MX5 vs Elise - Debate
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Rawwr said:
heebeegeetee said:
I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5.
You'd be very surprised, then.Having driven a variety of Elises and MX5s I'd say this is one area where there is a *pronounced* difference, the elise is leagues more informative.
The reason is pretty simple, in addition to being a couple of hundred kg lighter overall the elise has a rear weight bias so the front axle has practically no weight on it at all compared to the heavier MX5 with its front mounted engine.
Not having power steering & yet not having to compensate that with a low ratio rack means all the movement & forces at the wheels come through louder and clearer.
To me the MX5 steering feels sporty, but in a conventional car kind of way, the elise is a different thing completely in this regard.
Its very geometry sensitive though, different (factory) setups make a dramatic difference to the way it feels & handles.
I really like MX5s so, no offence, but you seem far too sure of your opinions about the elise for someone who has zero direct experience. Seems more like the mx5 fan in you talking.
hairykrishna said:
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it's a bad car or that it in anyway handles badly. I just found that, when stacked up against comparable sports cars, I found it wanting.
Yep, I think 'the cult of the MX5' is sometimes slightly overplayed. To be fair, the term comparable sports cars may be a little harsh on the Mk1 MX5 though - Boxsters and Elise are considerably more expensive to buy, 944s are more expensive to maintain and the Mk1 MR2 (as far as I'm aware) doesn't offer quite the same practicality. The MX5 scores highly for being quite good at everything, but it's not short of cars which can out do it in any given area.
Like you say - it's not a bad car - indeed for its price, practicality and general usability it's an extremely good one, but it's not the messiah.
OnlyMX5ives said:
Rawwr said:
heebeegeetee said:
I gotta be honest, i doubt it.
Ok, myself, having experience with both can tell you, outright and categorically that the steering feel in the Elise is a world apart from that of the MX5.If we are going for full on thread drift then a Westy is cheaper and way better than the Elise in every way regarding handling and feel.
I wouldn't want either of them as an everyday car though.
Don't get me wrong, I like the MX5 a lot. It encourages the right amount of hooliganism and is an absolute hoot but to compare its steering feel to that of an Elise is a bit wrong.
SpeedyDave said:
The reason is pretty simple, the elise has a rear weight bias so the front axle has practically no weight on it at all compared to the heavier MX5 with its front mounted engine.
Hmmm...So the Elise has no weight on the front wheels...
and the MX5 is almost perfect 50:50 front to rear.
I think we've just answered the 'handling' question.
Handling and what makes good handling is subjective. In terms of balance I rate the Mk3 Mr2 higher than the MX-5 on a track. However on a road I'd take the MX-5 every single time, because it's much more fun. The Elise is pretty much a different ball game. If you imagine a scale with an MX-5 on one end and a Caterfield on the other, the Elise sits near as damnit smack in the middle. It has some of the road manners of the MX-5 but is nowhere near as refined, and it has some of the track manners of a Caterfield but is nowhere near as hardcore.
What I'm saying is you're comparing chalk and cheese. A more sensible comparison would be MX-5 vs Mr2. The Elise however has it's little niche of the market all to itself.
What I'm saying is you're comparing chalk and cheese. A more sensible comparison would be MX-5 vs Mr2. The Elise however has it's little niche of the market all to itself.
Edited by juansolo on Monday 12th January 15:42
OnlyMX5ives said:
SpeedyDave said:
The reason is pretty simple, the elise has a rear weight bias so the front axle has practically no weight on it at all compared to the heavier MX5 with its front mounted engine.
Hmmm...So the Elise has no weight on the front wheels...
and the MX5 is almost perfect 50:50 front to rear.
I think we've just answered the 'handling' question.
1. Tyres don't have to be the same sizes front/rear, and often aren't.
2. The front & rear are not doing exactly the same job
3. 50:50 gives no indication of precisely *where* the weight is, ie concentrated at the center as in mid engined, or at each end such as front engine / rear gearbox. The two will handle very differently.
