Why such tall first gears?

[donaircooleone]

eliotrw said:

Its annoying as hell in town though, Especially with a lightened flywheel and the worlds stiffest clutch(TM)

Grease the clutch cable (or replace) may help a bit - but it is mans clutch after all!

[mwstewart]

First gear is to get the thing rolling, I never use it to do anything else.

[V8LM]

Speedy11 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

It's very simple, in many cars acceleration is tailing off by the time you get to the red-line and you'll accelerate more quickly in the next gear. There's a difference between marking your rev counter with red-line to protect the engine and marking it with a change point for maximum acceleration.

As always, just because you're making a lot of noise doesn't guarantee you're going fast.

For most cars this simply isn't true.

Look at this pic as an example



Torque at the wheels at the redline in 1st is much greater than 2nd @ ~ 6000 rpm

I love it when people show these graphs: Simple demonstration that maximum performance in any gear is at max power; maximum acceleration in a single gear is at max torque.

One of the many things I love about the Aston Martin V600 package is that they reduced the gearing of the diff' so that 60 mph is reached in first gear, thereby reducing the 0 - 60 times. With the longer diff, 6th is even more useless so that is blanked off on the selector. Top speed in the standard 590 car is achieved in 5th, even though it has 6 gears. And finally, the V600 package could not get through European (German) drive-by noise tests so many of the V600-engined Le Mans still have 6 speeds and the shorter differential.




As you were...







ETA: It's also worth noting that in many modern cars (in particular the 'nice' ones) the ECU restricts performance of the engine when in first.

[fourwheelsteer]

V8LM said:

Speedy11 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

It's very simple, in many cars acceleration is tailing off by the time you get to the red-line and you'll accelerate more quickly in the next gear. There's a difference between marking your rev counter with red-line to protect the engine and marking it with a change point for maximum acceleration.

As always, just because you're making a lot of noise doesn't guarantee you're going fast.

For most cars this simply isn't true.

Look at this pic as an example



Torque at the wheels at the redline in 1st is much greater than 2nd @ ~ 6000 rpm

I love it when people show these graphs: Simple demonstration that maximum performance in any gear is at max power; maximum acceleration in a single gear is at max torque.

Agreed, I wish those graphs were more widely available. I think they tell you far more about available performance than power and torque curves and would probably end many pub arguments.

micky g said:

I remember as a kid reading the old 'Top Trump' cards, one of them giving the performance of a Monterverdi Hai that went through 60 in 1st and 100 in 2nd, thinking I'd love a car that could do that!

It might not have been a Top Trumps fact but I seem to recall that the Iso Grifo 7 litre could hit 80mph or maybe a little more in the first of its four gears.

[neil1jnr]

AgentZ said:

neil1jnr said:

Sorry mate but I completely disagree. The old Fiesta ST yes, the new one... not a hope.

I can't see a 306 gti saying 'bye bye' to a corsa vxr either. Regardless of ratios, the 306 is heavier, and has less power and torque at any part of the rev range than a Fiesta ST. It is slightly lighter than the VXR but I'd put money on the Corsa being quicker.

I know when I owned mine during the commute I got lazy/took advantage of the torque leaving it in fourth 90% of the time. I'm guessing most owners do the same.

30-70 in fourth in the ST is slightly slower (8.2) than the GTi-6 is going through the gears full bore (7.4). The ST is seconds quicker in most in-gear increments when driven to its potential.

That may be the OLD Fiesta ST.

Quoted from Mountune website, the Fiesta ST does:

31mph - 62mph in 4th gear in 6.4 sec.

31mph - 62mph in 4th gear in 5.7 sec (Mountune MP215 kit)

There is just no way a 306 GTI-6 can out drag a Fiesta ST in 4th gear, the Fiesta is a full second quicker.

I have the Fiesta ST with the MP215 kit and for a little car the in gear torque and acceleration is laughable.

Peak torque of 236lbs ft (Mountune quoted) at 2500rpm weighs 1160KG. The Fiesta is in a different league mate, sorry. The Fiesta is quicker in gear than the 170 tdi brigade too.

