RE: Alpine | PH Meets
Discussion
anonymous said:
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Can I ask what you're hoping to achieve with this comment and the others along similar lines?You must know that calling people "fanboys" (unarguably a term intended to insult) and accusing them of losing their minds isn't conducive to intelligent, reasoned conversation.
anonymous said:
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Were it ACTUALLY 1310kg that might be true. http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel3711-4516.htm says the CLAIMED weight is 1425kg and the verified EU weight is 1518 kg (which includes 75kg for the driver - making the DIN weight 1443kg). Other independent road tests give similar figures The 718 is unquestionably over 1400kg - WLTP makes it impossible to play fast and loose with the figures which many manufacturers have been doing for years. So you have to conclude that either Porsche have completely lost the plot on weight control with both 981 and 718 over the years OR the 981 figure was fanciful. I notice that Porsche are still claiming silly figures on their configurator - but the weight of each individual model with the options selected has to be declared with each car. In some countries (perhaps all) the WLTP weight has to be shown on the vehicle itself.
Plenty of independent tests show that the Alpine actually IS around the 1100kg mark (DIN). Alpine made great play of the fact that the weight was a true one - implying that other manufacturers figures were misleading - and that has proved to be the case.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 11th October 09:26
bcr5784 said:
Were it ACTUALLY 1310kg that might be true. http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel3711-4516.htm says the CLAIMED weight is 1425kg and the verified EU weight is 1518 kg (which includes 75kg for the driver - making the DIN weight 1443kg). Other independent road tests give similar figures
The 718 is unquestionably over 1400kg - WLTP makes it impossible to play fast and loose with the figures which many manufacturers have been doing for years. So you have to conclude that either Porsche have completely lost the plot on weight control with both 981 and 718 over the years OR the 981 figure was fanciful. I notice that Porsche are still claiming silly figures on their configurator - but the weight of each individual model with the options selected has to be declared with each car. In some countries (perhaps all) the WLTP weight has to be shown on the vehicle itself.
Plenty of independent tests show that the Alpine actually IS around the 1100kg mark (DIN). Alpine made great play of the fact that the weight was a true one - implying that other manufacturers figures were misleading - and that has proved to be the case.
It can't just be the engine and size of the Cayman which adds to the weight. You can tell it's heavier just by closing the doors and boot lids. Other things add up as well - smaller wheels, compact brake structures, suspension, the Sabelt seats. Each and every item was designed for less weight. Assuming a like for like engine (if you can squeeze one into the Alpine), there will still be a sizable gap in weight between the two cars. The 718 is unquestionably over 1400kg - WLTP makes it impossible to play fast and loose with the figures which many manufacturers have been doing for years. So you have to conclude that either Porsche have completely lost the plot on weight control with both 981 and 718 over the years OR the 981 figure was fanciful. I notice that Porsche are still claiming silly figures on their configurator - but the weight of each individual model with the options selected has to be declared with each car. In some countries (perhaps all) the WLTP weight has to be shown on the vehicle itself.
Plenty of independent tests show that the Alpine actually IS around the 1100kg mark (DIN). Alpine made great play of the fact that the weight was a true one - implying that other manufacturers figures were misleading - and that has proved to be the case.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 11th October 09:26
You have to admire the Alpine ethos especially when Porsche can only come up with the fabric door pulls and removing the stereo as part of their weight saving programme.
I'm less concerned about engine origins and more interested in what it does and what is packaged around it.
Seems to have worked for a few others as well. BMW M12/13 anyone?? F1 engine based on road-car 4-pots with 100,000k on them. Lotus have done ok with hatchback engines.
F1 did ok with firepump engines...
The packaging in the Alpine is superb- the lightweight shines through- supple suspension as it's not having to suspend 400kg from each corner. I would have liked a 6 pot but then it would have moved the price up and might have involved other compromises.
I know quite a few porsche owners and none of them seem so uptight about an Alpine in the real world. Nobody cares. Some see the competition as a good thing as it is, possibly, an incentive for Porsche to make the next-gen a bit lighter.
Main thing is to be happy driving the car you have- if not then sell it and buy something else.
Seems to have worked for a few others as well. BMW M12/13 anyone?? F1 engine based on road-car 4-pots with 100,000k on them. Lotus have done ok with hatchback engines.
F1 did ok with firepump engines...
The packaging in the Alpine is superb- the lightweight shines through- supple suspension as it's not having to suspend 400kg from each corner. I would have liked a 6 pot but then it would have moved the price up and might have involved other compromises.
I know quite a few porsche owners and none of them seem so uptight about an Alpine in the real world. Nobody cares. Some see the competition as a good thing as it is, possibly, an incentive for Porsche to make the next-gen a bit lighter.
Main thing is to be happy driving the car you have- if not then sell it and buy something else.
anonymous said:
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If you're going to reference my posts then please do so correctly. My post was in response to this one from Timomak"Some mighty big presumptions there bcr5784, both about me and also about everybody else !
I always read the same st on here, 'oh you don't like the Alpine, must not have driven it then' as if it's not possible to dislike it for any other reason.
Car is massively overpriced, and will return to market values in due course. Of course if you don't give a st about that then crack on, in my view there's a lot better options out there particularly if you're spending 50 grand. Having Clio switchgear and the association with Renault just puts it in a different price point."
