RE: KTM X-Bow Production Halted

[ScottL]

Noger said:

1:23.1 from the Stig. Same as the GT3.

Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.

Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion

If you read my post again you'll see I said representative lap times. I also said the standard factory setup isn't optimised for track work.

My point is with a few simple, low cost practical mods the X-Bow is significantly quicker over a lap than Atom's, 2-11's, Caterhams, GT3's and pretty much anything else with number plates. I'm speaking from personal experience. Perhaps you'd care to join on track in the near future and report back on which one of us is delusional?

I'm not getting defensive and I agree completely with the remarks about the high cost, poor sales management etc... but lets get one thing clear, dynamically, with an appropriate setup, the car is awesome.

[BigBen]

ScottL said:

My point is with a few simple, low cost practical mods the X-Bow is significantly quicker over a lap than Atom's, 2-11's, Caterhams, GT3's and pretty much anything else with number plates. I'm speaking from personal experience. Perhaps you'd care to join on track in the near future and report back on which one of us is delusional?

Are you basing this on taking part in a race series or at least a time trial or overtaking some cars on trackdays ? The latter would not really be a valid comparison as the standard of driving varies quite a bit ot trackdays, I know most stuff overtakes me in my Atom !

[Noger]

So one of the previous KTM posters, with a 1.6 second gap to an average Caterham (with a very good driver) over 90 seconds at North Weald must be a crap driver. Less than two percent is hardly this "significant" difference we are hearing about

With so few x-bows about, an even fewer in any form of competition, it is difficult to guage the real performance.

Quick, certainly. But not that quick.

[darth_pies]

ScottL said:

If you read my post again you'll see I said representative lap times. I also said the standard factory setup isn't optimised for track work.

My point is with a few simple, low cost practical mods the X-Bow is significantly quicker over a lap than Atom's, 2-11's, Caterhams, GT3's and pretty much anything else with number plates. I'm speaking from personal experience. Perhaps you'd care to join on track in the near future and report back on which one of us is delusional?

I'm not getting defensive and I agree completely with the remarks about the high cost, poor sales management etc... but lets get one thing clear, dynamically, with an appropriate setup, the car is awesome.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're saying these 'low cost practical mods' take 5 seconds off the Top Gear/Evo lap times. That sounds highly unlikely.

Although the 'Bow clearly has good aerodynamics and a lot of suspension adjustability, it would need something like 400bhp+ to make up for its weight disadvantage. Is that a low cost mod?

What you seem to be saying is that if i spend £70k on a X-Bow, then another £10k on mods, i will get a car that might be as quick as a £40k 2-11, R500 or Atom. Fine. But for that amount of time, effort and cash i could also get one of those rivals with 300bhp+ and still be quicker.....oh, another car as well! It just doesn't add up i'm afraid.

Great looking car though and looks set to be extremely rare, so i'm glad you enjoy it!

[ScottL]

darth_pies said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're saying these 'low cost practical mods' take 5 seconds off the Top Gear/Evo lap times. That sounds highly unlikely.

Although the 'Bow clearly has good aerodynamics and a lot of suspension adjustability, it would need something like 400bhp+ to make up for its weight disadvantage. Is that a low cost mod?

What you seem to be saying is that if i spend £70k on a X-Bow, then another £10k on mods, i will get a car that might be as quick as a £40k 2-11, R500 or Atom. Fine. But for that amount of time, effort and cash i could also get one of those rivals with 300bhp+ and still be quicker.....oh, another car as well! It just doesn't add up i'm afraid.

Now we're getting closer to a real world scenario...and it does add up if you do the sums correctly!

I take your point about the effect on lap times of the mods I outlined. I would be somewhat skeptical if I was you. Best thing is for you and anyone else who's interested, to come and see for themselves. I appreciate a trackday isn't the place to definitively assess a cars performance but it'll give you a reasonably representative picture relative to other cars. If there is enough interest, I'm sure I can scare up a couple X-Bow's from KTM for test drives.

Some facts on the subject of power to weight ratio - a standard X-Bow is around 790kgs with 240bhp. Upgraded cars are between 340 and 360 bhp, although Backdraft have now introduced a 400bhp upgrade. The 360bhp kit is around £3k. R888's are £600 and an exhaust/sport cat is around £1,500. Lets say £6k fitted all in.

