RE: Jaguar E-Type V8 | The Brave Pill
Discussion
Agree totally that this car is massively over-priced, particularly given that the 2+2 is the least desirable E-Type by a considerable margin - don't think that the asking price is much different to what an original RHD Series 2 2+2 would make at auction.
But moving onto a wider point, I agree completely that a significant portion of the classic car market is driven by those who lusted after a particular car in their youth, who have reached the point in their life where they are able to indulge themselves. Clearly, this is a time-limited phenomenon, after which the value of these kind of purchases diminishes - the poster who identified the Mk1 & Mk2 Escorts hit the nail on the head - looked at objectively, cars such as early Escorts and Capris are frankly not terribly good (Escort rallying success not withstanding - for example, I would argue BL could have had equivalent results with the Marina in period, had they devoted the same resources as Ford, and offered the same support to privateers), and as result prices must fade in time, in real terms.
However, the elite end of the classic market does not follow the same rules, where cars have (unfortunately) become investments, in a similar manner to artworks, bought to sit, unused, in air-conditioned storage facilities, in some cases by owners who have never even seen the car. To do this a car must both be an icon and in limited supply, this includes Bugattis, and classic Ferraris, but does it include the E-Type? I would suggest that it might, but that this is less certain, but probably does not include the 2+2.
What has happened to the value of 1930s cars is a good illustration of this - if we look back to the early 80's it was possible to buy a Lotus Elan for less than the cost of a good Austin 7, something that is utterly inconceivable today. Austin 7s are not much more expensive in absolute terms (i.e. much less in real terms) than they were in the 1980s, while the absolute price of, say, a WO Bentley has increased by an order of magnitude.
Overlying this is that our view of the icons of the past evolves, and thus the status of cars against their peers changes. I would argue that the E-Type is likely to be seen forever as an icon of the 1960s, and that there will always be ready buyers (if not for over-priced mongrels of 2+2s), but that the image of the E-Type is not quite what it once was.
Please feel free to disagree, with a reasoned argument.
But moving onto a wider point, I agree completely that a significant portion of the classic car market is driven by those who lusted after a particular car in their youth, who have reached the point in their life where they are able to indulge themselves. Clearly, this is a time-limited phenomenon, after which the value of these kind of purchases diminishes - the poster who identified the Mk1 & Mk2 Escorts hit the nail on the head - looked at objectively, cars such as early Escorts and Capris are frankly not terribly good (Escort rallying success not withstanding - for example, I would argue BL could have had equivalent results with the Marina in period, had they devoted the same resources as Ford, and offered the same support to privateers), and as result prices must fade in time, in real terms.
However, the elite end of the classic market does not follow the same rules, where cars have (unfortunately) become investments, in a similar manner to artworks, bought to sit, unused, in air-conditioned storage facilities, in some cases by owners who have never even seen the car. To do this a car must both be an icon and in limited supply, this includes Bugattis, and classic Ferraris, but does it include the E-Type? I would suggest that it might, but that this is less certain, but probably does not include the 2+2.
What has happened to the value of 1930s cars is a good illustration of this - if we look back to the early 80's it was possible to buy a Lotus Elan for less than the cost of a good Austin 7, something that is utterly inconceivable today. Austin 7s are not much more expensive in absolute terms (i.e. much less in real terms) than they were in the 1980s, while the absolute price of, say, a WO Bentley has increased by an order of magnitude.
Overlying this is that our view of the icons of the past evolves, and thus the status of cars against their peers changes. I would argue that the E-Type is likely to be seen forever as an icon of the 1960s, and that there will always be ready buyers (if not for over-priced mongrels of 2+2s), but that the image of the E-Type is not quite what it once was.
Please feel free to disagree, with a reasoned argument.
John Locke said:
The Autocar 24th March 1961. Happy to send the full piece to anyone interested; PM me.
They attempted to recreate this run for Octane magazine a few years back too. On a German autobahn they got to just over 146 but ran out of room down to traffic. The driver thought it should make 150 thoughhttps://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
s m said:
They attempted to recreate this run for Octane magazine a few years back too. On a German autobahn they got to just over 146 but ran out of room down to traffic. The driver thought it should make 150 though
https://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
Thats an interesting article thank you. https://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
Jonny TVR said:
s m said:
They attempted to recreate this run for Octane magazine a few years back too. On a German autobahn they got to just over 146 but ran out of room down to traffic. The driver thought it should make 150 though
https://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
Thats an interesting article thank you. https://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
Jonny TVR said:
s m said:
They attempted to recreate this run for Octane magazine a few years back too. On a German autobahn they got to just over 146 but ran out of room down to traffic. The driver thought it should make 150 though
https://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
Thats an interesting article thank you. https://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/david-franklin-recre...
Argleton said:
In a complete round about to this example, I see Steve Coogans very early S1 roadster (I think it was a pre-production test car, or press one, not entirely sure) is up for auction. Brought back to completely restored original look.
Guide price around £300,000.
Who is it up for auction with?Guide price around £300,000.
matchmaker said:
If you're going to stick a V8 in an E type, why not put in a Daimler 2.5 or (even better) 4.5? A lot lighter than the XK.
True that the Daimler V8 was a LOT lighter than the Jag XK, but then again, so is the Ford 302 V8 that they have put in it, as its about 100lbs lighter than the XK.aeropilot said:
matchmaker said:
If you're going to stick a V8 in an E type, why not put in a Daimler 2.5 or (even better) 4.5? A lot lighter than the XK.
