RE: Noble M600 - First Delivery Imminent
Discussion
Daisy Duke said:
kambites said:
Obviously Noble's aim is to make money. However if I was in the market for such a car, my aim would be by buy the best car possible, not the most profitable one.
Exactly. It does amuse me that the people who are the most vociferous about the prospects of the company, are those who are the least likely to be affected by its disappearance. It's interesting that I haven't noticed such vitriol directed at other manufactures such as Pagani - you may get the odd negative comment about subjective elements such as the appearance of their cars, but rarely any comment about the company's financial standing (which afterall is just as much a mystery).flemke said:
That is fair enough, but it does matter whether the company that made your car will still be in business in a few years' time.
But as you must know Flemke, the majority of people who are in a position to be considering such a car are not stupid (granted I can think of a couple of notable examples 
). So if this is a concern (and, to be blunt, some don't seem to give a rat's arse about it), they will be making their own enquiries, not taking part in some pointless speculation on a website. I just find it rather insulting that some armchair 'experts' seem to think that they know more about the viability of a company than someone directly affected by it, yet they continue to pontificate when in reality they know absolutely nothing about it. It begins to smack of people deliberately wanting the company to fail, whether that's because they have some agenda or it simply massages their fragile egos, I don't know.Daisy Duke said:
flemke said:
That is fair enough, but it does matter whether the company that made your car will still be in business in a few years' time.
But as you must know Flemke, the majority of people who are in a position to be considering such a car are not stupid (granted I can think of a couple of notable examples ). So if this is a concern (and, to be blunt, some don't seem to give a rat's arse about it), they will be making their own enquiries, not taking part in some pointless speculation on a website. I just find it rather insulting that some armchair 'experts' seem to think that they know more about the viability of a company than someone directly affected by it, yet they continue to pontificate when in reality they know absolutely nothing about it. It begins to smack of people deliberately wanting the company to fail, whether that's because they have some agenda or it simply massages their fragile egos, I don't know.don logan said:
I`m starting to get the impression that you think the majority of us are plebs to be honest! (no, I don`t need therapy for an inferiority complex)
Not at all (although by definition I suppose most people could be described as plebeian 
). I'm just fed up by the fact that there are some who don't seem to ever want to discuss the actual car, just the viability of the company, and these individuals almost inevitably are those who are the least likely to know what the real situation is. So I have to wonder if their comments are made in a hope that they'll become a self-fulling prophecy by putting off potential customers, or it's simply a result of jealousy (such an unattractive trait) that propels them to attack anyone who shows interest in the car. Luckily one such hate-filled individual seems to have been prevented from spewing his ignorant bile further. For clarity, I'm not saying the topic is verboten, just that speculation is rather pointless as the only person who really knows what the future is likely to hold for the company is hardly likely to show his hand here. BTW I happen to agree with you over the brightly coloured accents, but then that's a subjective opinion and they're not the only company to have a press car in such a incongruous paint scheme eg Bentley.
It strikes me as ironic that in other threads people are holding up the 458 as passionate and full of soul when comparing it to the MP4 XRT2CV robot. They completely ignore this British made supercar, which in a rolling start at 40 mph would trounce either of them (press cars included ). The M600 is more fun, just watch the EVO track test video and see which car the journo was sat grinning in after a fast lap. With a paddle shift box and brakesteer etc, it would be faster than either of them, but probably just a little less FUN!
The M600 has had a difficult gestation. That it is has ultimately been this well received is a credit to all the passionate small group of people who have worked on it (including LN himself). To take on the biggest of boys in the market, Mac and Fez and come away with head held high is remarkable.
I take my hat off to those people who see this and buy one of these beasts.
). The M600 is more fun, just watch the EVO track test video and see which car the journo was sat grinning in after a fast lap. With a paddle shift box and brakesteer etc, it would be faster than either of them, but probably just a little less FUN!The M600 has had a difficult gestation. That it is has ultimately been this well received is a credit to all the passionate small group of people who have worked on it (including LN himself). To take on the biggest of boys in the market, Mac and Fez and come away with head held high is remarkable.
I take my hat off to those people who see this and buy one of these beasts.
