RE: Ineos Grenadier production pushed back
Discussion
sisu said:
The 7.5kw powerboost is just a $750 option. It will power your house, not just a fridge and a tablet.. It will charge a Tesla in 3 hours.
As a work vehicle or utility tool this is the sort of thing that you want, it can't get nicked or lost and its the same space as the current one.
All of the coke fuelled ideas about this Ieminos Grenadier being a great UN vehicle wouldnt be out of place in the Lamborghini LM002 bonga bonga party back in the 80s.
That picture is hilarious. Who plays Mario Kart in the back of their F-150 while cutting things up with a circular saw?As a work vehicle or utility tool this is the sort of thing that you want, it can't get nicked or lost and its the same space as the current one.
All of the coke fuelled ideas about this Ieminos Grenadier being a great UN vehicle wouldnt be out of place in the Lamborghini LM002 bonga bonga party back in the 80s.
If the F-150 is that good as a utility vehicle, perhaps you should get in touch with the UN? They seem to prefer Toyotas.
Jon_S_Rally said:
sisu said:
The 7.5kw powerboost is just a $750 option. It will power your house, not just a fridge and a tablet.. It will charge a Tesla in 3 hours.
As a work vehicle or utility tool this is the sort of thing that you want, it can't get nicked or lost and its the same space as the current one.
All of the coke fuelled ideas about this Ieminos Grenadier being a great UN vehicle wouldnt be out of place in the Lamborghini LM002 bonga bonga party back in the 80s.
That picture is hilarious. Who plays Mario Kart in the back of their F-150 while cutting things up with a circular saw?As a work vehicle or utility tool this is the sort of thing that you want, it can't get nicked or lost and its the same space as the current one.
All of the coke fuelled ideas about this Ieminos Grenadier being a great UN vehicle wouldnt be out of place in the Lamborghini LM002 bonga bonga party back in the 80s.
If the F-150 is that good as a utility vehicle, perhaps you should get in touch with the UN? They seem to prefer Toyotas.
Still that is a lot of power out of the back of your truck in the middle of nowhere, and according to the Ford website it can power 28 refrigerators, so that's a lot of beer.
Jon_S_Rally said:
I assume you have sat in Ineos design meetings to know who is looking forward and who is looking back then? Or is that just an assumption based on your own bias?
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Is that the design meeting where they were trying to work out what setting to dial into the photocopier?? lol!.
Seriously, look at it, Seperate ladder chassis, beam axles and longitudinal links, transfercase and props etc. Why would i need to "sit in a design meeting" to see it's a design from 1950 not from 2020!
Jon_S_Rally said:
Again, we don't know what options and equipment will be available on the car. Will it immediately have a 250V output? Based on the current engine, perhaps not, but that's hardly going to determine the product's success or failure, is it? Especially when the F150 isn't sold globally, so isn't a rival for the Grenadier in many markets.
The point you may have missed is that the usefullness of an AC power outlet on a car is broadly driven by the power available on that vehicle, and lots of power means lots of volts. The F150, as an example, uses it's hybrid traction battery to drive AC accessories, which is why they can cheaply offer a very decent 7.5kW of AC power. The grenadire could of course have an inverter, but how is it going to power that inverter? A 7.5kW 12v alternator is MASSIVE, in fact, you'd need a 24v truck rated alternator really as otherwise the current gets silly (>500 amps).
And finally, we are not saying that the F150 is a direct competitor to the Grenadire, merely that it shows precisely the sort of foward looking thinking and real world useful options that become possible for a modern utility vehicle, ie one that is not based on a design from the 1950's....
Jon_S_Rally said:
sisu said:
Maldini35 said:
Nope - it’s bad marketing
Bored of it 18 months before it’s available.
That’s not good.
Not helped by COVID of course.
Heap on some bad feeling about production out of the UK (rightly or wrongly), polarising (charmless?) exterior design, complicated powertrains and a potentially higher purchase price than first thought and it looks like a tough sell.
Just because you're bored of it, does that mean that everyone else is? Or are you just assuming that because you aren't interested, and because you have bad feeling towards it?Bored of it 18 months before it’s available.
That’s not good.
Not helped by COVID of course.
Heap on some bad feeling about production out of the UK (rightly or wrongly), polarising (charmless?) exterior design, complicated powertrains and a potentially higher purchase price than first thought and it looks like a tough sell.
