RE: Litchfield adds 200hp to 992 Carrera 911

[TobyTR]

Griffgrog said:

It looks like Litchfield have clarified the press release - https://www.motor1.com/news/367403/porsche-992-car...

The 992 Carrera has smaller turbos so won't deliver the 580bhp the 992 Carrear S does.

Litchfied have tuned the smaller turbo engine on the 991 Carrera T with great results as PH told last year - https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-driven/litchfi...

So it's not a 200bhp increase from a re-map after all then? I'm confused

[ATM]

Augustus Windsock said:

wab172uk said:

The real Grey area, and one I disagree with, is people getting a car on PCP, tuning it up, then putting it back to standard just before they hand it back. The next owner then has the potential costs of something going wrong, as extra strain has been put on parts that shouldn't have had.

I presume you’re not just singling out ‘owners’ who have a car on PCP?
I’m sure it’s endemic with many people who are lucky enough to buy outright, and sits right alongside ‘mileage correction’ (ahem!) as being part of the dark arts of ownership and subsequent sale of peoples pride and joy...
Out of interest I wonder how many owners will risk invalidating their warranty by having this remap? Because as sure as eggs are eggs, Porsche will seek to dismiss any warranty claim if 3rd party witchcraft has been exercised on their carefully developed car....

This is always a risk buying 2nd hand. You have no way of knowing what's been done to the car before you get it. You can make the same argument for people hammering their new car on track and then passing it off to the next guy. Porsche even do this themselves with their press cars. At least if you buy a Porsche you can still have a Porsche warranty just in case if you're prepared to jump through their hoops. I think these low mileage lease deals are making this situation worse. Apparently 4000 or 5000 miles per year lease deal cars are regularly clocked and it's made the whole cottage industry even more in demand. It's simply credit companies becoming too clever to get business out of Joe Public and basically like the credit crunch was with property.

[Lowtimer]

TobyTR said:

So it's not a 200bhp increase from a re-map after all then? I'm confused

There is plenty of evidence that a Carrera S actually produces around 485 hp, which means it's probably more like a 95 hp increase. Which is still quite a lot of extra power for a 3.0 litre engine but way less headline-worthy

[Kubevoid]

For most people the official Turbo model is now redundant. Face it, the entry level car IS now a Turbo. You may as well opt for the lighter simpler car and enjoy virtually 600bhp.

Down the line will be interesting. All that shove for circa £30k used as they churn them out.

What next? 700bhp from the factory in a Carrera with 1000bhp remap? Sounds absurd but won't be far off.

Makes a mockery of the older so called fast top tier models. A tad slow and over priced now aren't they!

[SidewaysSi]

Kubevoid said:

For most people the official Turbo model is now redundant. Face it, the entry level car IS now a Turbo. You may as well opt for the lighter simpler car and enjoy virtually 600bhp.

Down the line will be interesting. All that shove for circa £30k used as they churn them out.

What next? 700bhp from the factory in a Carrera with 1000bhp remap? Sounds absurd but won't be far off.

Makes a mockery of the older so called fast top tier models. A tad slow and over priced now aren't they!

Of course they make a mockery in terms of pure speed; that's obvious. But with a remapped 992 and a tweaked 964 sat outside, it wouldn't even cross my mind to take the new car.

So the old stuff isn't overpriced- speed is of little interest sometimes.

[ATM]

SidewaysSi said:

But with a remapped 992 and a tweaked 964 sat outside, it wouldn't even cross my mind to take the new car.

I'd like to disagree. Not quite the same but I've got a tweaked 1998 996 c2 and a vanilla 981s. Sometimes the new car has its place. Sometimes the old school car wins. Life is all about choices but if you only have one Porsche outside then it can be less perplexing.

[Kubevoid]

Si, I also have a soft spot for a 964 RS clone in RHD with a 360bhp NA engine. What more could you need. They are cool. Even if dead slow compared to the new cars coming.

What I'm getting at really is... The high prices some pay / ask for say a GT2 variant. 996 onwards. Now redundant, along with all official Turbo models.

RS may stand alone due to their sharper steer. But still, the prices are daft. Half a million for the new RS GT2. No faster than a boggo Carrera with a map now. You just know that will bug many who assumed they were top of the heap, so to speak.

Fast forward a few years... All of the above for £30k used. A crazy new world.

Edited by Kubevoid on Friday 30th August 11:16

[TobyPS]

"The development car we used was a Carrera 4S but all the information we could find (mainly through the UK press) was that the European base Carrera would receive the same engine but in de-tuned form because of the latest emissions. The Porsche press release I saw here made no mention of small turbos but I’m more than happy to correct it if I’m wrong. Either way it’s an amazing engine.'

If I was going to launch a remap for a new Porsche the first thing I'd do is google the engine specification and put out a press release based on that.

[ATM]

There are loads of subtle differences that are completely ignored if you just look at the engine. Even the 718 and 718S have different driveshafts - trust me I know. One is a 2l turbo 300bhp and the other 2.5l turbo 350bhp. Surely that's not what you would imagine but they are different. Why not just make the cars different by engine only. That's a question for Porsche.

[thegreenhell]

Kubevoid said:

Si, I also have a soft spot for a 964 RS clone in RHD with a 360bhp NA engine. What more could you need. They are cool. Even if dead slow compared to the new cars coming.