Daisy Duke said:
don logan said:
I`m starting to get the impression that you think the majority of us are plebs to be honest! (no, I don`t need therapy for an inferiority complex)
Not at all (although by definition I suppose most people could be described as plebeian ). I'm just fed up by the fact that there are some who don't seem to ever want to discuss the actual car, just the viability of the company, and these individuals almost inevitably are those who are the least likely to know what the real situation is. So I have to wonder if their comments are made in a hope that they'll become a self-fulling prophecy by putting off potential customers, or it's simply a result of jealousy (such an unattractive trait) that propels them to attack anyone who shows interest in the car. Luckily one such hate-filled individual seems to have been prevented from spewing his ignorant bile further. For clarity, I'm not saying the topic is verboten, just that speculation is rather pointless as the only person who really knows what the future is likely to hold for the company is hardly likely to show his hand here. BTW I happen to agree with you over the brightly coloured accents, but then that's a subjective opinion and they're not the only company to have a press car in such a incongruous paint scheme eg Bentley.
PH can be an amazing place to get information and interact with like minded people, it can also be an incredibly frustrating place with people on the attack, misunderstandings, the same old arguments being brought up over and over BUT having read your posts I felt that there was an undercurrent which was basically saying - if you can`t afford to buy one,keep your opinions to yourself!
If you think that speculation is pointless then that kind of limits what PH offers a lot of people!
I`m not trying to be awkward or looking for a side argument I promise and I only bothered to look at Noble Automotive because it was being discussed, attacked / defended etc, other than that I only care about the car! (however Flemke does have a point, I`ve been put off buying cars that maintaining in the future could be problematic if the company does disappear)
don logan said:
I appreciate what you have just said and agree that people do like to be doom-mongers so that if things do go wrong they can say they told us so, yes that`s horrible and pointless, but I have to say if you do a credit check on Noble Automotive there is a scarey amount of big numbers in red ink (I`m sure that this is all to be expected with a long term venture that hopefully will come right)
PH can be an amazing place to get information and interact with like minded people, it can also be an incredibly frustrating place with people on the attack, misunderstandings, the same old arguments being brought up over and over BUT having read your posts I felt that there was an undercurrent which was basically saying - if you can`t afford to buy one,keep your opinions to yourself!
If you think that speculation is pointless then that kind of limits what PH offers a lot of people!
I`m not trying to be awkward or looking for a side argument I promise and I only bothered to look at Noble Automotive because it was being discussed, attacked / defended etc, other than that I only care about the car! (however Flemke does have a point, I`ve been put off buying cars that maintaining in the future could be problematic if the company does disappear)
Surely if you do a credit check, you need to look at Thetford/Norcold and Dyson RacingPH can be an amazing place to get information and interact with like minded people, it can also be an incredibly frustrating place with people on the attack, misunderstandings, the same old arguments being brought up over and over BUT having read your posts I felt that there was an undercurrent which was basically saying - if you can`t afford to buy one,keep your opinions to yourself!
If you think that speculation is pointless then that kind of limits what PH offers a lot of people!
I`m not trying to be awkward or looking for a side argument I promise and I only bothered to look at Noble Automotive because it was being discussed, attacked / defended etc, other than that I only care about the car! (however Flemke does have a point, I`ve been put off buying cars that maintaining in the future could be problematic if the company does disappear)
I think Fenke's argument is a little weak when you look at th ecurrent costs of maintaining an F1, the prices for spares are unbelievable, if Mclaren went bust tomorrow another company could produce the parts for a fraction of the cost. And they could if Noble failed.
Adrian W said:
Surely if you do a credit check, you need to look at Thetford/Norcold and Dyson Racing
I think Fenke's argument is a little weak when you look at th ecurrent costs of maintaining an F1, the prices for spares are unbelievable, if Mclaren went bust tomorrow another company could produce the parts for a fraction of the cost. And they could if Noble failed.
Only Noble Endevours came up as the ultimate Parent company!I think Fenke's argument is a little weak when you look at th ecurrent costs of maintaining an F1, the prices for spares are unbelievable, if Mclaren went bust tomorrow another company could produce the parts for a fraction of the cost. And they could if Noble failed.
