Engine Conversion on an Import--Effect on MOT Emissions Test
Discussion
Hi all, I have a 2013 Toyota Hiace 6-seat MPV van, which I imported to the UK when I returned from Hong Kong a few years ago. This is a model that has never been sold in Europe, but it is ubiquitous throughout Asia and Australia. I had an IVA done at VOSA, and it passed easily (with a few basic mods).
However, the engine is a stinky 3.0 turbo diesel and only has 106kW (142hp) and 300Nm (221 lb-ft), which is really insufficient for what I use it for, which is driving briskly around Europe with family, bicycles and (soon) motorbike. It turns out that it is possible to fit a Lexus V8 petrol engine, which, at 213kW (290hp) and 434Nm (320 lb-ft), is a bit more like it.
I'm currently considering exactly which Lexus V8 engine to use, and I think I've settled on the 3UZ-FE model from the 2004-07 LS430/GS430, which (a) because it has been done before, I know will fit, (b) is reasonably priced and available second-hand and (c) was, according to Lexus, designed to meet Euro 4 emissions standards.
What I am not sure about is how such a conversion will affect my Hiace's MOT tests going forward. The V5C currently includes very little information (e.g., there are no emissions figures whatsoever), but I would document and inform the DVLA (and my insurer, of course) of the engine change. That means changing the CC and the Fuel Type.
What standards would future MOT stations use? When I make the exhaust system, will I need to include a cat (or two)? If Euro 4 is not sufficient, I might be able to use a later 1UR-FSE engine, but I've never heard of anyone doing so, and I don't want to be the first!
Cheers,
JZH
However, the engine is a stinky 3.0 turbo diesel and only has 106kW (142hp) and 300Nm (221 lb-ft), which is really insufficient for what I use it for, which is driving briskly around Europe with family, bicycles and (soon) motorbike. It turns out that it is possible to fit a Lexus V8 petrol engine, which, at 213kW (290hp) and 434Nm (320 lb-ft), is a bit more like it.
I'm currently considering exactly which Lexus V8 engine to use, and I think I've settled on the 3UZ-FE model from the 2004-07 LS430/GS430, which (a) because it has been done before, I know will fit, (b) is reasonably priced and available second-hand and (c) was, according to Lexus, designed to meet Euro 4 emissions standards.
What I am not sure about is how such a conversion will affect my Hiace's MOT tests going forward. The V5C currently includes very little information (e.g., there are no emissions figures whatsoever), but I would document and inform the DVLA (and my insurer, of course) of the engine change. That means changing the CC and the Fuel Type.
What standards would future MOT stations use? When I make the exhaust system, will I need to include a cat (or two)? If Euro 4 is not sufficient, I might be able to use a later 1UR-FSE engine, but I've never heard of anyone doing so, and I don't want to be the first!
Cheers,
JZH
JZH said:
What I am not sure about is how such a conversion will affect my Hiace's MOT tests going forward. The V5C currently includes very little information (e.g., there are no emissions figures whatsoever), but I would document and inform the DVLA (and my insurer, of course) of the engine change. That means changing the CC and the Fuel Type.
I'm not fully up on this, but from my understanding, is that if gone through IVA, it will have had to pass an emissions test during that process, so not sure why no data on V5?My understanding was any change of engine type/configuration (and fuel type given you're going from diesel to petrol!) would mean re-submitting for another IVA test etc once engine conversion done?
aeropilot said:
JZH said:
What I am not sure about is how such a conversion will affect my Hiace's MOT tests going forward. The V5C currently includes very little information (e.g., there are no emissions figures whatsoever), but I would document and inform the DVLA (and my insurer, of course) of the engine change. That means changing the CC and the Fuel Type.
I'm not fully up on this, but from my understanding, is that if gone through IVA, it will have had to pass an emissions test during that process, so not sure why no data on V5?My understanding was any change of engine type/configuration (and fuel type given you're going from diesel to petrol!) would mean re-submitting for another IVA test etc once engine conversion done?
300bhp/ton said:
aeropilot said:
JZH said:
What I am not sure about is how such a conversion will affect my Hiace's MOT tests going forward. The V5C currently includes very little information (e.g., there are no emissions figures whatsoever), but I would document and inform the DVLA (and my insurer, of course) of the engine change. That means changing the CC and the Fuel Type.
I'm not fully up on this, but from my understanding, is that if gone through IVA, it will have had to pass an emissions test during that process, so not sure why no data on V5?My understanding was any change of engine type/configuration (and fuel type given you're going from diesel to petrol!) would mean re-submitting for another IVA test etc once engine conversion done?
