RE: Czinger 21C sets new Laguna Seca record
Friday 6th August 2021
Czinger 21C sets new Laguna Seca record
'What's that?' you might think. You'll want to find out...
Remember the Czinger 21C we talked about earlier last year? Possibly not - it's yet another superfast hypercar coming out of nowhere, although we did get to see it driving on the road, which makes a nice change to most of the concept images we see appearing and then disappearing from motor shows.
To refresh your memory, the supercar comprises a 2.9-litre, twin-turbo V8 in the middle and a pair of electric motors up front. That claims a 0-62mph time of 1.9 seconds, 0-186mph-0 in 15 seconds and 0-248mph-0 in 29 seconds, all with an 11,000rpm redline.
Well it isn't all mouth and no trousers, because the 21C has now set a new lap record at the Laguna Seca Raceway in California. Under "ideal conditions" of a 9mph NW wind direction and air temperature of 15.5deg Celcius, the 21C recorded a lap time of 1.25:44, knocking a crazy two seconds off the previous lap record. That time was held by the McLaren Senna, but even the Czinger's two practice laps manage to wipe it off the leaderboard. The car was running on fully road legal Michelin Pilot sport Cup 2R tyres and driven by Joel Miller.
The production of the 21C will be limited to just 80 cars, all kicking out 1,250hp and designed to use a range of fuels, including methanol and e-fuels, meaning it can be run as a zero-emissions vehicle. It's basically a Nissan Leaf, just blowing much more quickly in the wind...
Discussion
Perhaps those with more knowledge of racing can comment but a 2 second improvement for on paper a 50% power advantage over the Senna doesn’t sound huge. That might be because of the track and it would be higher elsewhere.
Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
I guess to get a faster lap time, you have to press the car down more. Creating downforce increases the weight of the car at speed, so, create more downforce, then you need more power to push the car forward.
I wonder at what point the downforce/power relationship becomes so ridiculous that it makes no sense.
I wonder at what point the downforce/power relationship becomes so ridiculous that it makes no sense.
Esceptico said:
Perhaps those with more knowledge of racing can comment but a 2 second improvement for on paper a 50% power advantage over the Senna doesn’t sound huge.
I imagine the increased downforce means there's more weight for the engine to shift at speed. I'd be interested to see what effect downforce happens to the power-to-weight ratio at speed.Esceptico said:
I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
I don't suppose they had the Bristol multi-storey carpark in mind when they designed this!Esceptico said:
Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
I'd regard this a 'successor' to the Caparo T1 or as a BAC Mono turned up to 12.As for the doors, photos on the web indicate it has dihedral doors.
Worth noting that a proper race car goes around the place in between 1:05 and 1:10, so this is still miles off that pace, as you would expect on road tyres.
Basically, all modern hyper cars are not completely tyre limited. You can pour as much power and Downforce as you like at them, but given a few seconds here and there, they'll all go the same speed because they are all on the same tyres.........
Basically, all modern hyper cars are not completely tyre limited. You can pour as much power and Downforce as you like at them, but given a few seconds here and there, they'll all go the same speed because they are all on the same tyres.........
Esceptico said:
Perhaps those with more knowledge of racing can comment but a 2 second improvement for on paper a 50% power advantage over the Senna doesn’t sound huge. That might be because of the track and it would be higher elsewhere.
Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
It's not impressive at all and more indicative of the abysmal state of the uneducated mainstream auto media that routinely drops the ball on a number of absurd PR-claims, ranging from Gordon Murray using "Gordon weight" to EV-makers selling overpowered EVs with 7-15 minutes runtime followed hour long charging times.Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
In this farcical edition of "the lazy auto media doesn't care" Lambo, Viper and Pagani all set "records" with underhanded methods using super soft tyre compounds and modified cars and then Porsche polished some records of their own by using Cup 2R in a slightly more open but equally manipulative fashion (Cup 2R shaves roughly two seconds off a minute lap compared to the far more practical Cup 2 and Trofeo R). And now it's Czinger's turn to wow the world with Michelin's improvements plus some extras. This record for example then is composed of an approx 3 second gain from a simple tyre swap (Cup 2R instead of the Senna's Trofeo R) and then some additional time, say a couple of seconds or more, from manufacturer optimized lap times vs independent testing. If all equal, this thing is probably at least a second or two slower than the Senna and on par with the 918, P1, LaFerrari and performance kitted GT2 RS and AMG GT Black Series. They claim they can shave a couple of more seconds though so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 VS Cup 2 R - How Much FASTER is the Cup 2 R?
