Do I really need more than 300 BHP?

[thrashermax]

I've been lucky enough to have owned some cars that are recognised as nice driver's cars... My first 200bhp car was a Volvo T4, I enjoyed the turbo lag, you could feel a shove in the back once the turbo kicked in. After that I moved onto a BMW E46 328, the straight six was really smooth, around 200bhp again and fun to drive.

Then I got a Porsche 944 Turbo, around 225bhp... This was lovely, 50/50 weight distribution, great feel and once again, old fashioned turbo lag!

The kids were growing so I moved onto a Mercedes E55 AMG, 5.4 V8. Loads of torque, mad acceleration for such a big car. This was around 350bhp. It was enjoyable but after 18 months I got bored of the auto box, so moved into a BMW E34 M5, 3.8 straight six with manual box and around 340 bhp. The car was getting high mileage so I got a E46 330i for a while, 20,000 miles later a Porsche 996 C2 3.4 beckoned. 300bhp, 6 speed manual, great car. The Porsche was kept for 3 years and in the meantime I ran various things... 2004 Mustang 4.6 V8, Audi 225bhp TT, Jag X type, Jag XJ8, Civic EP3 type R, Subaru Impreza WRX.

Eventually, the 996 went as I needed the garage to house various mk1 Escorts.

I moved to a E46 M3 CSL and did 40,000 miles in it. 355bhp, straight six, fantastic induction noise! Anyway, after that I ended up trying a RX8 and Honda Integra DC5... nice cars but it was time to sample a E92 M3.

Now, this is where I have a problem... 414bhp and 0-60 in under 5 secs. In third gear you can reach silly speeds... The scream of the engine at 8,000 rpm is mesmerising but I don't take it there often due to the speed.

It's too much and I find myself missing the usable power of my former 200bhp cars... I remember a trip in my T4 Volvo where I ragged it home using most of the peak power. I couldn't do that in the M3.

Oh, I forgot, I had a supercharged Exige S2... 220bhp of pure driving nirvana but the sound was deafening!

Now, I have the M3 for sale as I'm using an Elise 111R as a daily. The Elise is 190bhp, weighs 890kgs, 6 speed box, lovely balance. No PAS, no traction control, cheap to service.

My conclusion is I don't need more than 300 bhp anymore... My wife has a Clio RS200... I love driving it...

Is less more? Have we been chasing numbers too much?

My next car will probably be a Fiesta ST or Audi S1... Both around 180-200bhp, small and should give me all that I need.

[Krikkit]

A small-capacity V8 with 200-250hp would fit well in a lot of cars imho.

[996TT02]

Yes, it's all about the numbers. People buy by numbers, so manufacturers give them numbers. Although I wish for more power than 115bhp from my MX-5, it's more fun than my 420bhp 996.

The height of ridiculous: A 700bhp SUV.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[thrashermax]

Nanook said:

... S1, which were thinking about, is 230bhp, but 4WD and fairly inert, will be quick but I'm not sure how much fun. Think we've got one for a weekend at the end of the month so I'll find out.

Let us know 😀

[J4CKO]

Not really, I was thinking of going from my nearly 400 bhp Merc to a 500 bhp one but reality bit with kids at Uni, realised that a 68 bhp Citroen C1 does everything I need it to do, but it is just a bit too slow, bought a 225 bhp TT, its not super rapid by and stretch but probably fast enough really, as in it gets up to legal-ish speeds quickly enough and has a bit of shove.

I think there are degrees of overkill, like the modern super saloons, that people then go and tune, great if you can but no, you dont need it.

[Yipper]

You can never have enough power.

Nowadays, you need at least 500bhp, ideally 600-800bhp, to make use of all situations on the roads and to stay one step ahead.

[rallycross]

I agree with you, having had big power mega performance cars you can actually have more fun on the road going back a few steps to something light with great handling and not much grunt and most of all - not much grip - 150 bhp with little 15 inch wheels and 1000 kg or less is more than enough to have lots of fun with.