Its a minefield and I certainly don't profess to even begin to understand a lot of it.
AFAIK the engine in a vehicle presented for an IVA must past emissions tests applicable to the age of the engine. Pre 93 engines do not need cats. However once a car has passed the IVA the required emissions levels are on the V5 and those stay with the vehicle. You can change the engine, alerting the DVLA re engine size, engine number and fuel type, but the emissions requirements do not change.
Take a look at the online IVA manual and check it out for yourself.
Nice choice of engine btw, they are a favourite of mine.
Cheers,
Tony
Take a look at the online IVA manual and check it out for yourself.
Nice choice of engine btw, they are a favourite of mine.
Cheers,
Tony
140hp and 220lb ft even in a van is more than adequate for travelling across Europe. Relatively low rpm at the 110/130kph limit plus good fuel economy will be a big plus point over a 4.0petrol.
Euro couriers using similar power transits/ sprinters ect fully freighted manage fine even on the autoroute gradients.
More power can be had through a simple remap of the 3.0 diesel good for 200hp and 300lb ft..
Euro couriers using similar power transits/ sprinters ect fully freighted manage fine even on the autoroute gradients.
More power can be had through a simple remap of the 3.0 diesel good for 200hp and 300lb ft..
Thanks for the input.
Diesels are evil, so I'm afraid it has to go.
And 30 years ago (!) I swapped the 4-cylinder engine in my Porsche 914 for a 327 Chevy, so this conversion, too, will happen!
I can confirm that there is no emissions information whatsoever on the V5C:
I don't recall if the emissions were tested during the IVA procedure (no results were included on the certificate), but the current emissions spec is supposedly Euro 5, according to the Toyota HK brochure. Also, the latest MOT indicates that the "Fast Pass" procedure was used, FWIW.
The DVLA site mentions how one goes about changing a vehicle's V5C to reflect the engine capacity and fuel type, and states that documentary proof is required. I will be sure to get a receipt for the engine. The DVLA does not say that an inspection would be required to confirm the conversion, but I suppose they could ask for that after I had already invested in and performed the conversion. That is why I am investigating this now...
My understanding of the IVA procedure is that it is required in order to register a vehicle that does not have a Certificate of Conformity. This vehicle has already been registered, so what would prompt the DVLA to require the de- or re-registration of the vehicle?
A search of the "net of all things interelated" suggests that swapping an engine is not an event that triggers much DVLA interest, apart from wanting to see some paperwork confirming that the engine exists.
From the 29 June 2017 IVA Get a Pass manual:
9.2 What to check before emissions are inspected
For spark ignition engine vehicles the emissions test is based on the age of the engine.
There are different figures for different ages of the production of the engine ranging from:
The IVA standard for both spark and combustion ignition emissions is identical to the MOT standard so you can have the vehicle checked at a local MOT station before the inspection.
From what I've been able to work out, if the vehicle did need an IVA, the standard, based on the flowcharts in the 2018 IVA Manual, would be:
Carry out a CAT test
using default limits Minimum oil temp: 60C Fast Idle: (2500 to 3000rpm) CO <= 0.3% (1st Sept 02 onwards CO<= 0.2%)
HC <= 200ppm
Lambda between 0.97 and 1.03 Idle: (450 to 1500rpm) CO <=0.5% (1st Sept 02 onwards CO <= 0.3%)
The default limits quoted above are the same as those which apply to the proposed donor vehicles (2004-06 LS430 and 2006-07 GS430), which is why I have chosen them rather than the more common 1UZ-FE or the earlier 3UZ-FE engines. But I'm just guessing...
Cheers,
JZH
Diesels are evil, so I'm afraid it has to go.
And 30 years ago (!) I swapped the 4-cylinder engine in my Porsche 914 for a 327 Chevy, so this conversion, too, will happen!
I can confirm that there is no emissions information whatsoever on the V5C:
I don't recall if the emissions were tested during the IVA procedure (no results were included on the certificate), but the current emissions spec is supposedly Euro 5, according to the Toyota HK brochure. Also, the latest MOT indicates that the "Fast Pass" procedure was used, FWIW.
The DVLA site mentions how one goes about changing a vehicle's V5C to reflect the engine capacity and fuel type, and states that documentary proof is required. I will be sure to get a receipt for the engine. The DVLA does not say that an inspection would be required to confirm the conversion, but I suppose they could ask for that after I had already invested in and performed the conversion. That is why I am investigating this now...
