RE: 2023 INEOS Grenadier | PH Review
Discussion
blearyeyedboy said:
This is interesting and will find a market in some areas. Ignoring the fact it's drifted far from its original brief and Brexit controversies, I think it's less interesting than the rise and rise of the commercial pickup.
Yes, it's very well built. Yes, it has loads of toys and plenty of toggle switches to keep ten-year old boys and 47-year old buyers amused. Yes, I wouldn't mind a play in a quarry for a giggle.
The thing that bugs me is that it's tried too hard.
For 99% of its original market brief, a vehicle that was Good Enough on roads and Good Enough off them would have sufficed. If could have been engineered with a bigger Good Enough load bay so buyers could benefit from tax breaks in commercial vehicles, and Good Enough drivetrains attached to lighter Good Enough lighter chassis components that meant emissions were Good Enough to avoid higher CO2-related taxes. It could have been kitted out with sound-deadening and trim levels which were Good Enough for a family of five to use as a possible daily driver.
Sir Jim viewed that as a modern vehicle inspired by the original Defender but I think I've just described a VW Amarok or any number of its rivals. For many buyers who- if they're honest with themselves- don't really care about marketing dressed up as patriotism when it'll cost them more to buy and own, the Grenadier won't feature as highly on a shopping list as a well-specced Ranger or Hilux with a crew cab. It doesn't do any worse in cities and very few farmers need the last word in off-road abilities in the real world.
The Grenadier is more like the G-Klasse than the original Defender. It's very well built and conceived to meet every demand except a low-enough price tag. It's rather like Harris Tweed; it's drifted far from its utilitarian roots to become a bespoke luxury item. Yes, it'll do the job and do it well but it's very unlikely it'll be the tool of choice for any but a minority- admittedly a well-heeled and discerning minority but a minority nonetheless.
There's a market for tweed, and I'm sure there's a market for this too. However, one of the reasons the original Defender did so well was that it hit the right spot on the Venn diagram of "Well made toys I enjoy playing with" and "Tools that I want to buy and keep for a long time".
This doesn't hit that spot. In my opinion, it doesn't hit that spot because it's true to be Very Good at too many things instead of Good Enough at the right price. Sir Jim should be applauded for getting it to market but it's hard not to feel disappointed about how it could have been so much more.
For me, that makes the Grenadier, well, Not Good Enough.
Good post.Yes, it's very well built. Yes, it has loads of toys and plenty of toggle switches to keep ten-year old boys and 47-year old buyers amused. Yes, I wouldn't mind a play in a quarry for a giggle.
The thing that bugs me is that it's tried too hard.
For 99% of its original market brief, a vehicle that was Good Enough on roads and Good Enough off them would have sufficed. If could have been engineered with a bigger Good Enough load bay so buyers could benefit from tax breaks in commercial vehicles, and Good Enough drivetrains attached to lighter Good Enough lighter chassis components that meant emissions were Good Enough to avoid higher CO2-related taxes. It could have been kitted out with sound-deadening and trim levels which were Good Enough for a family of five to use as a possible daily driver.
Sir Jim viewed that as a modern vehicle inspired by the original Defender but I think I've just described a VW Amarok or any number of its rivals. For many buyers who- if they're honest with themselves- don't really care about marketing dressed up as patriotism when it'll cost them more to buy and own, the Grenadier won't feature as highly on a shopping list as a well-specced Ranger or Hilux with a crew cab. It doesn't do any worse in cities and very few farmers need the last word in off-road abilities in the real world.
The Grenadier is more like the G-Klasse than the original Defender. It's very well built and conceived to meet every demand except a low-enough price tag. It's rather like Harris Tweed; it's drifted far from its utilitarian roots to become a bespoke luxury item. Yes, it'll do the job and do it well but it's very unlikely it'll be the tool of choice for any but a minority- admittedly a well-heeled and discerning minority but a minority nonetheless.
There's a market for tweed, and I'm sure there's a market for this too. However, one of the reasons the original Defender did so well was that it hit the right spot on the Venn diagram of "Well made toys I enjoy playing with" and "Tools that I want to buy and keep for a long time".
This doesn't hit that spot. In my opinion, it doesn't hit that spot because it's true to be Very Good at too many things instead of Good Enough at the right price. Sir Jim should be applauded for getting it to market but it's hard not to feel disappointed about how it could have been so much more.
For me, that makes the Grenadier, well, Not Good Enough.
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Friday 13th October 12:56
There were similar inescapable conclusions a few years back when the replacement of the Defender was discussed. Defender fans would often say "it should be a design led only by function and what commercial buyers want, like the original" or words to that effect. Or "like a Defender, but with all the flaws taken out and better-built."
Except that if you did that - sat down and drew up a blueprint for a modern light-duty 3.5-ton class commercial utility 4x4 based on the needs, preferences and use-cases of commercial operators in the 21st century - you'd end up with a Hilux, a Ranger or an Amarok. It wouldn't be a blocky off-roader with a massive chassis, live axles at both ends and a meaty diesel engine.