[Big GT]

I agree 300bhp is there abouts. But it depends on few other points.......

Where is the power ? - Step from a 300bhp TDI into a 420BHP M3 and the M3 is noticeably slower because it has less BHP lower down. Until you hit screamy RPM where it produces more.


Tyres and damping can make a huge difference. No point in having 500bhp with unsuitable rubber with poor damping when 300bhp with good tyres and road contact will perform just as well.

[nickfrog]

Yipper said:

You can never have enough power.

Nowadays, you need at least 500bhp, ideally 600-800bhp, to make use of all situations on the roads and to stay one step ahead.

WTF are you on about ? That is idiotic, even by your standards.

[fat80b]

thrashermax said:

Is less more?

Yes, for enjoyment I find handling is more important than speed as is being on the hairy edge of grip.

The more powerful the car, the better the grip, the higher speeds you need to get to to be "on the limit" = the more boring the car is. I couldn't think of anything worse than a 4wd Impreza thing for example - awesome car but boring nearly all of the time. The car is too good.

My Tuscan(380) and M3(343) can't really be driven at the limit on the roads although they both are tail happy which I like. On track they are great / well balanced at higher speeds but they also fall into the too good category.

My Rally car is too far the other way - It has ~150bhp and is terrifying on the roads at 20mph mostly due to cold hard tyres. I can barely control it at walking speed until it is warm. It's the fear of the thing that is "fun". On a stage on proper tyres, the balance is near perfect.

On the road, I loved my MX5s. Sometimes on AD08s & sometimes on crappy tyres but 140bhp and well balanced = bags of fun. They went sideways every single journey. The rear lost grip just pulling out of a junction and they could hold a power slide easily. The handling and the point where it was "on the limit" matched the power.

I had >1200hp on the drive and would still choose the MX5 to take to work.

[silentbrown]

thrashermax said:

Now, this is where I have a problem... 414bhp and 0-60 in under 5 secs. In third gear you can reach silly speeds... The scream of the engine at 8,000 rpm is mesmerising but I don't take it there often due to the speed.

Same feeling here. Audi S4 B8, Supercharged, 330+bhp, but you can't get near the (lowish) rev limit in anything other than 1st or 2nd without entering license-losing territory. And that's a 7-speed box. In a lot of ways my previous A4 (2.0TFSI, manual) was a lot more satisfying. First world problems

[thrashermax]

fat80b said:

I had >1200hp on the drive and would still choose the MX5 to take to work.

I totally understand that... RWD, light car, small tyres beats massive BHP in a heavier car on the roads.

[kambites]

For "fun", I find about 200bhp/tonne the sweet spot, ideally produced more by reducing weight than increasing power.

For effortlessness of making progress, it's really a question of the more power and/or torque the better although obviously there's massively diminishing returns.

[thrashermax]

I'm even considering a Fiat 100hp for cheap fun... That would be funny, replacing my 4.0 V8 for a 1.4 4 cylinder tinny box.

[TameRacingDriver]

Yep another one here, I went from a Z4 Coupe 3.0Si (allegedly remapped up to 288 bhp) to a 138 bhp MR2 Roadster. Yet a good drive is simply more fun in the MR2 despite it being much slower. You can really thrash the balls off it, you have a wee bit less grip, weighs about 400 kg less, feels a bit edgy / raw. Not massively fast but not exactly a slouch either and plenty for the roads. Not sure what I could replace it with really considering how cheap it is to buy and run either.

[Cold]

Too much is never enough.

[HannsG]

Yes.

[helmutlaang]

Want and need are 2 different things

[eldar]

Kind of depends on how you define fun!

I used to have a 2CV, That was fun, driving just about 100% everywhere. You need to read the road to keep momentum. Certainly not fast, but not as slow as you'd imagine.

[thrashermax]

helmutlaang said:

Want and need are 2 different things

True but I'm getting to the point where my 'wants' are being aligned with my 'needs'. There's nothing that I want anymore... Maybe I'm getting too old to chase BHP numbers?