My understanding of the IVA procedure is that it is required in order to register a vehicle that does not have a Certificate of Conformity. This vehicle has already been registered, so what would prompt the DVLA to require the de- or re-registration of the vehicle?
A search of the "net of all things interelated" suggests that swapping an engine is not an event that triggers much DVLA interest, apart from wanting to see some paperwork confirming that the engine exists.
From the 29 June 2017 IVA Get a Pass manual:
9.2 What to check before emissions are inspected
For spark ignition engine vehicles the emissions test is based on the age of the engine.
There are different figures for different ages of the production of the engine ranging from:
- a visual check for pre 1975 engines
- to a maximum of 0.2% CO, 200 ppm HC and ‘lambda’ 0.97 - 1.03 for post 1 September 2012 catalyst equipped engines
The IVA standard for both spark and combustion ignition emissions is identical to the MOT standard so you can have the vehicle checked at a local MOT station before the inspection.
From what I've been able to work out, if the vehicle did need an IVA, the standard, based on the flowcharts in the 2018 IVA Manual, would be:
Carry out a CAT test
using default limits Minimum oil temp: 60C Fast Idle: (2500 to 3000rpm) CO <= 0.3% (1st Sept 02 onwards CO<= 0.2%)
HC <= 200ppm
Lambda between 0.97 and 1.03 Idle: (450 to 1500rpm) CO <=0.5% (1st Sept 02 onwards CO <= 0.3%)
The default limits quoted above are the same as those which apply to the proposed donor vehicles (2004-06 LS430 and 2006-07 GS430), which is why I have chosen them rather than the more common 1UZ-FE or the earlier 3UZ-FE engines. But I'm just guessing...
Cheers,
JZH
After further study, here's what I think:
1. Upon changing the engine, I will need to notify the DVLA so that they can update the V5C and charge more tax. They will likely require proof of the purchase of the engine, but likely not proof that the conversion was done (which is good, because I will be doing it myself). The DVLA is unlikely to require me to have the vehicle re-inspected, and even if they did, merely changing the engine and transmission would not be sufficient to trigger the re-registration (IVA) process.
2. The vehicle will eventually need to get its annual MOT certificate. When it does, I expect that I will need to have a few discussions with the MOT tester. However, the test itself should be uneventful, because the vehicle should easily pass the Basic Emissions Test (see below).
3, Referring to the 2017 "MOT Inspection Manual -- Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing", 7.1.3, the tester will first determine whether the vehicle qualifies for a "full catalyst test", using the flow charts in section 7.3.C. There are different tests, depending on whether the vehicle is considered a "passenger car" or a "non-passenger car". "Dual Purpose Vehicles" with fewer than 13 seats (which the Hiace is) are considered Class 4 for MOT testing purposes (See section A2.2.1 of the 2019 MOT Testing Guide). However, given the age of the vehicle ("first used on or after 1 September 2002"), it does not matter for the pupose of this test whether the Hiace is a passenger car or a non-passenger car (although I think it is the latter).
4. According to the flowcharts in section 7.3.C, vehicles first used on or after 1 September 2002 need a CAT test, so (going back to section 7.1.3 for a moment), the tester will check for the presence of a catalytic converter (I plan to use two, either OEM or aftermarket). If no CAT test had been required, the tester would not have needed to check for the presence of a catalytic converter--which makes sense!
5. According to section 7.3, "Vehicles fitted with a different engine must be tested to the requirements of whichever is older, the engine or the vehicle." And "The onus is on the vehicle presenter to prove engine age." No problem, I will have a receipt (which I will endeavour to have reflect the engine serial number), and I plan to use an engine which meets the vehicle's age requirement anyway.
6. Next, also according to the flowcharts in section 7.3, pp.6 and 8, the tester will perform a Basic Emissions Test on the vehicle, using the BET limits (at fast idle, CO <= 0.2%, HC <= 200ppm. Lambda = .97 to 1.03 and at idle, CO <= 0.3%). Accordingly, this is the standard by which I am choosing the specific engine I plan to use in the conversion. However, if the vehicle does not pass the BET test, it will be put through a CAT test using the default limits (because there is no "exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book"). I'm not sure what the difference is, because, apart from checking that the oil temperature exceeds 60C, the BET and CAT tests have the same default limits...
7. As mentioned above, I plan to use an engine from a vehicle which was designed to meet the BET default emissions limits. The DVSA's 2017 "In Service Exhaust Emission Standards for Road Vehicles" contains an Annex listing emissions specifications for hundreds of UK-spec vehicles. I had planned to use an older Lexus V8 engine (1UZ-FE), but those engines, which were built from approximately 1989 through 2000, were only certified for emissions limits that were higher than those specified for the "default" test. For example, the 2000 Lexus LS400's limits were, at fast idle, CO <= 0.3%, HC <= 200ppm. Lambda = .97 to 1.03 and at idle, CO <= 0.5%.
