RE: 2023 INEOS Grenadier | PH Review
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I think the 5,000/annum was just U.K. sales projections with greater numbers sold in North America and Rest of World.
Re turning a profit, I imagine the car business has been structured so as to enable the writing off of much of the capex against Group tax liabilities?
Indeed, according to google Ineos group profit in 22 was 2.5b against 3.5 the previous year. I don’t imagine he’s too unhappy at reducing his tax liabilities. Re turning a profit, I imagine the car business has been structured so as to enable the writing off of much of the capex against Group tax liabilities?
DonkeyApple said:
I think the 5,000/annum was just U.K. sales projections with greater numbers sold in North America and Rest of World.
Re turning a profit, I imagine the car business has been structured so as to enable the writing off of much of the capex against Group tax liabilities?
I remember a UK figure of 5000, too.Re turning a profit, I imagine the car business has been structured so as to enable the writing off of much of the capex against Group tax liabilities?
From 2019, but... " INEOS hopes to sell 25,000 to 30,000 units a year, with production planned to begin in 2021."
https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/british-startup...
UK registrations to date are 800.
Edited by silentbrown on Sunday 19th November 13:34
Maybe they’re all owned by real men deep in the wilderness, who don’t need to register them for extreme off-road use? After all, there were loads and loads of people who were going to buy one instead of a limp-wristed Defender. Check the car parks at the log chopping and bear wrestling fairs?
Had the pleasure of putting this through its paces today…
What a machine! Some truly demanding trails, wading and sheer rock inclimbs and declines, I ground out a guard only once and the only electronic intervention was a small intervention of automatic hill descent.
Off road, in the wilds of the Lake District this thing was unstoppable. We’ve had rain solid for weeks and these trails were running wet.
On road, the self centring on the steering really didn’t catch you out after a couple of miles and anything above 20mph. I can’t help thinking that all the comments in the reviews are simply a stick to beat it with-if you can’t get used to it within ten minutes you shouldn’t be on the roads.
It does have a high ratio of turns, I feel a three spoke wheel would be better to keep track of it but I imagine again, within a few days you wouldn’t think about it too much.
I arrived in air suspended comfort in my defender, it quieter, more refined and more comfortable but a better 4x4-I seriously doubt it.
I took my father and a couple of mates, they’re all in their 70s and two are serial old defender owners. We all absolutely loved it.
One who had knee problems did find the footrest made it necessary to push the seat back further than he’d have preferred but the car and footrest fitted three out of four of us perfectly-one of whom is a 70 year old well over six footer!
Price wise, it’s getting expensive in the ‘24 model year-on par with a new defender (ie over £70k including vat). One of my mates still has a pre price rise slot at £50k-ish but he’s the one with the dodgy knee.
My new defender is without a doubt a better road car, family car and more suited to my usual use-I don’t build houses down rock strewn forestry tracks up fells!-but the want for a Grenadier is still so strong-more so after spending a morning in one.
If I could run one as a commercial vehicle I’d have it in an instant.
What a machine! Some truly demanding trails, wading and sheer rock inclimbs and declines, I ground out a guard only once and the only electronic intervention was a small intervention of automatic hill descent.
Off road, in the wilds of the Lake District this thing was unstoppable. We’ve had rain solid for weeks and these trails were running wet.
On road, the self centring on the steering really didn’t catch you out after a couple of miles and anything above 20mph. I can’t help thinking that all the comments in the reviews are simply a stick to beat it with-if you can’t get used to it within ten minutes you shouldn’t be on the roads.
It does have a high ratio of turns, I feel a three spoke wheel would be better to keep track of it but I imagine again, within a few days you wouldn’t think about it too much.
I arrived in air suspended comfort in my defender, it quieter, more refined and more comfortable but a better 4x4-I seriously doubt it.
I took my father and a couple of mates, they’re all in their 70s and two are serial old defender owners. We all absolutely loved it.
One who had knee problems did find the footrest made it necessary to push the seat back further than he’d have preferred but the car and footrest fitted three out of four of us perfectly-one of whom is a 70 year old well over six footer!
Price wise, it’s getting expensive in the ‘24 model year-on par with a new defender (ie over £70k including vat). One of my mates still has a pre price rise slot at £50k-ish but he’s the one with the dodgy knee.
My new defender is without a doubt a better road car, family car and more suited to my usual use-I don’t build houses down rock strewn forestry tracks up fells!-but the want for a Grenadier is still so strong-more so after spending a morning in one.
If I could run one as a commercial vehicle I’d have it in an instant.
I think they both have their pros and cons
Defender is lighter and has much better traction control
IG has better articulation, lower gearing and “proper” diff locks
There is also the question of longevity and reliability.
I’ve had lots of LR products but I didn’t even consider a new Defender.
Defender is lighter and has much better traction control
IG has better articulation, lower gearing and “proper” diff locks
There is also the question of longevity and reliability.
I’ve had lots of LR products but I didn’t even consider a new Defender.
