RE: The Toyota GT86 is more relevant than ever: TMIW
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
grumbledoak said:
These threads are always full of stupid comparisons. I doubt anyone who ended up in a GT86 seriously considered a Fiesta.
But what about the other way round?As in someone who is seriously considering a Fiesta... but if the GT86 was a viable option and priced as an alternative.
I agree, someone wanting a GT86 is hugely unlikely to buy/consider a Fiesta ST.
However I think there is probably a significant number of people who would be initially wanting a Fiesta ST, but if given the opportunity would actually prefer or seriously consider a GT86 instead.
Interesting thing, I would consider a fiesta st as a fun, cheap hatch, but I would want to pay less than I would for an 86
Odd isn't it.
grumpynuts said:
Having done @50k miles in Gt 86's,I feel fairly well qualified to comment. I also own a 911. Nothing wrong with the basic car at all, BUT, the whole point of the car is that is it a blank canvas for the owner to tweak as he/she sees fit. This was always Toyota's intention with the car, to offer a basic car with some seriously clever engineering built in and focussed on driver enjoyment. If you want more power, grip, noise, you have Toyota's blessing to bolt it on, the platform is there to build your perfect car.
The original post/article has in nailed on perfectly, other modern performance cars are all about easy speed and lots of grip, and are largely good for those who either don't know how to, don't care to, or are too lazy to, drive a performance car properly. A rewarding performance vehicle should need to be "driven", this is where the skill comes in, and the reward for those who crave it. For those that do ,a GT 86 is their perfect car, for those who want a fast point and squirt car, the GT 86 fails in spectacular fashion. Horses for courses.
The reason the press went all moist over the 86 when it was launched was largely because the journo's are skilled performance car drivers and had to use their skills to master the car, and were rewarded when they did. it was clearly a revelation to them and they loved it. Average Joe, with average Joe driving skills doesn't get it and never will, as they don't know how to drive it. Happy to be flamed for this comment, but equally happy to stand by it.
The thrill in a GT 86 is what YOU do, not what the car does.
Which is also the case for the 911. Some just don't get that YOU have to drive the car, adjust the balance and attitude to kill understeer etc.The original post/article has in nailed on perfectly, other modern performance cars are all about easy speed and lots of grip, and are largely good for those who either don't know how to, don't care to, or are too lazy to, drive a performance car properly. A rewarding performance vehicle should need to be "driven", this is where the skill comes in, and the reward for those who crave it. For those that do ,a GT 86 is their perfect car, for those who want a fast point and squirt car, the GT 86 fails in spectacular fashion. Horses for courses.
The reason the press went all moist over the 86 when it was launched was largely because the journo's are skilled performance car drivers and had to use their skills to master the car, and were rewarded when they did. it was clearly a revelation to them and they loved it. Average Joe, with average Joe driving skills doesn't get it and never will, as they don't know how to drive it. Happy to be flamed for this comment, but equally happy to stand by it.
The thrill in a GT 86 is what YOU do, not what the car does.
Nice paring that I want to copy
culpz said:
daemon said:
Toyota AUS and Toyota JPN are able to price the GT86 at around the same price as an ST or an entry level MX5. Here Toyota UK have chosen not to.
So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
That's a very black and white way to look at it.So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
3 completely different economies there. I'd say that there's probably much more to it than that but, then again, it's all an assumption.
Gary C said:
Hum
Interesting thing, I would consider a fiesta st as a fun, cheap hatch, but I would want to pay less than I would for an 86
Odd isn't it.
So in actual fact, maybe Toyota UK have done every other manufacturer a favour by pricing it so high as otherwise Ford, Mazda, etc wouldnt sell any of their cars? Very decent of them all things considered.Interesting thing, I would consider a fiesta st as a fun, cheap hatch, but I would want to pay less than I would for an 86
Odd isn't it.
braddo said:
You are not considering that Ford and Mazda could be pricing their cars more expensively in those markets versus UK. A basic 1.5 MX5 seems start at $37k on the road in Oz which is more like £22-23k in the UK (adding on some more for higher VAT in UK) compared to actual £18k.
culpz said:
That's a very black and white way to look at it.
3 completely different economies there. I'd say that there's probably much more to it than that but, then again, it's all an assumption.
I have the same answer to both of these questions.3 completely different economies there. I'd say that there's probably much more to it than that but, then again, it's all an assumption.
I don't think you can compare absolute prices from one market to another, as GDP and many other factors will affect how cheap or expensive an item is in each market.
But you can compare how closely priced certain alternatives are within each market, to give an idea of 'choice'.
In countries outside the UK, the GT86 is priced to offer wider choice, with vehicles normally seen as being cheaper. In the UK it is priced more aggressively, with less options priced at the same level.
daemon said:
Gary C said:
Hum
Interesting thing, I would consider a fiesta st as a fun, cheap hatch, but I would want to pay less than I would for an 86
Odd isn't it.
So in actual fact, maybe Toyota UK have done every other manufacturer a favour by pricing it so high as otherwise Ford, Mazda, etc wouldnt sell any of their cars? Very decent of them all things considered.Interesting thing, I would consider a fiesta st as a fun, cheap hatch, but I would want to pay less than I would for an 86
Odd isn't it.