8. In theory, I could fit an engine from a pre-1 September 2002 vehicle and, relying on the rule in section 7.3, insist that the tester use the testing procedures applicable to a pre-1 September 2002 engine instead of a 2013 vehicle. I believe that would mean that, according to the flowcharts in section 7.3 the applicable BET limits would be those of a non-CAT test (because the Hiace is a "non-passenger car"), in which the only limits tested are CO <= 3.5% and HC <= 1,200ppm. Bonus, there would be no catalytic converter(s) required, and therefore their presence (or absence) would not be checked during the MOT. Hmmm.
9. That's actually quite an attractive proposition, now that I think about it... I would have to produce some evidence of the age of the engine, but that could be as reliable as an invoice from a friendly eBay seller, could it not? It also relies quite heavily on my determination that the Hiace is a "non-passenger car", which could be questioned (because "passenger cars" of that vintage would be subject to a CAT test using the default limits mentioned above for the LS400). But, one reason why I wanted to use a later engine in the first place was because, at least as far as Lexus V8s go, the later engines are more advanced and more powerful than the earlier engines.
10. Assuming I did use a newer engine, then I would want to make sure it had been designed to meet the BET limits which would be applicable to a vehicle first used on the road in 2013 (at fast idle, CO <= 0.2%, HC <= 200ppm. Lambda = .97 to 1.03 and at idle, CO <= 0.3%). The following Lexus V8s should meet that standard (although Lexus has long claimed that its vehicles were early adopters, so others might also qualify):
2006-2011 GS430 (3UZ-FE)
2006-on LS460 (1UR-FSE)
2007-2011 GS460 (1UR-FSE)
2007-2013 IS-F (2UR-GSE)
2014-on RC-F (2UR-GSE)
2015-on GS-F (2UR-GSE)
2017-on LC500 (2UR-GSE)
11. Of these, the latter engines are very rare and way out of my price range. However, Lexus press releases from that time claim that the other 430-engined models (LS430 and SC430) also met the same standards as the GS430, so those vehicles' engines probably also meet the more stringent standards, so my revised list is:
2004-2006 LS430 (3UZ-FE)
2006-2007 GS430 (3UZ-FE)
2006-2010 SC430 (3UZ-FE) (although this model has a front-sump oil pan, which won't work for the Hiace, and would have to be replaced)
All of the above vehicles had Aisin 6-speed sequential automatic gearboxes (A761E), which should be adequate for my purposes.
That's enough for now...
Ciao,
JZH
1. Upon changing the engine, I will need to notify the DVLA so that they can update the V5C and charge more tax. They will likely require proof of the purchase of the engine, but likely not proof that the conversion was done (which is good, because I will be doing it myself). The DVLA is unlikely to require me to have the vehicle re-inspected, and even if they did, merely changing the engine and transmission would not be sufficient to trigger the re-registration (IVA) process.
2. The vehicle will eventually need to get its annual MOT certificate. When it does, I expect that I will need to have a few discussions with the MOT tester. However, the test itself should be uneventful, because the vehicle should easily pass the Basic Emissions Test (see below).
3, Referring to the 2017 "MOT Inspection Manual -- Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing", 7.1.3, the tester will first determine whether the vehicle qualifies for a "full catalyst test", using the flow charts in section 7.3.C. There are different tests, depending on whether the vehicle is considered a "passenger car" or a "non-passenger car". "Dual Purpose Vehicles" with fewer than 13 seats (which the Hiace is) are considered Class 4 for MOT testing purposes (See section A2.2.1 of the 2019 MOT Testing Guide). However, given the age of the vehicle ("first used on or after 1 September 2002"), it does not matter for the pupose of this test whether the Hiace is a passenger car or a non-passenger car (although I think it is the latter).
4. According to the flowcharts in section 7.3.C, vehicles first used on or after 1 September 2002 need a CAT test, so (going back to section 7.1.3 for a moment), the tester will check for the presence of a catalytic converter (I plan to use two, either OEM or aftermarket). If no CAT test had been required, the tester would not have needed to check for the presence of a catalytic converter--which makes sense!
5. According to section 7.3, "Vehicles fitted with a different engine must be tested to the requirements of whichever is older, the engine or the vehicle." And "The onus is on the vehicle presenter to prove engine age." No problem, I will have a receipt (which I will endeavour to have reflect the engine serial number), and I plan to use an engine which meets the vehicle's age requirement anyway.