The fact you consider 50:50 some form of 'perfection' suggests you're overlooking a lot. Many race cars are deliberately designed miles away from 50:50 for good reason.
juansolo said:
Handling and what makes good handling is subjective. In terms of balance I rate the Mk3 Mr2 higher than the MX-5 on a track. However on a road I'd take the MX-5 every single time, because it's much more fun. The Elise is pretty much a different ball game. If you imagine a scale with an MX-5 on one end and a Caterfield on the other, the Elise sits near as damnit smack in the middle. It has some of the road manners of the MX-5 but is nowhere near as refined, and it has some of the track manners of a Caterfield but is nowhere near as hardcore.
What I'm saying is you're comparing chalk and cheese. A more sensible comparison would be MX-5 vs Mr2. The Elise however has it's little niche of the market all to itself.
That's exactly why I bought one. I wanted the fun of a raw sportscar like a caterfield but I wanted to be able to use to go away for weekends. The Elise is a good compromise, if a little too far towards the caterfield end. I love the rawness of the car but I'd like a little more useable luggage space and a more practical hood. i.e. quicker up and down. If I had bought an MX5, like I was going to, I would be looking for more rawness and some more power. Either way, either is achievable with aftermarket goodies.What I'm saying is you're comparing chalk and cheese. A more sensible comparison would be MX-5 vs Mr2. The Elise however has it's little niche of the market all to itself.
Curses, the magazine that i was looking for isn't the magazine i was looking for. So i've come down from the loft clutching a pile of magazines with articles on Elise, MX5 and Boxster, which all sing the praises of the cars respective steering, but I was interested in the one article where they decided an MX5 was a better drivers car than the Elise, for whatever reason that was. I think its fair to say that the steering of the Elise is the best out there, but i'm just curious as to how much better, and does that detract from the other cars to a great degree?
Look, if i didn't like the car, it would go. I don't like buying and selling cars and i tend to hang on to what i've got, but the moment i get bored with a car it has to go. I don't see a car as somehow reflecting my personality nor my knowledge about cars, not at all. If i've made a wrong decision i have no hesitation in saying so.
Digging through past magazines though, i've found some interesting finds: The CAR supplement of its 10 greatest sports cars of all time (published 2002) of all time, in order: 911, MX5, E-Type, Elan (old), Elise, Lotus 7, Alfa Romeo Spider, Ferrari 250GT SWB, Dino, Sting Ray.
Another magazine lists it Top Ten Cusp Classics (interesting): Impreza 2000, Elise, Griff, MX5, 456GT, NSX, 968, Escort Cossie, Fiat Coupe, BMW Z1.
I mean, say what you like, this is exalted company this humble little roadster is keeping, and there ain't much there that i would argue with. (Wouldn't have the Alfa Spider in the top 10 but there you go)
SpeedyDave said:
Its very geometry sensitive though, different (factory) setups make a dramatic difference to the way it feels & handles.
Yes, and that's true of the MX5. There is absolutely loads of reading available on all the different settings you can apply to a 5, *all within the factory specifications* which are wider than they should be imo. I think this is as much a negative as it is a positive, and imo accounts for when people say that they've driven or owned an MX5 and can't undersdtand what the fuss is about. Personally i think adj susp is a PITA and i personally think it should be part of the MOT at the owners expense. It took me 3 attempts to get mine right, indeed the one 'specialist' left my car in a dangerous state. Actually, 2 did, thinking back. And mine still never was absolutely 100% spot on, but was totally transformed nevertheless and even now is utterly foolproof, even with a 50% increase in bhp. And on the original clutch at 90k (20k smiles supercharged). And still on the original suspension, which i desperately need to sort now).SpeedyDave said:
I really like MX5s so, no offence, but you seem far too sure of your opinions about the elise for someone who has zero direct experience. Seems more like the mx5 fan in you talking.
Maybe, i am indeed very enamored with the little car. I've had it a few years now and i see it staying for a few years. I enjoy driving it, and am looking forward to new suspension and an lsd, when i think i'll be into a whole new ball game all together. Mine is an uncherished, unwashed daily driver that has never let me down. The only problem i've ever had with it is the door locks freeze in the cold weather. Had to change a headlight bulb on it the other day, 5 minutes to read the book 2 minutes to change and i even had a bulb in stock. How many modern cars can you do that with?Look, if i didn't like the car, it would go. I don't like buying and selling cars and i tend to hang on to what i've got, but the moment i get bored with a car it has to go. I don't see a car as somehow reflecting my personality nor my knowledge about cars, not at all. If i've made a wrong decision i have no hesitation in saying so.