Add to that the price of the car itself. This is another area where KTM have done themselves no favours. Pistonheads classifies will give you a reasonable idea of the true cost of acquiring a X-Bow. Lets just say if I were shopping for a X-Bow in August 2009, I would be budgeting around £50k including the upgrade. Not the cheapest option but a lot less than some of the numbers mentioned earlier.

You can easily drop another 25kgs off the kerbweight if you desire but even without doing that you're looking at 450+bhp per ton for some of the upgraded cars. Please also bear in mind that this level of tune doesn't require any change elsewhere on the car (eg brakes, suspension, transmission, LSD etc.. are all more than able to handle the increased power/performance) or any meaningful impact on service intervals etc..in other words you're not ending up with something that spends more time being serviced than it does being driven.

The standard chassis can generate up to 300+kgs of downforce if you run it at the minimum ride height...and it's this combined with the rest of the package which yields the performance. Some Caterhams and Atoms have a higher power to weight ratio but none can match the aerodynamic efficiency of the X-Bow. The 2-11 is an interesting prospect in that it has a little bit of aero (around 25% of the X-Bow's values) but it's not easy to extract another 100bhp from it's engine.

So put it all together and what do you get. If you scratch just below the surface, the car that appears to be too heavy, too slow and too expensive is in fact ultimately the quickest, safest, highest quality, most reliable, most exclusive, best value of the lot.

[ScottL]

356Speedster said:

Noger said:

1:23.1 from the Stig. Same as the GT3.

Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.

Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion.

Just for comparison..... Top Gear Power Laps. Caterham R500 1:17.9. Stunning!!

The X-Bow hasn't done a powerlap yet. The feature in this month magazine is not the same. Read the article and it explains this fact.

With a track setup the X-Bow is capable of faster times than the R500.

Just to add a friend of mine bought an R500 at the same time as I bought my X-Bow. We've been out on track together several times. He's raced Caterhams and is typically a little quicker than I am in the same car on any given circuit. My X-Bow is a touch quicker over a lap than his R500.

Perhaps of more relevance his ownership experience has been terrible. Hence my comment "you get what you pay for".

[TrackdayBill]

mmmm ...... i have to admit, it sounds like you have a very good point there

[atom-ick]

three words sum up this car:

Too. Much. Money.

And yes, before anyone pipes up - i have driven one and no, i didn't think it was very good (I was on the very cusp of ordering one too...until i drove it)

For all the comments above about modifying the car to make it better - it is clear that you are just being defensive in order to justfy your car and defend it, which is completely normal. However, if what you are saying is true and you can do a couple of small modifcations to totally transform the car for almost no money, do you not think KTM might have offered them as options or fitted them as standard?

Maybe the car wouldn't have recieved such lacklustre reviews if this were the case. I find it staggering that a car costing this much, a car hailed as an extreme driver's car, needs any modifications out of the box to make it work - easpecially when list prices are already ludicrous.

I love KTM bikes, i like the look of the X-bow and as i said, i was all up for accepting their transformation into a car manufacturer, but lets face it - they didn't manage it.

Sorry, but when all is said and done, the X-bow just isn't good enough. And if you don't believe me, the evidence for this is all in the news article!

[356Speedster]

A demo day whether on track or out on the roads would be great. Actually, given most people drive their cars on the road more of the time, it probably makes sense to arrange something on the twisties of Wales or something... I know that's where I enjoy my car the most.

If something was arranged, I'm sure a good few PH'ers would be interested and I'd expect to be able to get a few of the Ariel OC members to come along too.

ScottL said:

So put it all together and what do you get. If you scratch just below the surface, the car that appears to be too heavy, too slow and too expensive is in fact ultimately the quickest, safest, highest quality, most reliable, most exclusive, best value of the lot.

I'm not sure about the above tho'... judged against std out of the box cars (as is the only valid comparison)
Quickest - Atom 3 300 / R500 / Radical
Safest - Probably the KTM, agree with that
Quality - On some of the KTMs I've seen I wasn't overly impressed with a few joints, so maybe a tie with the Ariel
Reliable - Don't know about KTM's outright quality, but the Atom's reliability is incredbile
Exclusive - At the moment, the KTM is a bit more exclusive, but Ariel only made their 500th Atom last year, where as KTM made that many in 12mth'ish. If they keep churning them out it won't be that exclusive!
Value - I'm sorry, but there's no way even 2nd hand KTM can claim that one!! Value is of course subjective, but it's a bit of a stretch to say a 50K 2nd hand KTM is better value than a 35K-40K 2-11 / Atom 3 / R500

Going into modified cars against all the above criteria would take us weeks to discuss

[Noger]

ScottL said:

With a track setup the X-Bow is capable of faster times than the R500.
".