6. Next, also according to the flowcharts in section 7.3, pp.6 and 8, the tester will perform a Basic Emissions Test on the vehicle, using the BET limits (at fast idle, CO <= 0.2%, HC <= 200ppm. Lambda = .97 to 1.03 and at idle, CO <= 0.3%). Accordingly, this is the standard by which I am choosing the specific engine I plan to use in the conversion. However, if the vehicle does not pass the BET test, it will be put through a CAT test using the default limits (because there is no "exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book"). I'm not sure what the difference is, because, apart from checking that the oil temperature exceeds 60C, the BET and CAT tests have the same default limits...
7. As mentioned above, I plan to use an engine from a vehicle which was designed to meet the BET default emissions limits. The DVSA's 2017 "In Service Exhaust Emission Standards for Road Vehicles" contains an Annex listing emissions specifications for hundreds of UK-spec vehicles. I had planned to use an older Lexus V8 engine (1UZ-FE), but those engines, which were built from approximately 1989 through 2000, were only certified for emissions limits that were higher than those specified for the "default" test. For example, the 2000 Lexus LS400's limits were, at fast idle, CO <= 0.3%, HC <= 200ppm. Lambda = .97 to 1.03 and at idle, CO <= 0.5%.
8. In theory, I could fit an engine from a pre-1 September 2002 vehicle and, relying on the rule in section 7.3, insist that the tester use the testing procedures applicable to a pre-1 September 2002 engine instead of a 2013 vehicle. I believe that would mean that, according to the flowcharts in section 7.3 the applicable BET limits would be those of a non-CAT test (because the Hiace is a "non-passenger car"), in which the only limits tested are CO <= 3.5% and HC <= 1,200ppm. Bonus, there would be no catalytic converter(s) required, and therefore their presence (or absence) would not be checked during the MOT. Hmmm.
9. That's actually quite an attractive proposition, now that I think about it... I would have to produce some evidence of the age of the engine, but that could be as reliable as an invoice from a friendly eBay seller, could it not? It also relies quite heavily on my determination that the Hiace is a "non-passenger car", which could be questioned (because "passenger cars" of that vintage would be subject to a CAT test using the default limits mentioned above for the LS400). But, one reason why I wanted to use a later engine in the first place was because, at least as far as Lexus V8s go, the later engines are more advanced and more powerful than the earlier engines.
10. Assuming I did use a newer engine, then I would want to make sure it had been designed to meet the BET limits which would be applicable to a vehicle first used on the road in 2013 (at fast idle, CO <= 0.2%, HC <= 200ppm. Lambda = .97 to 1.03 and at idle, CO <= 0.3%). The following Lexus V8s should meet that standard (although Lexus has long claimed that its vehicles were early adopters, so others might also qualify):
2006-2011 GS430 (3UZ-FE)
2006-on LS460 (1UR-FSE)
2007-2011 GS460 (1UR-FSE)
2007-2013 IS-F (2UR-GSE)
2014-on RC-F (2UR-GSE)
2015-on GS-F (2UR-GSE)
2017-on LC500 (2UR-GSE)
11. Of these, the latter engines are very rare and way out of my price range. However, Lexus press releases from that time claim that the other 430-engined models (LS430 and SC430) also met the same standards as the GS430, so those vehicles' engines probably also meet the more stringent standards, so my revised list is:
2004-2006 LS430 (3UZ-FE)
2006-2007 GS430 (3UZ-FE)
2006-2010 SC430 (3UZ-FE) (although this model has a front-sump oil pan, which won't work for the Hiace, and would have to be replaced)
All of the above vehicles had Aisin 6-speed sequential automatic gearboxes (A761E), which should be adequate for my purposes.
That's enough for now...
Ciao,
JZH
JZH said:
Sorry, I just hate diesels. But thanks for your comment!
Ciao,
JZH
Don't worry about him, you carry on! FWIW I concur with what you've found, I'd had a vague memory that the MOT tester would go by the flow chart, which should be a relatively straight-forward test to pass.Ciao,
JZH
300bhp/ton said:
JZH said:
Diesels are evil, so I'm afraid it has to go.
That's just utter nonsense and stupid thing to post tbh.Please stick a build thread up in Reader's Rides as you go, I'd love to see some progress.
Thanks, mate, I've been posting online since my Hayes 1200 baud modem was state-of-the-art; I can recognise a troll when I see one!