But wait, the 306 GTI-6 does 30-50mph in 6.5sec in 4th according to autocar;

http://www.306gti6.com/downloads/reviews/autocar/

So the Fiesta is 1.1 seconds quicker to 62mph from 30 in 4th than the gti-6 is going 30-50mph. Where exactly did you get your figures?!

Edited by neil1jnr on Tuesday 12th August 14:36

[AgentZ]

neil1jnr said:

That may be the OLD Fiesta ST.

Quoted from Mountune website, the Fiesta ST does:

31mph - 62mph in 4th gear in 6.4 sec.

31mph - 62mph in 4th gear in 5.7 sec (Mountune MP215 kit)

There is just no way a 306 GTI-6 can out drag a Fiesta ST in 4th gear, the Fiesta is a full second quicker.

I have the Fiesta ST with the MP215 kit and for a little car the in gear torque and acceleration is laughable.

Peak torque of 236lbs ft (Mountune quoted) at 2500rpm weighs 1160KG. The Fiesta is in a different league mate, sorry. The Fiesta is quicker in gear than the 170 tdi brigade too.

But wait, the 306 GTI-6 does 30-50mph in 6.5sec in 4th according to autocar;

http://www.306gti6.com/downloads/reviews/autocar/

So the Fiesta is 1.1 seconds quicker to 62mph from 30 in 4th than the gti-6 is going 30-50mph. Where exactly did you get your figures?!

Edited by neil1jnr on Tuesday 12th August 14:36

You're miss reading my post Neil. I'm agreeing with you whilst attempting to explain why eliotrw in his experience has "beaten", on paper, faster cars.

I got the 306 figures from the same link you gave and the ST figures from Autocar's ST road test.

All I'm saying is if a 306-GTi-6 is thrashed through the gears whilst a ST is left in fourth (between 30-70 say), the ST will be slightly slower according to Autocar's figures for both.

HTH.

[neil1jnr]

AgentZ said:

neil1jnr said:

That may be the OLD Fiesta ST.

Quoted from Mountune website, the Fiesta ST does:

31mph - 62mph in 4th gear in 6.4 sec.

31mph - 62mph in 4th gear in 5.7 sec (Mountune MP215 kit)

There is just no way a 306 GTI-6 can out drag a Fiesta ST in 4th gear, the Fiesta is a full second quicker.

I have the Fiesta ST with the MP215 kit and for a little car the in gear torque and acceleration is laughable.

Peak torque of 236lbs ft (Mountune quoted) at 2500rpm weighs 1160KG. The Fiesta is in a different league mate, sorry. The Fiesta is quicker in gear than the 170 tdi brigade too.

But wait, the 306 GTI-6 does 30-50mph in 6.5sec in 4th according to autocar;

http://www.306gti6.com/downloads/reviews/autocar/

So the Fiesta is 1.1 seconds quicker to 62mph from 30 in 4th than the gti-6 is going 30-50mph. Where exactly did you get your figures?!

Edited by neil1jnr on Tuesday 12th August 14:36

You're miss reading my post Neil. I'm agreeing with you whilst attempting to explain why eliotrw in his experience has "beaten", on paper, faster cars.

I got the 306 figures from the same link you gave and the ST figures from Autocar's ST road test.

All I'm saying is if a 306-GTi-6 is thrashed through the gears whilst a ST is left in fourth (between 30-70 say), the ST will be slightly slower according to Autocar's figures for both.

HTH.

But what you said doesn't explain it and the figures are wrong, the 306 doesn't beat it. There are probably a lot of slower cars that would beat fasters cars if they are going flat out through the gears and the faster car started in 4th. It means nothing!

With that methodology, my Fiesta can say 'bye bye' to an Evo IX FQ360. How you ask? Because, from 30-60mph if the Evo is in fourth and I am going flat out through the gears I'll be quicker to 60.

That DOES NOT mean my car is quicker than the Evo though does it.