Talk to me about Land Rover Defenders...
Discussion
OK, I'm in the market for a Defender 90. Use will be going shooting, tip runs, odd towing jobs (Radical & BJ trailer) and maybe a bit of greenlaning (nothing too extreme). Thought I'd be able to pick something up with a sound chassis & bulkhead that wasn't a complete wreck for about £2K. OK, now I know better. Those things seem to hold their value seriously well. I've seen 10yo County spec go for £11K on ebay - that's less than 50% depreciation over 10 years and 100,000 miles! For cars where I've seen comments like "the only model where welding is considered normal maintenance" this is very surprising.
My research suggests that a 10 year old car with a Td5 engine will be in the £7K-£10K range. I'm quite attracted to the Td5 engine due to the easy & cheap tunability - having 180bhp feels much better than the 110 that a 200tdi or 300tdi had when new!
So to the questions:
- What's the PH opinion on the 200tdi/300tdi/Td5 engines? Am I right to consider a Td5 as being best, or would I be better with something simpler/more agricultural?
- The wife fancies windows in the back, and I've seen people advertising Panel Van -> County conversions for about £500. Is there a reason to avoid this route (panel vans are more plentiful & better priced than County spec)
- A few people make a big deal about the PLG road tax rating on panel vans, but a pre-March 2003 registered car of 1.5l+ has the same road tax as PLG of £215. Or am I missing something?
- Does the suspension benefit from being changed/lifted? A lot of cars advertise their 2" lift, is there a benefit to this or are people just going for the off-road look and sacrificing road manners as a consequence?
I don't really *need* a Defender - it's really just me wanting to scratch an itch. Am I mad to be considering sinking ~£7k into one of these things - will a 10yo Defender be a rust-toting money pit of pain? The demand for these things suggests I'll always be able to move it on - am I wrong?
Cheers in advance!
My research suggests that a 10 year old car with a Td5 engine will be in the £7K-£10K range. I'm quite attracted to the Td5 engine due to the easy & cheap tunability - having 180bhp feels much better than the 110 that a 200tdi or 300tdi had when new!
So to the questions:
- What's the PH opinion on the 200tdi/300tdi/Td5 engines? Am I right to consider a Td5 as being best, or would I be better with something simpler/more agricultural?
- The wife fancies windows in the back, and I've seen people advertising Panel Van -> County conversions for about £500. Is there a reason to avoid this route (panel vans are more plentiful & better priced than County spec)
- A few people make a big deal about the PLG road tax rating on panel vans, but a pre-March 2003 registered car of 1.5l+ has the same road tax as PLG of £215. Or am I missing something?
- Does the suspension benefit from being changed/lifted? A lot of cars advertise their 2" lift, is there a benefit to this or are people just going for the off-road look and sacrificing road manners as a consequence?
I don't really *need* a Defender - it's really just me wanting to scratch an itch. Am I mad to be considering sinking ~£7k into one of these things - will a 10yo Defender be a rust-toting money pit of pain? The demand for these things suggests I'll always be able to move it on - am I wrong?
Cheers in advance!
While sounding a bit sure of myself, I do like to feel as though I'm a bit of a Land Rover boff. Mostly because I've been around and involved with them all my life. I've had 4 or 5 different ones and between my close family I reckon we've owned in the region of 50-60 different Land Rovers.
If you really only want to spend this money then I say look at:
-Disco/Classic RR. You'll get more vehicle for your money at this price, esp the Disco. And beneath the body a Disco is surprisingly similar to a Defender.
In fact I prefer to think of a Disco as:
"A Defender with more elbow & shoulder room and a more comfy interior"
As that's exactly what they are. Just as capable off road, but more spacious and civilised on it.
Or
Jeep Cherokee/Grand Cherokee - As much as it annoys people on here. The Jeep did come first, it is the vehicle that inspired and helped created the Land Rover, hell, even the first Land Rover prototypes where built on a Jeep chassis!!
In short the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are great value vehicles and you'll buy a good one at this price range. Just as good off road as a Land Rover and arguably better on it as they typically weigh less being a Unibody construciton instead of the traditional ladder chassis like the Landy.
Td5 is smoother, sounds better and capable of more HP more easily.
That said, I do like Tdi's, they have a classic charm about them. But they are noisy and unrefined. A tweak of the injector pump and a bigger intercooler will really wake them up too.