Anyway, I've got a "build thread" going on the Lextreme forum, as that is where I've found the best Lexus V8 engine swap information. Although calling it a "build thread" is a bit premature at this point, as I haven't yet bought or removed any parts. But I'll get there--this swap will happen.
Did I mention that I hate diesels?
Ciao,
JZH
Anyway, I've got a "build thread" going on the Lextreme forum, as that is where I've found the best Lexus V8 engine swap information. Although calling it a "build thread" is a bit premature at this point, as I haven't yet bought or removed any parts. But I'll get there--this swap will happen.
Did I mention that I hate diesels?
Ciao,
JZH
JZH said:
1. Upon changing the engine, I will need to notify the DVLA so that they can update the V5C and charge more tax. They will likely require proof of the purchase of the engine, but likely not proof that the conversion was done (which is good, because I will be doing it myself). The DVLA is unlikely to require me to have the vehicle re-inspected, and even if they did, merely changing the engine and transmission would not be sufficient to trigger the re-registration (IVA) process.
JZH
Whether it needs re-inspection is likely down to the radically altered vehicle regs I posted a link to previously.JZH
If it retains enough points, then it won't need to be inspected. However 'welding' the chassis, such as new engine mounts or cross braces may be enough for an IVA to be required. I do not know how involved the swap is.
Also all of the guidance on such modifications is very vague. Such as "modified steering", what does this mean? Is the PAS pump part of the steering for example? Will this differ on the V8 vs the diesel engine? If it does, will the DVLA want to view it as the steering meaning modified too and loosing points for that.
There really is no clear answer to any of this. And even if you phone them up, you will only get the personal opinion of the person on the phone. They will not officially agree anything is ok. As it allows them to potentially prosecute later on if they decided too.
And there is also no mechanism to officially assess if a vehicle needs an IVA or not.
I realise that upon my notification of the changed engine capacity and fuel type, the DVLA could require me to provide a form V627/1, "Built up vehicle report", but I won't know until they so notify me. If they do not notify me, then my vehicle's registration status would not change.
According to the DVLA, there is a procedure for the inspection of "Radically Altered Vehicles", here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but are not kit conversions."
1. Obviously, they don't mean that literally, because it would mean that all altered vehicles which are not kit conversions are "radically altered vehicles", but there is no public definition of what makes an altered vehicle a radically altered vehicle, AFAIK.
2. If the altered vehicle (which is not a kit conversion) is considered to be a "radically altered vehicle", then it must be re-registered and inspected as part of that procedure.
3. It appears that the "point system" mentioned therein relates only to whether the re-registered vehicle is allowed to retain its previous registration mark, not whether it is considered to be a "radically altered vehicle" in the first place. (My conversion would get 11 points under that test anyway, as the only components being altered or modified are the engine and transmission--engine mounts will be bolted onto the chassis, in place of the original mounts, which are removable, so there would not be any modification of the original chassis.)
The DVLA's guidance publication INF 26 (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/327425/response/797620/attach/2/INF26.pdf) says this about "radically altered vehicles":
"Vehicles that have been radically altered
This covers vehicles which are radically altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions.
In these cases, the vehicle components from the original vehicle will be given a number of points. To keep the original registration number, the vehicle must have eight or more points, which must include the original or new unmodified chassis or monocoque bodyshell.
If the vehicle has less than eight points, a second-hand or altered chassis, frame or monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must have IVA, SVA or MSVA, whichever is appropriate, so that it can be registered. A ‘Q’ registration number will then be issued, (see section 7.)
The following points will be given to the original major components used.
If there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (also known as “Cut and Shut”), IVA, SVA or MSVA will be required. A ‘Q’ registration number will then be issued."
The guidance is interesting, because it seems to confirm that an IVA, SVA or MSVA would only be required if the changes made to the vehicle were such that the vehicle could no longer use its original registration number. But what the DVLA will do in any given situation continues to be a big unknown.
I have searched online extensively, however, and I have never seen any accounts of an engine swap/conversion alone triggering the de-registration of a vehicle and the DVLA requiring the modified vehicle to be inspected and re-registered as a "radically altered vehicle". So even the anecdotal evidence is lacking. Most DVLA-related engine swap stories seem to be related to proving what the new components are, hence the request for reciepts and invoices.
Ciao,
JZH
According to the DVLA, there is a procedure for the inspection of "Radically Altered Vehicles", here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but are not kit conversions."
1. Obviously, they don't mean that literally, because it would mean that all altered vehicles which are not kit conversions are "radically altered vehicles", but there is no public definition of what makes an altered vehicle a radically altered vehicle, AFAIK.