It's funny, I didn't even consider the new Defender until I realised the balls up Ineos made with the HMRC commercial aspect of the Grenadier. Suddenly I was without an option and the lads at Land Rover dug me out of a hole.
Whether or not financially I'd have just have been better off buying a Grenadier personally and charging the company I don't know, unlikely but it depends on the real cost of the Defender over a few years.
As good as the Defender is, it's a generation of car ahead of the Grenadier, bings, bongs, driving modes that need to be selected, an auto box that hunts up and down for gears, stop start by MHEV-it goes on.
The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO). Less efficient but MPG isn't the most important aspect of my commercial vehicle.
Both the new Defender and Grenadier are better overall vehicles than my VW Amarok (and by dint any commercial pick up IMHO) that they would/have replaced. I'd be utterly happy with either but I think I might have been a little bit happier with a Grenadier.
When Grenadier start delivering the two seat commercial-if that works with HMRC and you can fit temporary rear seats like you can the Defender Hardtop to get around HMRC I'll probably look at the cost to change. Only thing so far I'd truly miss is the 3rd jump seat in the Defender-the kids love sitting up front!
Whether or not financially I'd have just have been better off buying a Grenadier personally and charging the company I don't know, unlikely but it depends on the real cost of the Defender over a few years.
As good as the Defender is, it's a generation of car ahead of the Grenadier, bings, bongs, driving modes that need to be selected, an auto box that hunts up and down for gears, stop start by MHEV-it goes on.
The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO). Less efficient but MPG isn't the most important aspect of my commercial vehicle.
Both the new Defender and Grenadier are better overall vehicles than my VW Amarok (and by dint any commercial pick up IMHO) that they would/have replaced. I'd be utterly happy with either but I think I might have been a little bit happier with a Grenadier.
When Grenadier start delivering the two seat commercial-if that works with HMRC and you can fit temporary rear seats like you can the Defender Hardtop to get around HMRC I'll probably look at the cost to change. Only thing so far I'd truly miss is the 3rd jump seat in the Defender-the kids love sitting up front!
Pflanzgarten said:
As good as the Defender is, it's a generation of car ahead of the Grenadier, bings, bongs, driving modes that need to be selected, an auto box that hunts up and down for gears, stop start by MHEV-it goes on.
The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO).
Both the Defender and the Grenadier (and depending on the model, the Amarok too) use the same ZF 8HP76 autobox.The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO).
silentbrown said:
silentbrown said:
UK registrations to date are 800.
D'oh. I'd forgotten that some get registered as LCV's. That's another 680 in the UK, so 1480 to date.Given that the most optioned accessory is a Picnic table the Grenadier is falling into the Garden Centre carpark segment quite happily. It is not a work vehicle or fleet buyers. Its has not stepped into the EV or hybid 4x4 market like Rivian and unlike a legacy vehicle where you are warming over left overs to save money. This is all new as though its 1998.
The double cab pick up version is supposed to answer the call for practicality, a road legal UTV side by side like a Polaris is what people use as they sell thousands of these.
Anyway, I find this fascinating as like TVR this is a very retrospective type of car relaunched with huge expense and patriotism. Whilst TVR have a building site in Wales, INEOs could have just built these as a Morgan 4x4 offshoot in small enough numbers to justify the cost or idiosyncrasies that people are trying to ignore.
legless said:
Pflanzgarten said:
As good as the Defender is, it's a generation of car ahead of the Grenadier, bings, bongs, driving modes that need to be selected, an auto box that hunts up and down for gears, stop start by MHEV-it goes on.
The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO).
Both the Defender and the Grenadier (and depending on the model, the Amarok too) use the same ZF 8HP76 autobox.The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO).
Pflanzgarten said:
legless said:
Pflanzgarten said:
As good as the Defender is, it's a generation of car ahead of the Grenadier, bings, bongs, driving modes that need to be selected, an auto box that hunts up and down for gears, stop start by MHEV-it goes on.
The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO).
Both the Defender and the Grenadier (and depending on the model, the Amarok too) use the same ZF 8HP76 autobox.The Grenadier is re soundly old school and feels it, sounds it, with a drive train that just works (that ZF outbox is still the best out there IMHO).
Lefty said:
TVR is an interesting comparison.
If somebody bought the name and started building sports cars in Europe with European engines and gearboxes but still on the same ethos of light, simple, powerful and noisy would it attract the same vitriol that the Grenadier does?
It would all depend who the 'somebody' was.If somebody bought the name and started building sports cars in Europe with European engines and gearboxes but still on the same ethos of light, simple, powerful and noisy would it attract the same vitriol that the Grenadier does?
It's really valuable to hear a first hand account of these in a proper offroad environment, unfettered by the influences of bias and prejudice in many of the commercially produced reviews.
It sounds like a great machine, despite some of it's shortcomings it's one of the few modern vehicles that interest me.
It sounds like a great machine, despite some of it's shortcomings it's one of the few modern vehicles that interest me.
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