But you have no proof, since there only appears to be one owner brave enough to actually COMPETE in one. Albeit in a race series his company appears to sponsor !

Until the various records at hillclimbs start tumbling to x-bows then we just have your word that it is faster.

And as others have pointed out, trackdays are not great places to compare performance.

R500 are hardly the zenith of sevenesque cars anyway. I don't think an x-bow, even with this magic "ooo you just turn this go-a-bit-faster knob hidden under here" tweak would blitz the time of the Branch Caterham Hayabusa, Cowper Dax or one of the many hill climb Westfields.

[ctallchris]

ScottL said:

darth_pies said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're saying these 'low cost practical mods' take 5 seconds off the Top Gear/Evo lap times. That sounds highly unlikely.

Although the 'Bow clearly has good aerodynamics and a lot of suspension adjustability, it would need something like 400bhp+ to make up for its weight disadvantage. Is that a low cost mod?

What you seem to be saying is that if i spend £70k on a X-Bow, then another £10k on mods, i will get a car that might be as quick as a £40k 2-11, R500 or Atom. Fine. But for that amount of time, effort and cash i could also get one of those rivals with 300bhp+ and still be quicker.....oh, another car as well! It just doesn't add up i'm afraid.

Now we're getting closer to a real world scenario...and it does add up if you do the sums correctly!

I take your point about the effect on lap times of the mods I outlined. I would be somewhat skeptical if I was you. Best thing is for you and anyone else who's interested, to come and see for themselves. I appreciate a trackday isn't the place to definitively assess a cars performance but it'll give you a reasonably representative picture relative to other cars. If there is enough interest, I'm sure I can scare up a couple X-Bow's from KTM for test drives.

Some facts on the subject of power to weight ratio - a standard X-Bow is around 790kgs with 240bhp. Upgraded cars are between 340 and 360 bhp, although Backdraft have now introduced a 400bhp upgrade. The 360bhp kit is around £3k. R888's are £600 and an exhaust/sport cat is around £1,500. Lets say £6k fitted all in.

Add to that the price of the car itself. This is another area where KTM have done themselves no favours. Pistonheads classifies will give you a reasonable idea of the true cost of acquiring a X-Bow. Lets just say if I were shopping for a X-Bow in August 2009, I would be budgeting around £50k including the upgrade. Not the cheapest option but a lot less than some of the numbers mentioned earlier.

You can easily drop another 25kgs off the kerbweight if you desire but even without doing that you're looking at 450+bhp per ton for some of the upgraded cars. Please also bear in mind that this level of tune doesn't require any change elsewhere on the car (eg brakes, suspension, transmission, LSD etc.. are all more than able to handle the increased power/performance) or any meaningful impact on service intervals etc..in other words you're not ending up with something that spends more time being serviced than it does being driven.

The standard chassis can generate up to 300+kgs of downforce if you run it at the minimum ride height...and it's this combined with the rest of the package which yields the performance. Some Caterhams and Atoms have a higher power to weight ratio but none can match the aerodynamic efficiency of the X-Bow. The 2-11 is an interesting prospect in that it has a little bit of aero (around 25% of the X-Bow's values) but it's not easy to extract another 100bhp from it's engine.

So put it all together and what do you get. If you scratch just below the surface, the car that appears to be too heavy, too slow and too expensive is in fact ultimately the quickest, safest, highest quality, most reliable, most exclusive, best value of the lot.

It is possible to upgrade any track car. The atom comes with an aero pack which will generate downforce if you want it side pannels which reduce drag. Improved tyres will help just about any track car move quicker. You can allways improve the performance but for track use there are quite a few downsides to this for example less availability of support / harder to get parts / quicker wear on components from engine mods and ost importantly the inability to compete in competitive single class racing.

You're talking about spending an extra £20,000 over the competitors with modifications. Yes it will be faster with them but seriously? would you not preffer to take the cheaper car with similar performance and say compete in a few years of series races with the cash you have left over?