It was in reply to the previous poster that, yes someone who wants an 86 would also consider other cars like the st. I don't live in a rwd only n/a bubble
For me though an st would be a compromise car, a fun runabout, a second or third car (I currently run four) so I would accordingly pay less because I would desire it slightly less.
So I may want a secondhand 86 for £15k as my daily driver, but would also be happy with an 8k st to replace the runabout number two polo (polo's seem to breed at our house). They are great, fun to drive cars.
If I was buying new and the 86 was the same price as the st, I personally would choose the 86 because it gives me more of what I want. Would it draw some sales form the st ?, I bet it would.
End of day, do I like the 86, yes. Is it too expensive, yes I think Toyota have overpriced it. Does that make it a bad car? No.
Appologies if I'm not being clear, it's not as easy to get your point across in forums.
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 8th June 15:48
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 8th June 15:49
daemon said:
nickfrog said:
For clarity, Toyota Oxford have x2 GT86 pre-reg at £21k. OK they have 50 miles on the clock so not quite new but market forces clearly set the price, not the price list.
I think thats an excellent price for those two. They would be a good buy at that price. Lets hope it encourages more of the same.
grumbledoak said:
These threads are always full of stupid comparisons. I doubt anyone who ended up in a GT86 seriously considered a Fiesta. Equally the other way, numerous posters 'seriously considering' a GT86 but ending up with a diesel German saloon because, as they've just remembered, they've got three kids.
Exactly this. We knew we wanted one for my Wife, a Fiesta was not even a distance, foggy, option.
daemon said:
culpz said:
daemon said:
Toyota AUS and Toyota JPN are able to price the GT86 at around the same price as an ST or an entry level MX5. Here Toyota UK have chosen not to.
So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
That's a very black and white way to look at it.So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
3 completely different economies there. I'd say that there's probably much more to it than that but, then again, it's all an assumption.
If the UK isn't a strong market for the '86 and doesn't have the same fan-base as the other 2 markets above, then raising the price as standard is the only way to make up for the equivalent sales, knowing that they will not sell as many cars due to general lack of interest.
Again, that's just an assumption.
culpz said:
Maybe Toyota identifies that Australia and Japan have a bigger marketplace and higher demand for sports cars. I can definitely understand this with the latter, anyway. So, in that respect, they lower the basic price to make it look even more attractive and boost sales.
If the UK isn't a strong market for the '86 and doesn't have the same fan-base as the other 2 markets above, then raising the price as standard is the only way to make up for the equivalent sales, knowing that they will not sell as many cars due to general lack of interest.
Again, that's just an assumption.
I would have thought that the 86/BRZ would be a perfect car for British B roads and I can't help but think the Toybaru has missed a volume market by gouging for margin. Mazda sell 2.5 times the number of MX5s per capita in the U.K. than in Aus. Toybaru do the inverse (and some) with the 86/BRZ. I'd say pricing could be significantly driving this. If the UK isn't a strong market for the '86 and doesn't have the same fan-base as the other 2 markets above, then raising the price as standard is the only way to make up for the equivalent sales, knowing that they will not sell as many cars due to general lack of interest.
Again, that's just an assumption.
Sure, Brits (curiously) like a convertible (God knows why with the UK's weather), but in much of Australia the sun is too hot to use them for a significant portion of the year.
Edited by RBH58 on Thursday 8th June 23:04
Edited by RBH58 on Friday 9th June 00:59
RBH58 said:
Sure, Brits (curiously) like a convertible (God knows why with the UK's weather), but in much of Australia the sun is too hot to use them for a significant portion of the year.
The weather really isn't that bad here. It's not excessively hot or cold at any time, and it wet days are far less often than dry all things considered. I like getting out into the fresh air and being able to see and hear all that's going on around me. It adds massively to the enjoyment for me, especially if mainly road driving. It's more about the journey than the destination! For that reason, and considering the cost, I think the '86 would have to be a LOT better than the MX5 for me to consider buying it.
culpz said:
daemon said:
culpz said:
daemon said:
Toyota AUS and Toyota JPN are able to price the GT86 at around the same price as an ST or an entry level MX5. Here Toyota UK have chosen not to.
So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
That's a very black and white way to look at it.So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
3 completely different economies there. I'd say that there's probably much more to it than that but, then again, it's all an assumption.
If the UK isn't a strong market for the '86 and doesn't have the same fan-base as the other 2 markets above, then raising the price as standard is the only way to make up for the equivalent sales, knowing that they will not sell as many cars due to general lack of interest.
Again, that's just an assumption.
jsf said:
culpz said:
daemon said:
culpz said:
daemon said:
Toyota AUS and Toyota JPN are able to price the GT86 at around the same price as an ST or an entry level MX5. Here Toyota UK have chosen not to.
So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
That's a very black and white way to look at it.So are we being asked to pay £6K more just because Toyota UK think people here will pay more?
3 completely different economies there. I'd say that there's probably much more to it than that but, then again, it's all an assumption.
If the UK isn't a strong market for the '86 and doesn't have the same fan-base as the other 2 markets above, then raising the price as standard is the only way to make up for the equivalent sales, knowing that they will not sell as many cars due to general lack of interest.
Again, that's just an assumption.
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