What I'm getting at really is... The high prices some pay / ask for say a GT2 variant. 996 onwards. Now redundant, along with all official Turbo models.

RS may stand alone due to their sharper steer. But still, the prices are daft. Half a million for the new RS GT2. No faster than a boggo Carrera with a map now. You just know that will bug many who assumed they were top of the heap, so to speak.

Fast forward a few years... All of the above for £30k used. A crazy new world.

Edited by Kubevoid on Friday 30th August 11:16

Yep, and a 250 GTO is only worth 50p now that Ferrari are churning out thousands of 488s, or whatever they call them now, which are so much faster than that old st.

[anonymous-user]

Kubevoid said:

Si, I also have a soft spot for a 964 RS clone in RHD with a 360bhp NA engine. What more could you need. They are cool. Even if dead slow compared to the new cars coming.
....

Totally agree. Not even that slow, in practice you're some sticky rubber away from keeping the bigger car in your sights.

[Kubevoid]

thegreenhell said:

Kubevoid said:

Si, I also have a soft spot for a 964 RS clone in RHD with a 360bhp NA engine. What more could you need. They are cool. Even if dead slow compared to the new cars coming.

What I'm getting at really is... The high prices some pay / ask for say a GT2 variant. 996 onwards. Now redundant, along with all official Turbo models.

RS may stand alone due to their sharper steer. But still, the prices are daft. Half a million for the new RS GT2. No faster than a boggo Carrera with a map now. You just know that will bug many who assumed they were top of the heap, so to speak.

Fast forward a few years... All of the above for £30k used. A crazy new world.

Edited by Kubevoid on Friday 30th August 11:16

Yep, and a 250 GTO is only worth 50p now that Ferrari are churning out thousands of 488s, or whatever they call them now, which are so much faster than that old st.

I'd hardly compare a 996 GT2 to a 250 GTO, but fill yer boots

[Lowtimer]

Kubevoid said:

What I'm getting at really is... The high prices some pay / ask for say a GT2 variant. 996 onwards. Now redundant, along with all official Turbo models.

RS may stand alone due to their sharper steer. But still, the prices are daft. Half a million for the new RS GT2. No faster than a boggo Carrera with a map now. You just know that will bug many who assumed they were top of the heap, so to speak.

Fast forward a few years... All of the above for £30k used. A crazy new world.

No, this is complete rubbish. People want these cars for so much more than some notional 0-120 number.

For 30 years a base model 911 has had more straight-line acceleration than a '73 2.7 RS, and that has not prevented the 2.7 RS from being prized and wanted. For the last 10 years most low/mid range 911s have been quicker in a straight line than a 996 GT3. That has not prevented the 996 GT3 being prized and wanted. Same for the 930 Turbo.

A base model 718 will eat a 928 GTS for breakfast, performance -wise, but the 928 GTS market is extremely healthy.

There may be a few people around who are sufficiently infantile to believe that numerical acceleration data is all that matters, but they are not the people who drive values of used 911s, or indeed other Porsches.

Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 30th August 13:12

[Kubevoid]

I thought I made it clear the RS models may be different due to being a sharper steer. But that was clearly lost.

I was comparing the cars which sell on power alone really. Such as the Turbo and non RS GT2... effectively a softer variant, aka RWD Turbo road going car

However feel free to fume away

[Kawasicki]

Onehp said:

Yes Porsche is always 'overengineered' in the sense that you can do 50 hard launches and drive it on the track without it budging... Trade that for some temporary extra boost, sure it's possible but it's not the same as a 'real' Turbo (S), I'm sure. When it comes.

Yes Porsche Volvo, VW, BMW and also Porsche etc may use the same block and general architecture for different powered versions, but many details can differ on the lower powered version of which mere mortals or even tuners can't tell unless they have pulled apart both to the last bolt, not even that suffices. Spare part catalogues are not necessarily a help as they may indeed only list the highest spec version to save cost.
This can be stuff such as lower alloy grade for the pistons, valves, crankaxle, injectors etc inside the engine. Also auxiliaries may have a cheaper spec that isn't instantly apparent by just looking under the hood. Fuel, oil, and water pumps, coolers, turbines, bearings, the list goes on. Can be completely invisible things, like higher spec on the balancing of the turbos, different tolerances of valve guides or bores etc.

Just to say I'm very sceptical when someone claims 'it's the same engine'...

Edited by Onehp on Thursday 29th August 15:26

From my experience you are correct.

[ATM]

I remember the first day I saw a 996 gt2. It was brand new in the window of a Porsche dealer. It was only silver but oh my god I had a full on throbber. I could still get excited about one but the pirces now are crazy. To drive (or to scare myself) I'd just 2wd a standard 996 turbo.

[Lowtimer]

Kubevoid said:

I thought I made it clear the RS models may be different due to being a sharper steer. But that was clearly lost.

I was comparing the cars which sell on power alone really. Such as the Turbo and non RS GT2... effectively a softer variant, aka RWD Turbo road going car

However feel free to fume away

That's why 930, 964 and 993 turbos are being given away for £30K then, right>
Oh, wait...

[Kubevoid]

...and the price of used Carreras is... (you know, the car we are talking about)...

Do keep up at the back

[James NF]

Can the Transmission (I mean EVERY COMPONENT between engine and road surface) ‘hack it’?

[zebede]

Who knows but there’s one way to find out!!