No benefit between 200 and 300Tdi's IMO. Very similar.
1. It depends what you want to do with the vehicle, as to whether its a benefit or not.
2. There are a HUGE amount of different kits. Some are basic and may reduce some wanted attributes, some are very good. Simply saying 2" lift, means almost nothing if you don't know what's been done to achieve it.
In short a standard 90 is highly capable off road, and highly usable on road. You have to know what you want and why if you are to deviate from this.
There will ALWAYS be something that needs doing, but usually these are niggles. Overall reliability is generally very good, they are robust and dependable.
But they ALL leak!!! Usually water in and oil out. If they don't then there is usually something seriously wrong with them
Any and every part can be repaired and replaced on these. So there will always be a viable market for them. And I can't see prices particularly slipping. So depreciation wise it's as sound as you are likely to buy.
They are addictive though and one of the most enjoyable vehicles I've owned and driven. But you need to accept them for what they are. If you start moaning about your elbow hitting the window, then you just aren't getting it - you should have bought a Disco.
PhilboSE said:
OK, I'm in the market for a Defender 90. Use will be going shooting, tip runs, odd towing jobs (Radical & BJ trailer) and maybe a bit of greenlaning (nothing too extreme). Thought I'd be able to pick something up with a sound chassis & bulkhead that wasn't a complete wreck for about £2K.
You can get vehicles at this price range. But they'll be rough and/or needing work. Expect 2.5TD's (pre Tdi's) and a few V8's. Technically pre 1990 vehicles aren't Defenders either, they are Ninety, One Ten and 127.If you really only want to spend this money then I say look at:
-Disco/Classic RR. You'll get more vehicle for your money at this price, esp the Disco. And beneath the body a Disco is surprisingly similar to a Defender.
In fact I prefer to think of a Disco as:
"A Defender with more elbow & shoulder room and a more comfy interior"
As that's exactly what they are. Just as capable off road, but more spacious and civilised on it.
Or
Jeep Cherokee/Grand Cherokee - As much as it annoys people on here. The Jeep did come first, it is the vehicle that inspired and helped created the Land Rover, hell, even the first Land Rover prototypes where built on a Jeep chassis!!
In short the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are great value vehicles and you'll buy a good one at this price range. Just as good off road as a Land Rover and arguably better on it as they typically weigh less being a Unibody construciton instead of the traditional ladder chassis like the Landy.
PhilboSE said:
- What's the PH opinion on the 200tdi/300tdi/Td5 engines? Am I right to consider a Td5 as being best, or would I be better with something simpler/more agricultural?
The Td5 IS THE BEST!!! By a country mile. Some on the internet will claim it isn't, but usually it's down to silly things like the air suspension on a Disco2 played up, so they label the Td5 as bad Td5 is smoother, sounds better and capable of more HP more easily.
That said, I do like Tdi's, they have a classic charm about them. But they are noisy and unrefined. A tweak of the injector pump and a bigger intercooler will really wake them up too.
No benefit between 200 and 300Tdi's IMO. Very similar.
PhilboSE said:
- The wife fancies windows in the back, and I've seen people advertising Panel Van -> County conversions for about £500. Is there a reason to avoid this route (panel vans are more plentiful & better priced than County spec)
Its the finishing touches. Even putting windows in doesn't mean it'll have the roof lining, speakers, interior light and stuff. Not the end of the world if you don't mind and can be sorted if you wanted. My first D90 was a panel van which I had windows and rear seats fitted too.PhilboSE said:
- Does the suspension benefit from being changed/lifted? A lot of cars advertise their 2" lift, is there a benefit to this or are people just going for the off-road look and sacrificing road manners as a consequence?
This is a real loaded question.1. It depends what you want to do with the vehicle, as to whether its a benefit or not.
2. There are a HUGE amount of different kits. Some are basic and may reduce some wanted attributes, some are very good. Simply saying 2" lift, means almost nothing if you don't know what's been done to achieve it.
In short a standard 90 is highly capable off road, and highly usable on road. You have to know what you want and why if you are to deviate from this.
PhilboSE said:
I don't really *need* a Defender - it's really just me wanting to scratch an itch. Am I mad to be considering sinking ~£7k into one of these things - will a 10yo Defender be a rust-toting money pit of pain?