I'm certainly not saying it's definitely going to be a success, because it is entering an extremely challenging segment, but most of the "bad marketing" or "it's going to fail" talk on here is driven by personal opinion, or ill feeling towards the project.
.
I do think the exterior design is pretty average, lacking appeal but accept that it is subjective.
I was just listing a few things which seem to regularly crop up.
- Many people seem to dislike the styling
- Many people are annoyed at production based out of the UK
- Many people have questioned the suitability of the BMW turbo engines and auto transmissions for the rufty-tufty proposed usage.
Plenty of evidence of the above on PH.
As for the marketing, well I don’t think it’s been handled very well and a lot of the content created is pretty pedestrian and feels 20 years old, but again I accept this is subjective (all be it based on 20 years industry experience).
As you say, maybe not everybody is bored of it already but these long drawn out launches never really deliver the Big Bang in my experience.
I genuinely don’t wish ill of the project - the truth is I’m totally ambivalent.
The car is so different from the original concept trumpeted years ago, it now seems like just another off-roader as opposed to anything definitive.
It all just feels a bit pointless.
A vanity project that has been compromised by commercial realities.
I certainly don’t hope it fails but I struggle to care if it succeeds or not.
Judging by your busy afternoon on here defending the whole project you should join their PR team.
Edited by Maldini35 on Friday 14th May 23:17
jeremy996 said:
They started with a clean sheet and set out to build a 4x4 utility vehicle, not a luxury SUV. All of the major decisions are logical, so long as you don't want a PCP'ed status symbol.
I have no doubt the sheet was clean, but it was placed on top of a defender drawing and they didn't do a great job with the tracing.JD said:
jeremy996 said:
They started with a clean sheet and set out to build a 4x4 utility vehicle, not a luxury SUV. All of the major decisions are logical, so long as you don't want a PCP'ed status symbol.
I have no doubt the sheet was clean, but it was placed on top of a defender drawing and they didn't do a great job with the tracing.
And then a pesky foreigner drew a Mahindra face on it.
Jon_S_Rally said:
I'm not really sure what that has to do with the Grenadier? It's not a Land Rover? And an F-150 isn't really aimed at the same buyers as a Land Rover. One is a cheap pick-up, the other is a lifestyle SUV that used to be a utility 4x4.
More to the point, does it actually matter if it outsells any of its rivals? Ineos will have a sales target in order for them to make a profit. That's the number they will care about, not how many rednecks by an F-150, or how many posh t
ts by a Defender.
Rednecks and posh tMore to the point, does it actually matter if it outsells any of its rivals? Ineos will have a sales target in order for them to make a profit. That's the number they will care about, not how many rednecks by an F-150, or how many posh t
ts by a Defender.ts? This is the bit that I don't get, I had a friend who built a 50s VW/Porsche racer coupe and it dominates his life, like someone who has an article of clothing that defines their personality. I said "Spike Feresten has rebuilding his Zagato 356 you should listen to his podcast, here's the link" His reply next time we met was "Oh I couldn't listen more than 5 minutes of it with that American accent" Most small car makers are built using a wealthy client or that client builds it himself. This is no different, saying that an SUV/4x4 in todays market is crying out for a car that stopped production 5 years ago is madness.
We haven't even looked at the main motivators in this market, women. If they don't want it or what it says about them then you have a problem.
Max_Torque said:
er, the F150 power options available are as a direct result of it being a hybrid now! When you've got a socking great battery, with a 400v DC link, adding a "AC utilities" power output feature is not a costly or difficult exercise.
If you only have an ICE, then its a non starter because even 3kW, enough for a toaster or kettle, or single power tool, is >250 amps at 12v, and would require an enourmous alternator and primary battery.
Basically agree.If you only have an ICE, then its a non starter because even 3kW, enough for a toaster or kettle, or single power tool, is >250 amps at 12v, and would require an enourmous alternator and primary battery.
However you can run a kettle, power drill, mircowave even, off a 3-4kw inverter run off a bank of four 12v batteries. Practically half the narrowboats and motorhomes in the world do it.
Daniel
dhutch said:
This.
Producing the car in France is only outrageous because he was pro Brexit. Or atleast pro 'trade unit not US of Europe' which got translated into leaving the trade union.