2. If the altered vehicle (which is not a kit conversion) is considered to be a "radically altered vehicle", then it must be re-registered and inspected as part of that procedure.
3. It appears that the "point system" mentioned therein relates only to whether the re-registered vehicle is allowed to retain its previous registration mark, not whether it is considered to be a "radically altered vehicle" in the first place. (My conversion would get 11 points under that test anyway, as the only components being altered or modified are the engine and transmission--engine mounts will be bolted onto the chassis, in place of the original mounts, which are removable, so there would not be any modification of the original chassis.)
The DVLA's guidance publication INF 26 (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/327425/response/797620/attach/2/INF26.pdf) says this about "radically altered vehicles":
"Vehicles that have been radically altered
This covers vehicles which are radically altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions.
In these cases, the vehicle components from the original vehicle will be given a number of points. To keep the original registration number, the vehicle must have eight or more points, which must include the original or new unmodified chassis or monocoque bodyshell.
If the vehicle has less than eight points, a second-hand or altered chassis, frame or monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must have IVA, SVA or MSVA, whichever is appropriate, so that it can be registered. A ‘Q’ registration number will then be issued, (see section 7.)
The following points will be given to the original major components used.
- Chassis or monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) (original or new)* 5
- Suspension (front & back) 2
- Axles (both) 2
- Transmission 2
- Steering assembly 2
- Engine 1
* Direct replacement from the manufacturers
If there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (also known as “Cut and Shut”), IVA, SVA or MSVA will be required. A ‘Q’ registration number will then be issued."
The guidance is interesting, because it seems to confirm that an IVA, SVA or MSVA would only be required if the changes made to the vehicle were such that the vehicle could no longer use its original registration number. But what the DVLA will do in any given situation continues to be a big unknown.
I have searched online extensively, however, and I have never seen any accounts of an engine swap/conversion alone triggering the de-registration of a vehicle and the DVLA requiring the modified vehicle to be inspected and re-registered as a "radically altered vehicle". So even the anecdotal evidence is lacking. Most DVLA-related engine swap stories seem to be related to proving what the new components are, hence the request for reciepts and invoices.
Ciao,
JZH
In summary, the big question is: would an engine and transmission swap alone trigger the de-registration/re-registration and inspection of the vehicle?
By sorting changes into two categories the DVLA's website *suggests* that it would not:
"Changes you need to update
You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:
You must also update your V5C if you change any of the following:
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registra...
The DVLA's guidance publication INF 26 ("Guidelines on how you can register kit cars and rebuilt or radically altered vehicles") mentions that it is primarily changes that "affect the vehicle's identity" which cause the DVLA's concern:
"However, sometimes a vehicle needs to be rebuilt or it is radically altered and this can affect the identity of the vehicle – is it the original vehicle which has been repaired, or have so many new or different parts been used that the original vehicle no longer exists?
When giving a registration number to a rebuilt vehicle or radically altered vehicle our main priority is to decide whether or not the vehicle is newly built with no previously registered identity (in its present form). Vehicles which have been substantially rebuilt or altered from the manufacturers original specification need to be examined at a DVLA local office who will check the vehicle record and history."
I really don't see how changing a vehicle's engine and transmission could realistically be considered to "change the vehicle's identity" in the sense the DVLA appears to be referring to. In the case of my Hiace, the original vehicle would obviously still exist; indeed, the only way to tell that the vehicle will have been modified at all would be to lift the passenger seat and have a gander (apart from hearing it run, of course!) I may even keep the single tail pipe...
Re-registration wouldn't be the end of the world, of course, because the same vehicle (albeit with a different engine and transmission) passed an IVA when it was imported in 2014, but this would obviously be best avoided if possible. Wish me luck!
Ciao,
JZH
By sorting changes into two categories the DVLA's website *suggests* that it would not:
"Changes you need to update
You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:
- colour
- engine
- cylinder capacity (cc)
- fuel type
- chassis or bodyshell (replaced or modified)
- seating capacity
- weight of a large vehicle, for example goods vehicle or campervan
You must also update your V5C if you change any of the following:
- wheel plan
- body type, for example you convert a van to a campervan or ’motor caravan’ (DVLA gives a body type description based on the vehicle’s external appearance)
- vehicle identification number (VIN)
- chassis number
- frame number for motorbikes
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registra...