As it has arrived, the Grenadier seems at risk of being immensely capable in areas that don't really matter to the market it was supposedly pitched at while falling short in quite a few areas that matter quite a lot.
In the 2010s the old Defender was to modern utility 4x4s what the Morgan 4/4 was to modern sports cars. The Grenadier is a Morgan Plus 6. The new Defender is a Porsche Boxster. Neither are a Hilux/Mazda MX-5.
k down 
2xChevrons said:
As it has arrived, the Grenadier seems at risk of being immensely capable in areas that don't really matter to the market it was supposedly pitched at while falling short in quite a few areas that matter quite a lot
It’s almost as if all those off-road heroes who were never going to buy a new Defender haven’t bought a new Grenadier either.NomduJour said:
Some interesting new physics the presenter has discovered in his suspension talk… The “flex” is just about cross axle stiffness (and roll centres), there’s no magic force pushing unloaded live axle wheels into the ground - just means the live rear axle stuff compensates for comparatively less travel in the front by having less stiffness across the back.
I think this illustrates in a back to back test, how people think of offroading is doing that articulation test. But with a live axle it has a huge amount of positive camber on one wheel and negative on the other. So I need bigger tires, which reduces your weight on that contact patch. So you go larger to stop wheelspin. Having independent suspension is not a bad thing as not every bump is diagonally opposite and the wheel moves over the bump without reducing the contact patches on 3 other tires.
In theory the Grenadier should have been the better 4x4, but it wasn't and the idea that you drive up something, fail to go up. Stop, lock everything and it changes how the 4x4 steers. You crawl up getting thrown about like a Mr Bobblehead. Then stop again to drive is a bit old school.
As the competitors showed, you just drive and it sorts itself out without you having to stop is what makes this a bit of a dated machine.
But I suppose that is why it has a winch
blearyeyedboy said:
2xChevrons said:
In the 2010s the old Defender was to modern utility 4x4s what the Morgan 4/4 was to modern sports cars. The Grenadier is a Morgan Plus 6. The new Defender is a Porsche Boxster. Neither are a Hilux/Mazda MX-5.
Very good analogy, sir.There is a market for Morgans (and the modern ones are light years more capable than the old ones) but it is a small (and charming) niche.
AstonZagato said:
blearyeyedboy said:
2xChevrons said:
In the 2010s the old Defender was to modern utility 4x4s what the Morgan 4/4 was to modern sports cars. The Grenadier is a Morgan Plus 6. The new Defender is a Porsche Boxster. Neither are a Hilux/Mazda MX-5.
Very good analogy, sir.braddo said:
AstonZagato said:
blearyeyedboy said:
2xChevrons said:
In the 2010s the old Defender was to modern utility 4x4s what the Morgan 4/4 was to modern sports cars. The Grenadier is a Morgan Plus 6. The new Defender is a Porsche Boxster. Neither are a Hilux/Mazda MX-5.
Very good analogy, sir.blearyeyedboy said:
This is It's rather like Harris Tweed; it's drifted far from its utilitarian roots to become a bespoke luxury item.
And is nowhere near as good as modern equivalents...It's occurred to me that JR has built the antithesis of what he intended. The Grenadier is a 4x4 for hipsters, the sort of person who cycle to a pub in Hackney on a penny farthing.
Bill said:
And is nowhere near as good as modern equivalents...
It's occurred to me that JR has built the antithesis of what he intended. The Grenadier is a 4x4 for hipsters, the sort of person who cycle to a pub in Hackney on a penny farthing.
Have you driven one? I love mine, but I'd suggest it is a bit hair-shirt for hipsters. Hipsters buy Defenders, easier to live with day to day while in warranty. It's occurred to me that JR has built the antithesis of what he intended. The Grenadier is a 4x4 for hipsters, the sort of person who cycle to a pub in Hackney on a penny farthing.
The biggest barrier for me to buy a Defender was my local dealer, they lent me their 90 demonstrator which was blinged up to the nines and well over £80k OTR. When I asked about a lower spec 3 seater van, the sales staff were very anti and the quoted delivery date was 24 months+. Friends experiences with the same dealer were not positive, including one refusal to do warranty work until handed court papers. My Grenadier OTR was £60k, it's now done 9200 miles and I don't want a Defender.
jeremy996 said:
Have you driven one? I love mine, but I'd suggest it is a bit hair-shirt for hipsters. Hipsters buy Defenders, easier to live with day to day while in warranty.
I've barely seen one, despite living in rural Dorset. Glad you like yours. 
I don't think a hipster would drive any 4x4 to be fair ( And a Defender is far too common and "smug married"). It was more the way it uses old tech to do things less well while costing more.
Bill said:
jeremy996 said:
Have you driven one? I love mine, but I'd suggest it is a bit hair-shirt for hipsters. Hipsters buy Defenders, easier to live with day to day while in warranty.
I've barely seen one, despite living in rural Dorset. Glad you like yours. I don't think a hipster would drive any 4x4 to be fair ( And a Defender is far too common and "smug married"). It was more the way it uses old tech to do things less well while costing more.
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