Daniel
Plus you can easily buy a French factory and workforce, making cuts and getting out of it later on is next to impossible. It'll break even Ineos's bank.Producing the car in France is only outrageous because he was pro Brexit. Or atleast pro 'trade unit not US of Europe' which got translated into leaving the trade union.
Daniel
Max_Torque said:
Is that the design meeting where they were trying to work out what setting to dial into the photocopier?? lol!
Seriously, look at it, Seperate ladder chassis, beam axles and longitudinal links, transfercase and props etc. Why would i need to "sit in a design meeting" to see it's a design from 1950 not from 2020!
But maybe that technology was chosen for a reason? They could have fitted air suspension, used a monocoque etc etc, but I assume they didn't do that because they want to keep it as simple as possible. Like an old Land Rover, you can likely pull it apart easily and replace bits as needed. Not everything needs to use the latest technology in order to meet its purpose.Seriously, look at it, Seperate ladder chassis, beam axles and longitudinal links, transfercase and props etc. Why would i need to "sit in a design meeting" to see it's a design from 1950 not from 2020!
Is there a demand for such a vehicle? Time will tell but, Nissan still produce the Y61 Patrol for certain markets, while Toyota still make the J70 Land Cruiser too, so there is obviously a market for older, simpler off-road vehicles.
Max_Torque said:
The point you may have missed is that the usefullness of an AC power outlet on a car is broadly driven by the power available on that vehicle, and lots of power means lots of volts. The F150, as an example, uses it's hybrid traction battery to drive AC accessories, which is why they can cheaply offer a very decent 7.5kW of AC power.
The grenadire could of course have an inverter, but how is it going to power that inverter? A 7.5kW 12v alternator is MASSIVE, in fact, you'd need a 24v truck rated alternator really as otherwise the current gets silly (>500 amps).
And finally, we are not saying that the F150 is a direct competitor to the Grenadire, merely that it shows precisely the sort of foward looking thinking and real world useful options that become possible for a modern utility vehicle, ie one that is not based on a design from the 1950's....
I haven't missed anything. I am saying that we don't know what options will be available on the Grenadier. It may be available with power options, it may be available as a hybrid in the future (so could offer what you describe) or, coming at it from the other way, they may have decided that such things are not necessary for the markets in which the vehicle will be sold.The grenadire could of course have an inverter, but how is it going to power that inverter? A 7.5kW 12v alternator is MASSIVE, in fact, you'd need a 24v truck rated alternator really as otherwise the current gets silly (>500 amps).
And finally, we are not saying that the F150 is a direct competitor to the Grenadire, merely that it shows precisely the sort of foward looking thinking and real world useful options that become possible for a modern utility vehicle, ie one that is not based on a design from the 1950's....
You're obsessing over the aged design of the Genadier, but maybe that is what some markets WANT - see my comments about the Nissan and Toyota above.
Maldini35 said:
No bad feeling here.
I do think the exterior design is pretty average, lacking appeal but accept that it is subjective.
I was just listing a few things which seem to regularly crop up.
- Many people seem to dislike the styling
- Many people are annoyed at production based out of the UK
- Many people have questioned the suitability of the BMW turbo engines and auto transmissions for the rufty-tufty proposed usage.
Plenty of evidence of the above on PH.
As for the marketing, well I don’t think it’s been handled very well and a lot of the content created is pretty pedestrian and feels 20 years old, but again I accept this is subjective (all be it based on 20 years industry experience).
As you say, maybe not everybody is bored of it already but these long drawn out launches never really deliver the Big Bang in my experience.
I genuinely don’t wish ill of the project - the truth is I’m totally ambivalent.
The car is so different from the original concept trumpeted years ago, it now seems like just another off-roader as opposed to anything definitive.
It all just feels a bit pointless.
A vanity project that has been compromised by commercial realities.
I certainly don’t hope it fails but I struggle to care if it succeeds or not.
Judging by your busy afternoon on here defending the whole project you should join their PR team.
The main question I would ask to the above is, is PH the appropriate barometer for a vehicle like this? How many folk on here are likely to buy one? It seems to me that this vehicle is much more likely to end up in foreign markets.I do think the exterior design is pretty average, lacking appeal but accept that it is subjective.
I was just listing a few things which seem to regularly crop up.