Do you think they would? I`m sure another company COULD produce parts but how many of ANYTHING would they ever sell? it`s not like the TVR situation where there are lots of cars that need LOTS of parts!
don logan said:
Adrian W said:
Surely if you do a credit check, you need to look at Thetford/Norcold and Dyson Racing
I think Fenke's argument is a little weak when you look at th ecurrent costs of maintaining an F1, the prices for spares are unbelievable, if Mclaren went bust tomorrow another company could produce the parts for a fraction of the cost. And they could if Noble failed.
Only Noble Endevours came up as the ultimate Parent company!I think Fenke's argument is a little weak when you look at th ecurrent costs of maintaining an F1, the prices for spares are unbelievable, if Mclaren went bust tomorrow another company could produce the parts for a fraction of the cost. And they could if Noble failed.
The current "interesting" balance sheet and trading P&L is entirely down to his personal underwriting and capital injections, rather than any significant liquid assets or cash balances being taken into the Noble company structure.
Granted most of the BS issues are previous, and the current P&L is obvious as 15 people with no cars sold burns the odd million or three, but if people are looking for guarentees that Noble will continue, a credit check isn't going to provide that comfort as it will essentially say the company isn't trading viably.
If Dyson loses interest like Tony Stelliga did with Marcos (another person who the odd £10m really didn't make that much difference) it can't keep going on it's own currently.
J
Edited by joust on Thursday 21st July 09:04
Daisy Duke said:
flemke said:
That is fair enough, but it does matter whether the company that made your car will still be in business in a few years' time.
But as you must know Flemke, the majority of people who are in a position to be considering such a car are not stupid (granted I can think of a couple of notable examples ). So if this is a concern (and, to be blunt, some don't seem to give a rat's arse about it), they will be making their own enquiries, not taking part in some pointless speculation on a website. I just find it rather insulting that some armchair 'experts' seem to think that they know more about the viability of a company than someone directly affected by it, yet they continue to pontificate when in reality they know absolutely nothing about it. It begins to smack of people deliberately wanting the company to fail, whether that's because they have some agenda or it simply massages their fragile egos, I don't know.As a gross generalisation, I'd submit that the internet, in toto, will quite possibly be the least bad source of information. That's not to say that an unrestricted forum, such as this one, would be the least bad.
I think what we do know is that this company does only one thing: build these cars. They don't have a longstanding brand value to protect, or to rely on, for that matter. They don't have other revenue streams to help get them through the lean times, or to put into development.
It's nice that the company is (AIUI) owner by a rich guy, so there is potentially more funding available from him, but I believe that he's not British, which is negative in this context, and may not even live in UK. It's not the toughest thing in the world to walk away from a money-losing start-up project!
The above issues have nothing in particular to do with this company or car per se. They apply to all such situations. If you look at the number of small car companies that have flamed out fairly early in their lives, it's got to be a concern here as well. That concern is nobody's fault, but it's the way it works, even if the car is an absolutely spectacular machine.
black pipebandit said:
call me stupid, but does Lee Noble run the company. I thought he sold it to set up Fenix?
Lee left Noble Automotive rather acrimoniously in early 2008, and then set up Fenix with Chris Murray later that year. flemke said:
The above issues have nothing in particular to do with this company or car per se. They apply to all such situations. If you look at the number of small car companies that have flamed out fairly early in their lives, it's got to be a concern here as well. That concern is nobody's fault, but it's the way it works, even if the car is an absolutely spectacular machine.
True but it seems to be a peculiarly British trait, as I said, you don't see such speculation regarding other foreign manufacturers. Who really knows if Peter Dyson will get bored of this project, but interested parties will at least be talking to him directly and deciding if they trust (yes I know that's an old-fashioned concept, but I'd thought that you, of anybody, would understand it ) him. If someone actually has some real information about the direction of the company then it's great if they share it, however it doesn't take a genius to simply point out that the figures don't add up, so I'm not sure what it achieves to constantly say so. The ironic thing is, I do have concerns about how Noble are going to make their money, but it has nothing to do with Peter pulling out, and yet no one else seems to have picked up on it - I suppose I've actually thought about it more than most though.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff