RE: £50k Integra Type R!
Discussion
Alpinestars said:
Nothing rose tinted about it. I’ve owned all those cars, and the 2 is the most engaging. You may have a different view. It’s pretty easy to get the rear of a 2 to play. It’s not unique to the 26R.
What’s your experience of the cars in the review and specifically about the 2 and 26R?
Around 3000 road miles and 5 is track days at Mons in each of the cars i mentioned.What’s your experience of the cars in the review and specifically about the 2 and 26R?
As above its subjective, as we're talking in the margins about non-measurable characteristics but interesting that on a revisit of the teg EVO which i counted as pretty well respected at the time concluded similarly to me, teg is very good (if you can get into one that isn't tired) but its been surpassed, as a drivers car.
Car-Matt said:
Around 3000 road miles and 5 is track days at Mons in each of the cars i mentioned.
As above its subjective, as we're talking in the margins about non-measurable characteristics but interesting that on a revisit of the teg EVO which i counted as pretty well respected at the time concluded similarly to me, teg is very good (if you can get into one that isn't tired) but its been surpassed, as a drivers car.
What you’ve shown is the subjective nature of which is the “best car”. Evo et al rate many cars - they are there to make money from their buyers and advertisers. It doesn’t make their view any more valid than yours or mine. The R is dull in comparison to the 2. That’s my view. You obviously disagree. Which is fine. As above its subjective, as we're talking in the margins about non-measurable characteristics but interesting that on a revisit of the teg EVO which i counted as pretty well respected at the time concluded similarly to me, teg is very good (if you can get into one that isn't tired) but its been surpassed, as a drivers car.
Alpinestars said:
What you’ve shown is the subjective nature of which is the “best car”. Evo et al rate many cars - they are there to make money from their buyers and advertisers. It doesn’t make their view any more valid than yours or mine. The R is dull in comparison to the 2. That’s my view. You obviously disagree. Which is fine.
If you think EVO boosting the sales of the R26R is going to boost the EBITDA of Renault i'd stick to the day job probably.Knowing a couple of contributors to EVO i'd be inclined to believe a fair degree of impartiality.
Like you say, different opinions make the world go round, but for out and out fun i'd say the Mini GP (the first one) is better than both on the road, doesn't have the nuances of either of the other two but its a proper hoot.
Petrolism said:
havoc said:
UK brakes were 282mm same as JDM 98 - it's the JDM 96 that ran smaller front discs on 4-stud hubs.
Only real JDM 98 vs UKDM differences were the 16" wheels, the exhaust manifold and the headlights. Some people make more of the 98 than it deserves...
That’s a bit misleading. OK - 98 UK cars also got the larger front & rear discs as the JDM but earlier 4 stud wheeled cars had smaller discs, as the 96 JDM models.Only real JDM 98 vs UKDM differences were the 16" wheels, the exhaust manifold and the headlights. Some people make more of the 98 than it deserves...
It’s not just headlights at the front that we’re different on the JDM car. Bonnet, wings, grille, HID projector headlights, bumper & support, lip spoiler and tail lights... these differences are worth several thousand dollars when offered as used parts in the U.S.
The largest and most glaringly obvious difference today though - is most JDM examples that haven’t lived in the UK’s winter weather don’t suffer from corrosion. U.K. cars have known rust issues on rear arches, underside, etc. This means there will be far fewer good ones left in the U.K. as viable collector’s pieces.
Most of the differences you mention are cosmetic, so are arguably value-less. Not sure why you're talking about them...
And as for rust...most JDM cars in this country came over YEARS ago, so are likely to be just/almost as rusty as UK cars now, given the average age is closing on 20 years and the JDM cars weren't undersealed from new. You need to check the rear arches, bonnet slam panel and underside for rust on ANY DC2 you look at.
Anything newly imported probably WILL be OK in that regard, but you're taking on a risk as you've no idea of the history - just ask Torque GT or any of the other importers how much dross they're seeing over there going through the auctions.
My view is that JDM-98 is marginally superior to a UKDM car, but it's very slight (I also forgot the suspension mild re-tune to deal with the 16"s) and I'd venture condition and personal preference on looks are far more important. Next comes the JDM-96, although changing the hubs on that gives you most of the opportunity of a UKDM. And then comes the USDM, which as noted didn't come with some of the best goodies...
Alpinestars said:
WCZ said:
I personally pref'd the dc5 over the dc2 and the ek9 the most
DC5 is good, but nowhere near as focussed as a 2. I suppose it depends on what you value in a car. I will re-visit Bovingdon's evo issue 200 test, as it may not have been the fittest example integra from memory. R26R is undoubtedly great, but forced induction units are incomparable to the integra's when based upon the emotion of sound. A healthy dc2's high revving normally aspirated unit should scream on cam, and go like a banshee. The control weights, drivetrain, exceptional gear change and direct throttle cable response of the dc2 are a refreshing change from every other modern era drive by wire turbocharged hatch. I think a revisit of the evo 200 test would configure a different outcome, as the integra bucking the trend by being normally aspirated will feel even more delicately interactive and special a decade on. Chris Harris never fully appreciated the high revving type r ethos in the past, yet eulogised about an EP3 only very recently. I personally run a turbo for kicks daily, but keep the dc2 alongside for early morning Sunday blasts.