The DVLA's guidance publication INF 26 ("Guidelines on how you can register kit cars and rebuilt or radically altered vehicles") mentions that it is primarily changes that "affect the vehicle's identity" which cause the DVLA's concern:
"However, sometimes a vehicle needs to be rebuilt or it is radically altered and this can affect the identity of the vehicle – is it the original vehicle which has been repaired, or have so many new or different parts been used that the original vehicle no longer exists?
When giving a registration number to a rebuilt vehicle or radically altered vehicle our main priority is to decide whether or not the vehicle is newly built with no previously registered identity (in its present form). Vehicles which have been substantially rebuilt or altered from the manufacturers original specification need to be examined at a DVLA local office who will check the vehicle record and history."
I really don't see how changing a vehicle's engine and transmission could realistically be considered to "change the vehicle's identity" in the sense the DVLA appears to be referring to. In the case of my Hiace, the original vehicle would obviously still exist; indeed, the only way to tell that the vehicle will have been modified at all would be to lift the passenger seat and have a gander (apart from hearing it run, of course!) I may even keep the single tail pipe...
Re-registration wouldn't be the end of the world, of course, because the same vehicle (albeit with a different engine and transmission) passed an IVA when it was imported in 2014, but this would obviously be best avoided if possible. Wish me luck!
Ciao,
JZH
<time passes>
Okay, it hasn't happened. Yet...
Hard to believe that the above was posted almost six years ago, and not only have I not moved the project significantly forward, I have actually gone a bit sideways--to the extent that I have now swerved into the lane of using a completely different (non-Toyota) engine and (manual) gearbox.
(I note that the MOT Inspection Manual has been updated since 2019 and now says that a converted vehicle should be tested based on its model year, not on the engine's model year. But even back in 2019 I had planned to use an engine which would have complied with the chassis' model year, rather than the engine's, so that change isn't relevant in this case.)
The current problem I have is that the engine I now most want to use also comes from a pre-2011 model vehicle and is therefore only rated Euro 4, and, being a 2013 the van (if it had been petrol-powered) would have been required to pass Euro 5 (petrol) emissions standards...
However, looking at the emissions figures on the Vehicle Certification Agency's "fuel consumption and emissions information" database (which includes disclaimers about its accuracy) I can see that the emissions figures applicable to the particular Euro 4 engine I want to use should actually meet Euro 5 emissions standards. And, because Euro 5 and Euro 6 emissions standards are basically the same (for petrol engines), and because the UK MOT emissions test is essentially a test to Euro 6 standards...it <i>should</i> still pass the MOT test.
(https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx)
I'm still checking engine dimensions vs engine bay dimensions (not to mention electronics integration issues) before I pull the trigger and acquire the engine. I've gone back and forth on this, but because engine management and theft prevention electronics are so interrelated in modern vehicles, I think it will be worth the additional cost of buying a complete donor vehicle, rather than trying to buy the engine, wiring harness, ECU, immobiliser? etc. separately.
Hopefully, it won't be another six years before my next post!
Ciao,
JZH
Okay, it hasn't happened. Yet...
Hard to believe that the above was posted almost six years ago, and not only have I not moved the project significantly forward, I have actually gone a bit sideways--to the extent that I have now swerved into the lane of using a completely different (non-Toyota) engine and (manual) gearbox.
(I note that the MOT Inspection Manual has been updated since 2019 and now says that a converted vehicle should be tested based on its model year, not on the engine's model year. But even back in 2019 I had planned to use an engine which would have complied with the chassis' model year, rather than the engine's, so that change isn't relevant in this case.)
The current problem I have is that the engine I now most want to use also comes from a pre-2011 model vehicle and is therefore only rated Euro 4, and, being a 2013 the van (if it had been petrol-powered) would have been required to pass Euro 5 (petrol) emissions standards...
However, looking at the emissions figures on the Vehicle Certification Agency's "fuel consumption and emissions information" database (which includes disclaimers about its accuracy) I can see that the emissions figures applicable to the particular Euro 4 engine I want to use should actually meet Euro 5 emissions standards. And, because Euro 5 and Euro 6 emissions standards are basically the same (for petrol engines), and because the UK MOT emissions test is essentially a test to Euro 6 standards...it <i>should</i> still pass the MOT test.
(https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx)
I'm still checking engine dimensions vs engine bay dimensions (not to mention electronics integration issues) before I pull the trigger and acquire the engine. I've gone back and forth on this, but because engine management and theft prevention electronics are so interrelated in modern vehicles, I think it will be worth the additional cost of buying a complete donor vehicle, rather than trying to buy the engine, wiring harness, ECU, immobiliser? etc. separately.
Hopefully, it won't be another six years before my next post!
Ciao,
JZH
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