How much additional performance could you get out some of those cars for a 20k investment

it may be true the x-bow may have a better top speed but is that the aim of the trackday car? I always though it was eyewatering acceleration and the ability to defy physics in the corners and plaster an immobile grin accross the drivers face. top speed is more the staple of heavier cars.

Having said all this i have never driven a ktm only an atom 300 and caterham 125. I have allway's considered the main attraction of a track car was the opposite of exclusivity but rather to have a large number of similar cars you can test your skills against and have fun.

[Ahonen]

ScottL said:

356Speedster said:

Noger said:

1:23.1 from the Stig. Same as the GT3.

Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.

Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion.

Just for comparison..... Top Gear Power Laps. Caterham R500 1:17.9. Stunning!!

The X-Bow hasn't done a powerlap yet. The feature in this month magazine is not the same. Read the article and it explains this fact.

With a track setup the X-Bow is capable of faster times than the R500.

Just to add a friend of mine bought an R500 at the same time as I bought my X-Bow. We've been out on track together several times. He's raced Caterhams and is typically a little quicker than I am in the same car on any given circuit. My X-Bow is a touch quicker over a lap than his R500.

Perhaps of more relevance his ownership experience has been terrible. Hence my comment "you get what you pay for".

Scott, a word to the wise. The fact that you own one and can produce many solid and interesting reasons for it being very fast indeed will have absolutely no impact at all on many people here who have never even seen a X-Bow in the flesh and couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dog's arse (and that's 95% of them) even though they'll happily blather on about the on-the-limit handling as if they know what they're talking about.

You will still be wrong.

Please remember that.

[Tony*T3]

good for long term values if they arent making many more I would think.

[ScottL]

ctallchris said:

You're talking about spending an extra £20,000 over the competitors with modifications. Yes it will be faster with them but seriously? would you not preffer to take the cheaper car with similar performance and say compete in a few years of series races with the cash you have left over?

How much additional performance could you get out some of those cars for a 20k investment

it may be true the x-bow may have a better top speed but is that the aim of the trackday car? I always though it was eyewatering acceleration and the ability to defy physics in the corners and plaster an immobile grin accross the drivers face. top speed is more the staple of heavier cars.

Having said all this i have never driven a ktm only an atom 300 and caterham 125. I have allway's considered the main attraction of a track car was the opposite of exclusivity but rather to have a large number of similar cars you can test your skills against and have fun.

What is realistic budget for an Atom 3 in a suitable spec for track work? Judging by the classifieds on here it's around £40K. A Caterham R500 is going to be around £45K. In fact one listed in Pistonheads classifieds recently was £48K.

I believe it's possible to buy a X-Bow with the turbo upgrade on a budget of £50K. So not a massive difference, especially when you consider the X-Bow has a carbon fibre monocoque as opposed to a much cheaper tubular frame chassis. Those of you who drive on track frequently will testify that £10k difference in purchase price is not a big factor in running a car for year.

The X-Bow isn't about top speed. Even the upgraded cars don't go much above 150. The searing acceleration, unbelievable braking and most of all the incredible downforce assisted cornering is what impresses most.

Would I rather have an Atom or Caterham. Course not. I love them both and the 2-11 as well. They are all fabulous in their own way. I've driven them all but for me the X-Bow was by far the best for what I wanted.

[ctallchris]

ScottL said:

ctallchris said:

Scroll up yer lazy sod

What is realistic budget for an Atom 3 in a suitable spec for track work? Judging by the classifieds on here it's around £40K. A Caterham R500 is going to be around £45K. In fact one listed in Pistonheads classifieds recently was £48K.

I believe it's possible to buy a X-Bow with the turbo upgrade on a budget of £50K. So not a massive difference, especially when you consider the X-Bow has a carbon fibre monocoque as opposed to a much cheaper tubular frame chassis. Those of you who drive on track frequently will testify that £10k difference in purchase price is not a big factor in running a car for year.

The X-Bow isn't about top speed. Even the upgraded cars don't go much above 150. The searing acceleration, unbelievable braking and most of all the incredible downforce assisted cornering is what impresses most.