Car-Matt said:
If you think EVO boosting the sales of the R26R is going to boost the EBITDA of Renault i'd stick to the day job probably.
Knowing a couple of contributors to EVO i'd be inclined to believe a fair degree of impartiality.
Like you say, different opinions make the world go round, but for out and out fun i'd say the Mini GP (the first one) is better than both on the road, doesn't have the nuances of either of the other two but its a proper hoot.
I agree that the GP1 is a hoot - very under rated. The GP2 seems to get more accolades, but is awful in comparison, mainly down to the different (e)LSD and its EPAS. And it doesn’t have that addictive whine. Knowing a couple of contributors to EVO i'd be inclined to believe a fair degree of impartiality.
Like you say, different opinions make the world go round, but for out and out fun i'd say the Mini GP (the first one) is better than both on the road, doesn't have the nuances of either of the other two but its a proper hoot.
Petrolism said:
U.S. model Type R DC2's were inferior to the JDM model in several ways.
Less power, no Recaro SR seats (Most Americans wouldn't fit!), Titanium shift knob (weighted for balance), No Momo steering wheel, less attractive exterior styling, smaller brakes, non-forged wheels - and some U.S. models were equipped with an electric sunroof, something the Japanese never introduced as it was considered undesirable to add weight.
Actually the USDM has larger brakes than the JDM car had in 97 when this car was produced. Only from 98 onwards did the JDM car get the 282mm front brakes that the rest of the world already had. And the USDM model was never available with an electric sunroof, although a few dealerships did fit manual sunroofs as a dealer fit mod. The engine is identical apart from very slightly lower compression and a different manifold/exhaust. The biggest difference was the fact the USDM had a taller final drive ratio, like the early 96-97 JDM cars where the UK car had the later JDM 98+ box with shorter final drive. Very little difference between the performance and driving dynamics between any of the models....more just aesthetics Less power, no Recaro SR seats (Most Americans wouldn't fit!), Titanium shift knob (weighted for balance), No Momo steering wheel, less attractive exterior styling, smaller brakes, non-forged wheels - and some U.S. models were equipped with an electric sunroof, something the Japanese never introduced as it was considered undesirable to add weight.
Petrolism said:
JDM 98 spec ran 205/50R16’s with larger brakes than U.K. cars (IIRC?). The design of Honda suspension on B series engined Civic and Integra Type R’s - helped provide the handling greatness that made these cars special. Subsequent replacements had McPherson struts at the front and weren’t as sweet handling as a result.
215/45-16. Same size brakes as UKDerek Chevalier said:
FerdiZ28 said:
but I always preferred the Xsara VTS for that size car
Never drove one (I had the 306 Rallye), but I understood they were for real men that could handle good old fashioned French hot hatchback snap oversteer!
That chassis certainly needed a little respect...Wife had a 306 GTi-6 for a bit (ran concurrently with start of my 2nd 'teg)...and it very nearly caught me out on a large-ish roundabout I know well...downhill entry, exit at 2 o'clock
The 'teg, if you got bored of the diff pulling you round like a cartoon arm-on-a-lamppost, could be chucked in hard, followed by a proper throttle-lift to get the back-end yawing the nose around. You typically needed about 90-120 degrees of opp-lock to pick it up as you reapplied the throttle - very easy, very transparent, feel-like-a-hero time when really the car did most of it.
The 306, I rapidly discovered, responded even more eagerly to such treatment, the slower steering requiring a rather panicked two-armfuls of oppo, all the while scrubbing off speed and probably being laughed at by anyone within sight.
Derek Chevalier said:
leonintegra36 said:
£50k doesn't surprise me in relation to what the integra cost new and the fact Honda made a loss on every Type R Dc2 sold. Honda will never produce a car like it again; hand ported and polished from the factory, assembly was limited to twenty five units a day. The integra has great handling, damping, and involvement, coupled with a clarity of purpose that connects all the greatest drivers' cars. It is a special car at any price point, with a gearbox that is rifle bolt precise and unsurpassed. Its paired back ethos, thinned glass, removal of sound deadening, lightweight conrods are all reminiscent of the finest Porsche Rs models. It has an obligatory helical Limited Slip Differential, strengthened chassis, lightweight exhaust, double wishbone suspension and 104bhp per litre, one of the highest specific outputs of any normally aspirated engine. The Recaros were as good as any performance car available and the momo steering wheel was shared with Ferrari's 550. EVO classed the integra as the greatest front driven car, and one of the finest handling cars period. Look at some Japanese Best Motoring videos of the integra and see how it's lightness and balance makes it quicker than many cars with twice the power at Tsukuba circuit. It lapped quicker than a 22B impreza.
Why do you feel the current Civic is inferior (given the constraints of 21st century regulations)? Different, not necessarily inferior. May be worth taking a look at the latest EVO - track car of the year. https://magazine.evo.co.uk/2018/09/30/track-car-of...
leonintegra36 said:
104bhp per litre, one of the highest specific outputs of any normally aspirated engine.
Should probably read "Highest specific outputs of any normally aspirated CAR engine", given that it's not particularly high for "any" n/a engine.A specific output of 104bhp in bike terms would be somewhat disappointing. The ZXR400, for instance, had a specific output of 177 over twenty years ago. Most modern sportsbikes are now well over 200 straight from the dealership.
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