- Many people seem to dislike the styling
- Many people are annoyed at production based out of the UK
- Many people have questioned the suitability of the BMW turbo engines and auto transmissions for the rufty-tufty proposed usage.
Plenty of evidence of the above on PH.
As for the marketing, well I don’t think it’s been handled very well and a lot of the content created is pretty pedestrian and feels 20 years old, but again I accept this is subjective (all be it based on 20 years industry experience).
As you say, maybe not everybody is bored of it already but these long drawn out launches never really deliver the Big Bang in my experience.
I genuinely don’t wish ill of the project - the truth is I’m totally ambivalent.
The car is so different from the original concept trumpeted years ago, it now seems like just another off-roader as opposed to anything definitive.
It all just feels a bit pointless.
A vanity project that has been compromised by commercial realities.
I certainly don’t hope it fails but I struggle to care if it succeeds or not.
Judging by your busy afternoon on here defending the whole project you should join their PR team.
I have no interest in being on their PR team (though I do think any new vehicle brand is an interesting project), but I do think a few of the points on here needed countering.
sisu said:
Rednecks and posh tts? This is the bit that I don't get, I had a friend who built a 50s VW/Porsche racer coupe and it dominates his life, like someone who has an article of clothing that defines their personality. I said "Spike Feresten has rebuilding his Zagato 356 you should listen to his podcast, here's the link" His reply next time we met was "Oh I couldn't listen more than 5 minutes of it with that American accent"
Most small car makers are built using a wealthy client or that client builds it himself. This is no different, saying that an SUV/4x4 in todays market is crying out for a car that stopped production 5 years ago is madness.
We haven't even looked at the main motivators in this market, women. If they don't want it or what it says about them then you have a problem.
I have no idea what that first paragraph is about.ts? This is the bit that I don't get, I had a friend who built a 50s VW/Porsche racer coupe and it dominates his life, like someone who has an article of clothing that defines their personality. I said "Spike Feresten has rebuilding his Zagato 356 you should listen to his podcast, here's the link" His reply next time we met was "Oh I couldn't listen more than 5 minutes of it with that American accent" Most small car makers are built using a wealthy client or that client builds it himself. This is no different, saying that an SUV/4x4 in todays market is crying out for a car that stopped production 5 years ago is madness.
We haven't even looked at the main motivators in this market, women. If they don't want it or what it says about them then you have a problem.
Given the prices of used Defenders and, as I said above, both Toyota and Nissan have continued to build aged versions of 4x4 vehicles, do you really think it's "madness"? It seems to me that Ineos are just trying to take a piece of a well-established market, while also trading a bit on the association with the most iconic vehicle from that market.
As for female buyers, I think you're getting confused about who this vehicle is aimed at. It's not a Quashqui or Audi Q7, it's a utility off-roader, aimed at commercial users and those that want a basic, utilitarian vehicle.
sisu said:
So has anyone put a deposit down on one?
I would have done if it had a Perkins /cat engine and GKN axles and was built in the home of automotive innovation (U.K.) but as it’s a load of Chinese /french/ German tat it can stay on the drawing board ...What the idiot was thinking beats me when the U.K.
is head of the commonwealth and has trade deals in
Many of the countries who will still be driving ICE vehicles in 50+ years need a basic rugged vehicle.
And will be the dominant economic force when the water melons have achieved communism with the green agenda in the soft in the head west.
I have to say the project has lost its appeal for me, now that it has a German drive train and will be built in France. Rather than filling a gap, It may well fall through that between 4x4 Pick-ups and the new Defender ie over-priced against the former, and under-performing against the latter. We'll see.
jeremy996 said:
Just had a look at a Hilux; just too damn big. That also goes for the Ford Ranger, L200, Amarok etc. The F-150 is so laughably large for the UK, I'm not surprised it is not expected to be sold here.
I currently run a hilux in Active farmer/UN spec and can highly recommend it. Although it is quite long, it's actually surprisingly narrow. It's about as basic as a modern truck can legally be but does have manual AC, Bluetooth and I've fitted cruise control.If you want something shorter, then a utility spec Land Cruiser is worth a look. Similar basic spec to my Hilux but also available as a SWB.
Either option will give decades of reliable service if looked after.
Back on topic, i'm still interested in the Grenadier and hope it does make it to market. It might not make commercial sense but it's infinitely less dull than yet another over complicated, blingy SUV like the new Defender.
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