True that the Daimler V8 was a LOT lighter than the Jag XK, but then again, so is the Ford 302 V8 that they have put in it, as its about 100lbs lighter than the XK.biggbn said:
aeropilot said:
matchmaker said:
If you're going to stick a V8 in an E type, why not put in a Daimler 2.5 or (even better) 4.5? A lot lighter than the XK.
True that the Daimler V8 was a LOT lighter than the Jag XK, but then again, so is the Ford 302 V8 that they have put in it, as its about 100lbs lighter than the XK.John Locke said:
I don't know how many PHers drove them as cheap used cars 40 - 50 years ago, but my experience is that well maintained early FHC cars with a few miles under them (50,000 +) would eventually wind themselves past an indicated 150 mph the final 20 mph requiring a long clear road. My assumption was that in common with most cars of the period that the speedometer flattered the car by 5 -10%, until I found this:
showing that the reverse is the case.
Performance was extremely sensitive to correct ignition timing and carburation; when servicing them I frequently found cars with one or more throttle butterflies not opening fully, incorrect mixture settings, and ignition retarded to allow the use of 4 star petrol rather than the specified more expensive 5 star.
Other impressions; the Moss gearbox didn't like attempts at rapid changes, but was very strong. The original R5 tyres were shocking by today's standards, Michelin XASs improved grip tremendously, the brakes were good, by 1960s standards, but the servo assistance poor.
Interesting that even in the later test the speedo was still only 2mph optimistic at 140mphshowing that the reverse is the case.
Performance was extremely sensitive to correct ignition timing and carburation; when servicing them I frequently found cars with one or more throttle butterflies not opening fully, incorrect mixture settings, and ignition retarded to allow the use of 4 star petrol rather than the specified more expensive 5 star.
Other impressions; the Moss gearbox didn't like attempts at rapid changes, but was very strong. The original R5 tyres were shocking by today's standards, Michelin XASs improved grip tremendously, the brakes were good, by 1960s standards, but the servo assistance poor.
I get the arguments around the various faults of the E type, but really, its a 60 + year old design, its not perfect, and never was, but would I as a 48 year old classic car enthusiast want one, absolutely, just not this one! I would take either an early FHC or a convertible, I don't subscribe to the age thing dimming their status, as these will always be desirable, but should there be a market crash on these, sign me up.
I really wouldn't want to do 150 MPH in one of these, but that isn't the point of it these days is it?
I really wouldn't want to do 150 MPH in one of these, but that isn't the point of it these days is it?
I would, and keep the engine as well! EXCEPT that the steering wheel is on the wrong side. Call me wimpy if you want but I've never got on with that. Drive on the "wrong side" of the road in an RHD car, no problem, been all over Europe like that. Drive in a LHD car, serious issues!
But, other than that, and with the V8 in there I can see converting the steering position being, um, awkward?, I would.
Right colour too!
But, other than that, and with the V8 in there I can see converting the steering position being, um, awkward?, I would.
Right colour too!
waynecyclist said:
Argleton said:
In a complete round about to this example, I see Steve Coogans very early S1 roadster (I think it was a pre-production test car, or press one, not entirely sure) is up for auction. Brought back to completely restored original look.
Guide price around £300,000.
Who is it up for auction with?Guide price around £300,000.
s m said:
John Locke said:
I don't know how many PHers drove them as cheap used cars 40 - 50 years ago, but my experience is that well maintained early FHC cars with a few miles under them (50,000 +) would eventually wind themselves past an indicated 150 mph the final 20 mph requiring a long clear road. My assumption was that in common with most cars of the period that the speedometer flattered the car by 5 -10%, until I found this:
showing that the reverse is the case.
Performance was extremely sensitive to correct ignition timing and carburation; when servicing them I frequently found cars with one or more throttle butterflies not opening fully, incorrect mixture settings, and ignition retarded to allow the use of 4 star petrol rather than the specified more expensive 5 star.
Other impressions; the Moss gearbox didn't like attempts at rapid changes, but was very strong. The original R5 tyres were shocking by today's standards, Michelin XASs improved grip tremendously, the brakes were good, by 1960s standards, but the servo assistance poor.
Interesting that even in the later test the speedo was still only 2mph optimistic at 140mphshowing that the reverse is the case.
Performance was extremely sensitive to correct ignition timing and carburation; when servicing them I frequently found cars with one or more throttle butterflies not opening fully, incorrect mixture settings, and ignition retarded to allow the use of 4 star petrol rather than the specified more expensive 5 star.
Other impressions; the Moss gearbox didn't like attempts at rapid changes, but was very strong. The original R5 tyres were shocking by today's standards, Michelin XASs improved grip tremendously, the brakes were good, by 1960s standards, but the servo assistance poor.
daveco said:
Is there a website or a place one could look at/buy these road tests? loving the amount of detail/info given.
Back in the late 70's, Brooklands Books started compiling these old road tests into marque and model specific books, which are still available and being added to.Heres a link to the ones for all the Jaguar models
https://www.brooklandsbooks.co.uk/product-category...
HTH
Argleton said:
waynecyclist said:
Argleton said:
In a complete round about to this example, I see Steve Coogans very early S1 roadster (I think it was a pre-production test car, or press one, not entirely sure) is up for auction. Brought back to completely restored original look.
Guide price around £300,000.
Who is it up for auction with?Guide price around £300,000.
Jonny TVR said:
daveco said:
Is there a website or a place one could look at/buy these road tests? loving the amount of detail/info given.
The data/ drawings and graphs in these old road tests are fantastic. They should have stuff like that now. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff