast is absolutely delusion. Maybe read what I wrote before replying?

I didn't say anywhere that I disagreed with you.

[aaron_2000]

C70R said:

aaron_2000 said:

C70R said:

aaron_2000 said:

Why would you actually buy the BMW now? The steering on recent BMWs isn't particularly good, they all look pretty generic now, in fact some even look outright ugly. With the new powertrain it's just gonna be like every other hot hatch, so other than good lease deals, why would you? The Megane is looking better and better every day.

Because 97%+ of people who buy a 1-series don't give a single sh*t about the number of cylinders or driven wheels.

This idea that BMW's most mass-market car should somehow cater for the enthusiast is PH delusion at its finest.

I agree, the idea that BMW's hot hatch should cater for the enthusiast is absolutely delusion. Maybe read what I wrote before replying?

I didn't say anywhere that I disagreed with you.

Which makes your reply very odd. I asked why anyone would now go for the M135i over any other hot hatch, you replied:

"Because 97%+ of people who buy a 1-series don't give a single sh*t about the number of cylinders or driven wheels."

And:

"This idea that BMW's most mass-market car should somehow cater for the enthusiast is PH delusion at its finest."

If you don't disagree with me, that's a very odd way of showing it.

[HighwayStar]

Bicronical said:

So I'm assuming that the new M2 will also be 4x4 / 2 litre?

Why? It’s known, BMW have said, the 2 series will stay RWD.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/06/14/future-bmw-2-se...

[furryba11]

I have a feeling this will bite them in the bum from many ways, sound, performance, feel ...

And the one I'm most interested to see if MPG, my old M135i used to easily average 42+ mpg in eco pro with cruise control on a 60 mile motorway trip.. I wonder what a heavily turbo charged 4pot will do..

After all they must be making the change under the veil of economy rather than performance.....?

[HighwayStar]

furryba11 said:

I have a feeling this will bite them in the bum from many ways, sound, performance, feel ...

And the one I'm most interested to see if MPG, my old M135i used to easily average 42+ mpg in eco pro with cruise control on a 60 mile motorway trip.. I wonder what a heavily turbo charged 4pot will do..

After all they must be making the change under the veil of economy rather than performance.....?

They're making the change because of economies of scale and freeing up interior space. Yes the loss of the straight 6 and RWD will be mourned by some but... you only have to read past thread re RWD BMWs... plenty saying they wouldn't buy a BMW because they were useless in the winter. So wings and roundabouts. Some will look elsewhere because the new 1 'will the same as the A class/Golf/A3,' Others will look at the 1 because it will now be another option where it wasn't before. I wouldn't be surprised if BMW still pull something out the bag compared to it's similar configured rivals. They have a way of doing things.

[kambites]

HighwayStar said:

Bicronical said:

So I'm assuming that the new M2 will also be 4x4 / 2 litre?

Why? It’s known, BMW have said, the 2 series will stay RWD.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/06/14/future-bmw-2-se...

I think you're both right. The M2 coupe will probably have a six cylinder RWD setup (although I suppose longitudinal engined 4wd isn't out of the question); the 2GC is looking like it'll be transverse engined so if they create an M2 GC it will probably have this drivetrain.

[RobM77]

A 4WD 4-pot? Surely that's removed the main selling points of the current car? Pointless.

[HighwayStar]

RobM77 said:

A 4WD 4-pot? Surely that's removed the main selling points of the current car? Pointless.

I never truly understand such statements
Pointless? Really! Let's agree for enthusiasts of RWD it's pointless. So for everyone else... They simply won't buy it? It won't sell?
Coming at it from another way... An ex girlfriend had an Audi A5 cabriolet, not a Quattro. She had no idea it was front wheel drive, in fact which were the driven wheels. IF VAG and Merc can sell 4WD 4-pot, and remember Merc were only RWD in the past, BMW will be able to sell the same config.. Especially, as I mentioned earlier, if their take on the setup is a cut above what they others offer. I'm not talking about outright performance which has never really been BMWs thing.

[aaron_2000]

HighwayStar said:

RobM77 said:

A 4WD 4-pot? Surely that's removed the main selling points of the current car? Pointless.

I never truly understand such statements
Pointless? Really! Let's agree for enthusiasts of RWD it's pointless. So for everyone else... They simply won't buy it? It won't sell?
Coming at it from another way... An ex girlfriend had an Audi A5 cabriolet, not a Quattro. She had no idea it was front wheel drive, in fact which were the driven wheels. IF VAG and Merc can sell 4WD 4-pot, and remember Merc were only RWD in the past, BMW will be able to sell the same config.. Especially, as I mentioned earlier, if their take on the setup is a cut above what they others offer. I'm not talking about outright performance which has never really been BMWs thing.

The selling point of BMW was always straight 6 and RWD, not a generic 4 pot with fake pops and crackles with AWD. It's just silly to say otherwise. It's gonna sell, it's too generic not to. AWD, copy and paste 4 pot, some loud exhaust and likely some good lease deals. I can just see it now being ragged through Bradford in drive and comfort mode with some laughable private plate in white with black curbed wheels. Why be different when every car looks the same anyway? I mean look at it, it'd be cruel to put a 6 Pot and RWD in that, then you'd have to decide if the powertrain was worth being seen in a car that ghastly.

[aeropilot]

Oily76 said:

aeropilot said:

I wouldn't bank on it, given MIni's don't and this it is basically a 'big Mini all4' but just wearing a different frock.

The Topgear article on it yesterday said it has 2 diffs on the front axle and doesn't understeer as a consequence.

Two diffs.............

I'll have a pint of that please


Quaife/Torsen style unit with some added electrickery would be the most likely, as per Focus RS and other 50:50 split transverse engine awd systems.

[RobM77]

HighwayStar said:

RobM77 said:

A 4WD 4-pot? Surely that's removed the main selling points of the current car? Pointless.

I never truly understand such statements
Pointless? Really! Let's agree for enthusiasts of RWD it's pointless. So for everyone else... They simply won't buy it? It won't sell?
Coming at it from another way... An ex girlfriend had an Audi A5 cabriolet, not a Quattro. She had no idea it was front wheel drive, in fact which were the driven wheels. IF VAG and Merc can sell 4WD 4-pot, and remember Merc were only RWD in the past, BMW will be able to sell the same config.. Especially, as I mentioned earlier, if their take on the setup is a cut above what they others offer. I'm not talking about outright performance which has never really been BMWs thing.

Yes, pointless. Really. Perhaps I should explain further?

It's certainly not pointless for BMW, because it'll sell and make them a profit. However, it's pointless for us as consumers to have yet another 4WD turbocharged 4 pot 2L hatchback, because we already have the A45 AMG, Golf R, S3 and Ford Focus. I don't know about you, but what I want to see in any sector is variety; I think that's good for consumers. Having top of the range performance hatchbacks with all the same footprint, body style, engine type, and drivetrain is seriously limiting choice for buyers. Those things I just listed define how a car handles, with the only other variable being setup; so we'll end up with five near identical cars that drive slightly differently depending on their exact suspension design, geometry values, damping etc. Just think if the Audi was a 5 pot 4WD, the Golf 4 pot 4WD (as it is), the Focus a manic front driver with a high boost 4cyl (as it used to be), the AMG Merc a bigger capacity V6 with rear drive, and the BMW a naturally aspirated straight 6 with rear drive (as it used to be). There would even be room for an Alfa in there with a n/a V6 and rear drive. How rich is that choice? And what have we got? an endless line of 4WD turbocharged 4 pots. :yawn: Pointless.