That is the posting of a clown - read the comment
the weight thing has been done to death before in another thread.
As an example of the Porsche porky-pies here is a recent test on evo - https://www.evo.co.uk/supertest/21777/alpine-a110-...
I know ths is a new 718 and not a 981s but the same applies with Porsche weight calculations- file in fiction.
Porsche is 94kg over the claimed figure and that has PCCB so that saves a lot of weight.
Fully kitted Alpine PE comes in at 1094kg which is under the weight claimed.
As an example of the Porsche porky-pies here is a recent test on evo - https://www.evo.co.uk/supertest/21777/alpine-a110-...
I know ths is a new 718 and not a 981s but the same applies with Porsche weight calculations- file in fiction.
Porsche is 94kg over the claimed figure and that has PCCB so that saves a lot of weight.
Fully kitted Alpine PE comes in at 1094kg which is under the weight claimed.
anonymous said:
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It was a simple question - no need for you to get into hysterics about it, wet yourself, and throw up pea soup everywhere. 
There - see how easy it is to paint someone as unhinged, and then dismiss everything they say on that basis? I apologise for the above remark, which was intended only to illustrate how name-calling spoils discussion.
I'm simply pointing out that if you stopped calling people "fanboys" and making silly accusations about their state of mind, this could be a genuinely interesting and worthwhile discussion. I didn't know, for example, about the makeup of the Boxter/Cayman - that was informative.
anonymous said:
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Read what I wrote. I compared the computed DIN figure for the 981S - the real world measured EU (not Porsche's claimed) - 75kg = 1443kg with the typical measured weight of the Alpine PE. 1105kg claimed and measured at 1098 to 1110. Actually the figure from the same source ZEperf gives a figure of 1130 DIN for the Alpine - I've never seen any test that heavy but lets accept that there is a 313kg difference between a high spec Alpine and a high spec 981 of similar performance and equipment. Comparing a base spec 2.7 (which I doubt has ever been used as a press car) with a far faster and much better equipped Alpine is plain silly. Put sat nav, decent sound system, climate, PDK etc etc in any 981S (or base 718) and you will come up with 300kg or more.A few weight facts here https://www.evo.co.uk/supertest/21777/alpine-a110-...
Alpine PE is 11kg less than claimed, 718S 94kg more than claimed and 355kg more than Alpine. True tha base 718 may be a fairer comparison - according to Porsche it's 20kg less - so maybe only 335kg difference.
Alpine PE is 11kg less than claimed, 718S 94kg more than claimed and 355kg more than Alpine. True tha base 718 may be a fairer comparison - according to Porsche it's 20kg less - so maybe only 335kg difference.
bcr5784 said:
A few weight facts here https://www.evo.co.uk/supertest/21777/alpine-a110-...
Alpine PE is 11kg less than claimed, 718S 94kg more than claimed and 355kg more than Alpine. True tha base 718 may be a fairer comparison - according to Porsche it's 20kg less - so maybe only 335kg difference.
Wouldn’t normally disagree with you bcr but I think the s is the fairer comparison based on performance like for likeAlpine PE is 11kg less than claimed, 718S 94kg more than claimed and 355kg more than Alpine. True tha base 718 may be a fairer comparison - according to Porsche it's 20kg less - so maybe only 335kg difference.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
OK; he shouldn't have said "clown" once.How many times have you called people "fanboys" or made wild accusations about their state of mind so far? Even here you're making accusations about my intentions - "virtue signalling" and "point scoring" rather than accepting that calling people "fanboys" is insulting and not part of grown-up discussion.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
But are trying to talk like for like - performance for performance, equipment for equipment - it's the only valid basis for making a judgement about whether Porsche have done a good job on weight control. Come on! The Evo test shows the TTRS to be only 35kg more than the 718S, despite it being 4wd, 4 seats, more powerful, and both longer and wider. That says to me that even Audi are doing a better job than Porsche on weight control.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 11th October 14:14
The PDK Cayman 718 is 1365kg DIN before options versus 1110kg DIN for the Alpine.
The 718 Cayman T (with flimsy door pull) is 1380kg as a PDK
The 718 Cayman GTS PDK is 1405kg
All DIN figures.
Given the Alpine is a higher spec its looking like 255 -275 kg of lard in the lightest Porsche.
There is nothing to suggest the 981 weights would be much different to these.
All the Porsche figures from Porsche.com by the way.
The 718 Cayman T (with flimsy door pull) is 1380kg as a PDK
The 718 Cayman GTS PDK is 1405kg
All DIN figures.
Given the Alpine is a higher spec its looking like 255 -275 kg of lard in the lightest Porsche.
There is nothing to suggest the 981 weights would be much different to these.
All the Porsche figures from Porsche.com by the way.
springfan62 said:
The PDK Cayman 718 is 1365kg DIN before options versus 1110kg DIN for the Alpine.
Not that it really matters but where does the 1110kg come from? Alpine quote 1098kg for the Pure, 1114 for the S, 1123 for the Legende and (if I remember correctly) 1127kg for a fully optioned Legende. All except the Pure can be made a few kilos lighter by specifying the forged wheels. Remember the T does not have an infotainment system to make it seem lighter (but as usual with Porsche) it is a no cost option which everyone will specify.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 11th October 14:30
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