RE: Ineos Grenadier production pushed back

[Cold]

It appears they have Youtube channel. Hosted by Mark Evans, it documents what's been going on so far in bitesize chunks.

The playlist is here if you want a look:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdQcsLYMDv9...

[sisu]

I can understand Toyota/Nissan/G-Wagon tooling being used to get their moneys worth from a 1980s investment.
Suzuki made the mistake with the Jimney by going old school and then not being able to sell it in the UK, Europe and other markets.
Still doesn't answer my question of who is buying this? You make fun of this not being a Q7 or a Quashqai, but a Mans utility 4x4. But that is 20% of the sales in the UK. Every car maker is building SUVs because they sell and they have a good profit margin when people want options.

Aiming at the no frills market is stupid because brand loyalty within the 4x4 community is religious. God forbid you tow your dedicated mud plugger with a 4x4 from another car maker.

[ChrisW.]

bmv6197 said:

So in summary then:

- man with lots of money buys into winning F1 team and it is still winning
- same man with lots of money buys into non-winning AC sailing team, and it is still not winning
- that same man again laments the demise of a rugged British-built 4x4 icon, and there still won’t be a rugged British-built 4x4
- lots-of-money-man vows to innovate and build a modern version of a rugged British 4x4 and ends up hitting “107% magnification” on a photocopy of a LR Defender to the point a) it looks like a gangly Chinese-copy of a Defender and b) half the people reading this can’t work out if it’s a new vehicle or a facelift of the original Defender
- said man supports Brexit as a way of securing Britain’s future, then proceeds to support France’s future

There’s a theme here: Doesn’t do what he says. Doesn’t make a positive difference. Still has lots of money...

Reality is a cruel mistress...

Edited by bmv6197 on Friday 14th May 02:38

The Chinese have a perfect copy of the Evoke.

But they steal the IP that they want and sell wherever the IP can't be enforced ... which with their minor changes is almost everywhere.

I have seen our IP stolen compete with the fixes to resolve the problems that we hadn't envisaged in the original !

Evidence of theft in the DNA ...

As for Jim ... he appears only to be out for number 1 and the branding is now in my view an insult.

Grenadier ??? The Samurai already has it where robustness and simple local servicing is important, well done to Toyota who got there first a long time ago, by their own merits.

[Jon_S_Rally]

sisu said:

I can understand Toyota/Nissan/G-Wagon tooling being used to get their moneys worth from a 1980s investment.
Suzuki made the mistake with the Jimney by going old school and then not being able to sell it in the UK, Europe and other markets.
Still doesn't answer my question of who is buying this? You make fun of this not being a Q7 or a Quashqai, but a Mans utility 4x4. But that is 20% of the sales in the UK. Every car maker is building SUVs because they sell and they have a good profit margin when people want options.

Aiming at the no frills market is stupid because brand loyalty within the 4x4 community is religious. God forbid you tow your dedicated mud plugger with a 4x4 from another car maker.

You do realise that it will be sold in other countries as well as the UK, don't you?

[Andeh1]

Jon_S_Rally said:

I have no idea what that first paragraph is about.

Given the prices of used Defenders and, as I said above, both Toyota and Nissan have continued to build aged versions of 4x4 vehicles, do you really think it's "madness"? It seems to me that Ineos are just trying to take a piece of a well-established market, while also trading a bit on the association with the most iconic vehicle from that market.

As for female buyers, I think you're getting confused about who this vehicle is aimed at. It's not a Quashqui or Audi Q7, it's a utility off-roader, aimed at commercial users and those that want a basic, utilitarian vehicle.

Of course it is madness. INEOs are fools trying this venture, they will get burnt on this one. Nissan & Toyota have global supply chains, huge volumes, and massive historical pedigree on tooling...as well as access to global developed(ish) markets & economies of scale. There is NO comparison...just because they are aimed at a similar market.

As foe closer to home, commercial want practical, reliable, value for money. They don't want a pretender vehicle, with a £10k price premium, with no support network, from an unknown manufacturer ''but it looks like a defender''.......especially when the market is flooded with commercial 4x4s from mass volume OEMs who can now afford to do everything cheaply/basic....but then allow you to spec it up to luxurious levels...whilst STILL beating the Grenandier's 'From £40k...' ....claim 1-2 years from launch.

Factor in the inevitably crap MPG, high emissions and the tax for the round up of the ''madness'' criteria.

Remember.....It's simply 'not possible' to make a basic 'zero frills' vehicle these days. Legislation & regulations forces you down the route of fitting ABS, EBD, Speed limiter, seat belt warnings, air bags, emergency call, bulbs warnings etc etc....then you need the practicality of sensors, OBDs ecus & carryover kits from imported 'modern' toys (remember BMW engine....). That's before people want the 'basics' like bluetooth, USB ports for charging, power take off, roof rail, trailers, lights & hard points.