Land Rover's like TLC. If you can't cope with a car that'll drive you mad as well as make you smile then it may not be for you.There will ALWAYS be something that needs doing, but usually these are niggles. Overall reliability is generally very good, they are robust and dependable.
But they ALL leak!!! Usually water in and oil out. If they don't then there is usually something seriously wrong with them
Any and every part can be repaired and replaced on these. So there will always be a viable market for them. And I can't see prices particularly slipping. So depreciation wise it's as sound as you are likely to buy.
They are addictive though and one of the most enjoyable vehicles I've owned and driven. But you need to accept them for what they are. If you start moaning about your elbow hitting the window, then you just aren't getting it - you should have bought a Disco.
If you want a Defender buy a Defender, if you buy anything else you will always regret it.
Basically what 300bhp said, although I wouldn't get one with a 2" lift unless your going to take it off road, and I would be wary of tuning it up to 180bhp many people get head issues, and at the end of the day I don't think the Defender needs it.
A TD5 Defender is one of the most fun cars you will own, and puts a very big smile on your face when you learn to drive them properly.
Basically what 300bhp said, although I wouldn't get one with a 2" lift unless your going to take it off road, and I would be wary of tuning it up to 180bhp many people get head issues, and at the end of the day I don't think the Defender needs it.
A TD5 Defender is one of the most fun cars you will own, and puts a very big smile on your face when you learn to drive them properly.
Can't comment on the Landy, and I guess x million people can't be wrong, but what about the Land Cruiser, or more likely Pajero at that price. Been in alot of them, and they really feel good on the road, and their off road capabilities are just as legendary. Hell of alot around at the price you're pitching at.
icepop said:
Can't comment on the Landy, and I guess x million people can't be wrong, but what about the Land Cruiser, or more likely Pajero at that price. Been in alot of them, and they really feel good on the road, and their off road capabilities are just not really as legendary.
Nor arguably as capable either. Torsion bars and IFS being the biggest culprit and lack of stock articulation.Although not a huge help, i've driven every land rover model (defender, disco ,freelander, RR). The defender was a huge amount of fun, but was very very cramped for me and something I definately could not live with. The one i enjoyed the most by a country mile was the td5 Disco, absolutely fantastic car. Great in the snow and excellent for just cruising along.
for £10k you should be able to get a decent one also?
for £10k you should be able to get a decent one also?
My Dad has a TD5 Defender 110 (Untuned, Cooper STTs and front winch) , for towing its not ideal, if you are on back roads towing any sort of weight its very easy to drop the turbo off its boost and very difficult to get it back (I know,PHers are the best drivers and would never let this happen on there watch.)
Its uncomfortable, noisy, slow, it leaks water in and oil out, poor turning circle and terrible understeer.
But it has moved both my sisters belongings around the country easy, its capable offroad and will tow fine on the motorway.
We had a 300TDI Discovery before this, that was more comfortable and went almost as well offroad.
If i was you i would look at the Japanese options, they are much more car like and can be just as capable offroad if that matters to you.
Its uncomfortable, noisy, slow, it leaks water in and oil out, poor turning circle and terrible understeer.
But it has moved both my sisters belongings around the country easy, its capable offroad and will tow fine on the motorway.
We had a 300TDI Discovery before this, that was more comfortable and went almost as well offroad.
If i was you i would look at the Japanese options, they are much more car like and can be just as capable offroad if that matters to you.
We have had a few (2000 TD5 90, 1994 200tdi 110, 1997 300tdi soft top) and have the following comments :
Our TD5 was 18 months old when we bought it, constantly worried about scratching it, was pretty reliable, body work suffered electrolisis. TD5 was pretty good on the road.
The 200tdi was lifted, drove horribly very reliable was ok towing.
The 300tdi 90 soft top we have now is the best drive even on muds, its battered and scratched, always starts first time. At a guess its probable worth 6k ish.
They have always been look after well, the only thing I would change our current one for would be Disco 3, we had one when they were new, great for towing and general knocking about in.
If you want a defender buy a defender
Phib
Our TD5 was 18 months old when we bought it, constantly worried about scratching it, was pretty reliable, body work suffered electrolisis. TD5 was pretty good on the road.
The 200tdi was lifted, drove horribly very reliable was ok towing.
The 300tdi 90 soft top we have now is the best drive even on muds, its battered and scratched, always starts first time. At a guess its probable worth 6k ish.