Would I rather have an Atom or Caterham. Course not. I love them both and the 2-11 as well. They are all fabulous in their own way. I've driven them all but for me the X-Bow was by far the best for what I wanted.

brand new when I looked at one in early 2008 the atom 2's 300 were 37k from the factory with a 6 month list (kicking myself because it now looks like i could have made a calm 5k just by ordering one).

I'm probably not best placed to somment because my choice of track car (having tried a couple) has begun to tend towards the highly restrictive criteria of anything a 6'8" bloke with gigantic legs like something out of a dahli painting can fit into. I suppose tastes vary but for a quick car that is glued to the road would a radical not suffice?

[anonymous-user]

atom-ick said:

three words sum up this car:

Too. Much. Money.

Absolute nonsense. There's no evidence whatsoever that a car at the price is unsaleable. IMO the problem sits squarely in the area of what you GET for your money,

- no roof
- no windscreen
- no ground clearance
- nowhere to lock your helmet
- nowhere to keep the passenger helmet
- nowhere to put anything

In other words it's not a "car" so there's no point hoping that car buyers will turn up in any numbers to part with their cash. The market for this type of track vehicle is pitifully small. It's also "different" which tends to put off buyers who often like to play safe with a purchase which will be subject of much pub talk.

[ctallchris]

5 USA said:

atom-ick said:

three words sum up this car:

Too. Much. Money.

Absolute nonsense. There's no evidence whatsoever that a car at the price is unsaleable. IMO the problem sits squarely in the area of what you GET for your money,

- no roof
- no windscreen
- no ground clearance
- nowhere to lock your helmet
- nowhere to keep the passenger helmet
- nowhere to put anything

In other words it's not a "car" so there's no point hoping that car buyers will turn up in any numbers to part with their cash. The market for this type of track vehicle is pitifully small. It's also "different" which tends to put off buyers who often like to play safe with a purchase which will be subject of much pub talk.

People often pay more for no roof - ferrari 360 of 360 spider? personal preference but i like the open top. At the end of the day many people have designed a track car that is capable of driving to the track. Before you all disagree this would be with everything that people usually bring ie gurning over enthusiastic friend, 4 wheels, brake parts, a tool kit, 2 helmets, 2 lunchboxes. Don't get me wrong I don't think you should be tracking an audi A6 estate more like an ultra lightweight 2 wheel trailer which will attach behind your track car of choice.

It's silly to describe the things that are missing from a track car it's kind of the point because in the long run you pay much less in tyres and general wear than you would with something with such decadent luxuarys as a windscreen

[FTW]

When you sit in the x-bow and drive it you really feel the quality. When sat in a Caterham of an Atom you can see welds, bare metal and plastic trim. Compared to the X-bow you are in a beautify crafted carbon fiber tub that has to be seen and touched to be truly appreciated. Autocar said the quality was that of a top model Audi. Can argue with that really.

Even with out the 360 upgrade Scott the 'bow is fantastically quick once lowered and stiffened a little. It easily kept up with and overtook a FIA GT4 lambo around Oulton park on a test day.

Concerning the X-bow in British GT and the lack of racing cars about, I hear a race series is been put together for X-bows and Atoms which is going to start in 2010.

I absolutely love this thread it really highlights how many key-board-warriors they are out their sprouting utter from they computer chairs. Classic

[RTH]

It's so desirable they have 80 unsold new cars and have had to halt production( having only sold a total of 23 in the UK since they started ).

The plan build was 1000 per year that was scaled back to 200 due to lack of demand , currently they are making none - to be reviewed next year, at the earliest.

Edited by RTH on Tuesday 25th August 18:45

[Noger]

FTW said:

When you sit in the x-bow and drive it you really feel the quality. When sat in a Caterham of an Atom you can see welds, bare metal and plastic trim. Compared to the X-bow you are in a beautify crafted carbon fiber tub that has to be seen and touched to be truly appreciated. Autocar said the quality was that of a top model Audi. Can argue with that really.

Even with out the 360 upgrade Scott the 'bow is fantastically quick once lowered and stiffened a little. It easily kept up with and overtook a FIA GT4 lambo around Oulton park on a test day.

Concerning the X-bow in British GT and the lack of racing cars about, I hear a race series is been put together for X-bows and Atoms which is going to start in 2010.

I absolutely love this thread it really highlights how many key-board-warriors they are out their sprouting utter from they computer chairs. Classic

Do you have some sort of mental illness ? You don't make much sense.