......then after all that....he prices it at £40k+...which kills off ANY market outside of the modern developed ones...ya know...the ones who don't want 'raw basics'. He is 20 years too late.

Edited by Andeh1 on Sunday 16th May 14:57

[Andeh1]

Jon_S_Rally said:

You do realise that it will be sold in other countries as well as the UK, don't you?

Like where? How many countries globally, outside of UK, Europe & USA can afford a £40k vehicle with no local support network?

[Evercross]

ChrisW. said:

The Chinese have a perfect copy of the Evoke.

But they steal the IP that they want and sell wherever the IP can't be enforced ... which with their minor changes is almost everywhere.

That old canard!

The Chinese didn't 'steal' the Evoque IP, they legally copied the styling because JLR didn't file their copyrights properly in China and put their version of the car on display at a motorshow before the patent applications had been filed without realising that was the same as putting it in the public domain. Ignorance of the local laws was the problem there.

Eventually JLR managed to gain the copyrights retrospectively but by that point the design was a generation out of date and the copy had already gone out of production.

Also, the Landwind Evoque replica was based on Honda CRV underpinnings so was probably more reliable than the Range Rover version.....

[anonymous-user]

Andeh1 said:

.he prices it at £40k+..

Given the small potential sales volumes, the program delays and the likely size of the bill for the engineering from Magna Steyr (who are used to fleecing the likes of Merc and VW, ie they are not "budget" players) if this car comes out on sale at ANYWHERE near £40k i'd be amazed.

(The Landcruiser which has massively larger build volumes and the ability to share costs and components across the entire Toyota brand, starts at £38k in the uk, with top models breaking the £50k barrier before options......)

[CFS]

After pulling out of the UK & Bridgend (who was absolutely on the bones of its arse, due to Ford Motor Company pulling out with INEOS pretending to be a saviour, until MB flashed thier Hambach plant) who genuinely gives a st??????

Fake company for a fake JLR.

Mr Radcliffe is known for being ruthless, not really the person to bring back BRITISH pride when made in France by French/whatever illegals available.

Radcliffe could have have BRITAIN at his feet but no, short termism got in the way.

Btw the Bridgend employees were already having pre-applications/interviews, whilst losing thier jobs & scared for thier families futures. But Radcliffe decided they didn’t matter & hambach would make more money.

Really makes you want to invest in this man.

Cheers Jim. 👍🍺

[Maldini35]

CFS said:

After pulling out of the UK & Bridgend (who was absolutely on the bones of its arse, due to Ford Motor Company pulling out with INEOS pretending to be a saviour, until MB flashed thier Hambach plant) who genuinely gives a st??????

Fake company for a fake JLR.

Mr Radcliffe is known for being ruthless, not really the person to bring back BRITISH pride when made in France by French/whatever illegals available.

Radcliffe could have have BRITAIN at his feet but no, short termism got in the way.

Btw the Bridgend employees were already having pre-applications/interviews, whilst losing thier jobs & scared for thier families futures. But Radcliffe decided they didn’t matter & hambach would make more money.

Really makes you want to invest in this man.

Cheers Jim. ????

In the interest of balance, there is no denying he is an incredibly successful businessman who has created employment for thousands.
His employees can all pay their mortgage largely thanks to his shrewdness. That's a big deal.
He has to make hard business decisions everyday and there's no way he can keep everybody happy.

But.....

He is a hard man to like.

He talked the talk at the early stages of the Grenadier, flying the flag etc.

Then when the commercial realities dawned on him he decided to get the Germans to engineer it and build it in France.
If he had avoided the jingoistic nonsense at the beginning I doubt there would be so much animosity.
Can't have your cake an eat it etc.

Then there's his other activities... Pro-Brexit - make Britain great...then live in Monaco to avoid paying any tax. Screw the NHS doctors and nurses - if I can get a few more million to add to my pile...How rich does one man need to be? Perhaps a naive question but it still stands.

What I find most baffling is for such a brilliant business man he has made some incredibly poor decisions re sponsorship over recent years.

Buy into Mercedes F1 just as regulation changes are about to level the playing field - not to mention the fact that everybody is bored to tears of watching Mercedes win and seem more interested in the midfield teams (fuelled by Drive To Survive).
Watching Jim celebrate on the podium a few weeks ago felt uncomfortable. The self indulgent fantasy of a man who has just written a big cheque but wants to believe he's part of the team.

He bought Team Sky cycling just as it imploded.

He bought a high profile America's Cup challenger with Olympic god Ben Ainslie only to see it it fail somewhat embarrassingly given the hype.

Then there is his ill-advised football team purchases - Nice & FC Lausanne.

It appears he has more money than he knows what to do with so is indulging all his boyhood dreams.

It should feel like "good on you mate , that's what I would do" but somehow it doesn't.

Instead the schadenfreude is strong.

Well for me anyway - perhaps he is well loved by the wider public?