Digging through past magazines though, i've found some interesting finds: The CAR supplement of its 10 greatest sports cars of all time (published 2002) of all time, in order: 911, MX5, E-Type, Elan (old), Elise, Lotus 7, Alfa Romeo Spider, Ferrari 250GT SWB, Dino, Sting Ray.
Another magazine lists it Top Ten Cusp Classics (interesting): Impreza 2000, Elise, Griff, MX5, 456GT, NSX, 968, Escort Cossie, Fiat Coupe, BMW Z1.
I mean, say what you like, this is exalted company this humble little roadster is keeping, and there ain't much there that i would argue with. (Wouldn't have the Alfa Spider in the top 10 but there you go)
Edited by heebeegeetee on Monday 12th January 16:43
Rawwr said:
Go drive one and you'll see what we mean
Well i need to own one really. I'm not a fan of a test drive, i've argued on PH before (with little support i must say) that i really think you learn very little and you don't get into the character of a car at all, from a test drive, so i would need to spend some time with one. I really like them, and when i bought the Boxster it actually was a choice between that and an Elise. I only chose the Boxster on the grounds that i knew which the wife would prefer, and that deep down i knew which car would suit us best. (We like taking the car on holidays). I guess i let head choose over heart. Trouble is, having bought a Boxster just before the credit crunch kicked in, 
i reckon i'm into ownership for quite some time to come. 
The other slight problem is that i deeply, deeply want to own an original Elan. I had the option to buy an excellent one ten years ago for £10k from a mate, and i'd known his car for 15 years or more, but i just couldn't make use of it at the time and had nowhere to keep it. But i've got to own one one day.
I think i need to look to hire an Elise for a weekend, i think that would be the answer.
Anyway, i think we've given the OP food for thought.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Monday 12th January 16:54
Altrezia said:
heebeegeetee said:
Well i need to own one really.
If you're not far from me, you can come and steal mine for a few hours.. I'm not nearby though, and of course i'd hate to criticise a car the use of which was obtained through kindness. Not that i'm expecting to criticise an Elise though.
heebeegeetee said:
but i'm just curious as to how much better,
heebeegeetee said:
and does that detract from the other cars to a great degree?
From the point of view of hardcore involvement on track its certainly a loss. For a more all around sportscar for the road the MX5 was designed to be the steering is bang on the money.Any judgement has to be in context of purpose.
heebeegeetee said:
SpeedyDave said:
Its very geometry sensitive though, different (factory) setups make a dramatic difference to the way it feels & handles.
Yes, and that's true of the MX5. There is absolutely loads of reading available on all the different settings you can apply to a 5, *all within the factory specifications* Firstly I think the elise feels much *more* sensitive to those geo variations precisely because it all comes straight through the steering and the seat. Varing the settings by the same amount in both cars results in a much more dramatic change in driver experience in the elise.
Second, I was talking about geometry as sold from the showroom floor (since once we start introducing aftermarket tweaking the handling debate widens) All cars geo is variable to at least some degree but typically cars are sold with a common factory settings per the workshop manual.
Elises have been sold with some very different settings depending on model, (eg anything from the base road car though to the 340R Dry Track settings) and they feel very very different so it depends a lot on which elise you're talking about.
heebeegeetee said:
And mine still never was absolutely 100% spot on, but was totally transformed nevertheless and even now is utterly foolproof,
I agree setup makes all the difference in the world, & generally isn't done very well. Plus if everything isn't in good condition (worn bushes etc) its easy to end up chasing settings around in circles.heebeegeetee said:
Maybe, i am indeed very enamored with the little car.
Well fair enough, they are a Good Thing (tm).Quite different to the Elise. Better? depends what for.
heebeegeetee said:
How many modern cars can you do that with?
Not enough, and probably not an Elise. That said Elises are worlds better than the 'old' Lotus reputation and being pretty simple cars not a great deal goes wrong with them. You can't beat mainstream Jap in this area though.heebeegeetee said:
Digging through past magazines though, i've found some interesting finds:
I've long since given up looking to magazines for 'the facts'. They can be interesting / informative but a lot is necessarily subjective, written to entertain, & often just feed what the reader expects to hear.I guess I just read too many car mags as a kid
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