They have always been look after well, the only thing I would change our current one for would be Disco 3, we had one when they were new, great for towing and general knocking about in.
If you want a defender buy a defender
Phib
I am thinking about another 110CSW at the moment, then I came across this paint job, custom apparently!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANDROVER-DEFENDER-110-300TD...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANDROVER-DEFENDER-110-300TD...
hora said:
OP do you like using your annual holiday entitlement dropping off and picking up your car from whatever garage it needs work doing at next?
Sorry but that's a load of rubbish.hora said:
I drove a mates one/ Gawd its awful.
I know some people seem to struggle with the concept of 4x4's, but I fail to see how they are awful? What are your benchmarks, how are you making this assessment?300bhp/ton said:
icepop said:
Can't comment on the Landy, and I guess x million people can't be wrong, but what about the Land Cruiser, or more likely Pajero at that price. Been in alot of them, and they really feel good on the road, and their off road capabilities are just not really as legendary.
Nor arguably as capable either. Torsion bars and IFS being the biggest culprit and lack of stock articulation."OK, I'm in the market for a Defender 90. Use will be going shooting, tip runs, odd towing jobs (Radical & BJ trailer) and maybe a bit of greenlaning (nothing too extreme)."
I gather from your post you're into Landies, but come on, I think a LC might just manage it, and IS a better road car.
icepop said:
He's going to the shops in it man, and towing a trailer, and maybe a few garden paths.
"OK, I'm in the market for a Defender 90. Use will be going shooting, tip runs, odd towing jobs (Radical & BJ trailer) and maybe a bit of greenlaning (nothing too extreme)."
I gather from your post you're into Landies, but come on, I think a LC might just manage it, and IS a better road car.
I know, I was just replying to your comment. "OK, I'm in the market for a Defender 90. Use will be going shooting, tip runs, odd towing jobs (Radical & BJ trailer) and maybe a bit of greenlaning (nothing too extreme)."
I gather from your post you're into Landies, but come on, I think a LC might just manage it, and IS a better road car.
I have nothing against Jap 4x4's. Not sure how much better they are though on road. Think it's marginal at best and I rather like the way a 90 handles on road. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but there is something about them that makes them fun.
thinfourth2 said:
Can you weld?
Im in the market for £2k defender..... as a 2nd car/project, to scratch an itch. 3guys at work have them, and they were their first words: "can you weld?"
followed by: "6monthly services do include welding.... you know that right?"
Are they really as bad as everyone makes out?
Defenders have great style and I can see why you'd want one. Have only test driven them and find the Discovery a more comfy half-way house but if you want the real bone-shaking deal go for the Defender, as you say you will be able to move it on when you want. I tow two good sized horses in a large Ifor Williams trailer so I need a landrover to feel safe, the other 4x4's don't cut it. I would choose a disco or possibly a defender everytime. I use my Disco Td5 (2005) for everything and don't have a fit when the dog is ill or child needs contents of life transported to Manchester and I go to recycling place with a crazy amount of stuff. When I need it to be a car I take off the seat covers (essential accessories) wash the beast and go to the races looking reasonably presentable and in great comfort. Drives like a slug so I am good for other road users on country roads and can keep up with the rest on the motorways - eventually. My husband wants me to have a newer Disco but I love mine. I think the 3 amigos are going to have to be replaced soon and that won't be cheap. Sorry starting to witter. Life is too short - go for what you want.
mgmrw2003 said:
Im in the market for £2k defender..... as a 2nd car/project, to scratch an itch. 3guys at work have them, and they were their first words: "can you weld?"
followed by: "6monthly services do include welding.... you know that right?"
Are they really as bad as everyone makes out?
This is an early factory V8, it's my Uncles, although my brother owned it before him. It's had some bulkhead repair panels (one each side of the windscreen) done and a paint job. Although that was 5-7 years ago.
I don't think it's had any welding done other than that.
This one has had a much harder life. It's had lots of patches to the chassis, but it's still original and still solid and legal. It hasn't had any welding to bulkhead and has done over 120,000 miles.
lost in espace said:
I am thinking about another 110CSW at the moment, then I came across this paint job, custom apparently!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANDROVER-DEFENDER-110-300TD...
so it's had a front end smash/ROT and been rebuilt on the cheap?http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANDROVER-DEFENDER-110-300TD...
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