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R VS Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperSport RS VS Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R - Tested
Esceptico said:
Perhaps those with more knowledge of racing can comment but a 2 second improvement for on paper a 50% power advantage over the Senna doesn’t sound huge. That might be because of the track and it would be higher elsewhere.
Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
Interesting technically but doesn’t come across as much of a road car. I wonder how you get in and out (like in a single seater)?
What is rather interesting for me to see is the poor level of preparation when it comes to put the run actually on tarmac.
Ok, so there was some simulation work going on. But if you are running serious simulation runs and prepare your car for the record attempt, there shouldn't be big gains in lap times. Maybe 0,1 - 0,3 seconds on a track that short.
Here are improvements in the range of 1 second within each lap, total run of 3 laps. Either the driver never drove on the track or the record preparation was just poor. What would happen, if they continue driving? I think the lap will drop further.
This is somehow unprofessional, on a circuit being that short.
So there is more to come from this car, I guess.
Just as a reference, when Porsche is doing record run attempts on the Nordschleife, they are within 0,1 - 1,5 seconds with different drivers from lap to lap on a total lap time that is around the 7 minutes mark.
Ok, so there was some simulation work going on. But if you are running serious simulation runs and prepare your car for the record attempt, there shouldn't be big gains in lap times. Maybe 0,1 - 0,3 seconds on a track that short.
Here are improvements in the range of 1 second within each lap, total run of 3 laps. Either the driver never drove on the track or the record preparation was just poor. What would happen, if they continue driving? I think the lap will drop further.
This is somehow unprofessional, on a circuit being that short.
So there is more to come from this car, I guess.
Just as a reference, when Porsche is doing record run attempts on the Nordschleife, they are within 0,1 - 1,5 seconds with different drivers from lap to lap on a total lap time that is around the 7 minutes mark.
Hairymonster said:
I imagine the increased downforce means there's more weight for the engine to shift at speed. I'd be interested to see what effect downforce happens to the power-to-weight ratio at speed.
Not quite, the power to weight (power to mass if you want to be technical) ratio won't increase with downforce. It is true that increased downforce will come with increased aerodynamic drag (and some increase in mechanical friction due to greater loading on wheel bearings and drive train) and this affects the car greater at higher speeds, however circuit racing is usually won in the corners and the accelerations and decelerations between them rather than by V-Max, which is why the fastest cars are pretty much just a collection of wings, spoilers, diffusers and ducts with an engine in the middle.
I totally agree that knocking a couple of seconds off the Senna's time isn't that impressive considering the, frankly astonishing, acceleration figures (0-186mph-0 in 15s is mind-blowing if accurate) and that it's a single-seater. Or maybe, the Senna is just really that good (despite the constant whinging about McLaren on here)!
I agree with a previous poster that it is their manufacturing technology - which this car is intended to showcase - where the really amazing stuff is. They are able to produce incredibly lightweight parts even for small production runs with tremendous flexibility. I imagine lots of manufacturers will be adopting this technology over time.
I agree with a previous poster that it is their manufacturing technology - which this car is intended to showcase - where the really amazing stuff is. They are able to produce incredibly lightweight parts even for small production runs with tremendous flexibility. I imagine lots of manufacturers will be adopting this technology over time.
MCBrowncoat said:
the-sharpener said:
not the bothered by the supercar
however
has anyone ever timed a Laguna around Laguna seca
Or an Opel Monza round Monza?however
has anyone ever timed a Laguna around Laguna seca
Or a Pontiac Le Mans round Le Mans?
Or a Maserati Kyalami round Kyalami?
Someone has definitely taken a Suzuki round Suzuka...
Or a Lamborghini Jarama around Jarama.
Or a Maserati Sebring around Sebring.
Or a Bedford van around Bedford.
thegreenhell said:
MCBrowncoat said:
the-sharpener said:
not the bothered by the supercar
however
has anyone ever timed a Laguna around Laguna seca
Or an Opel Monza round Monza?however
has anyone ever timed a Laguna around Laguna seca
Or a Pontiac Le Mans round Le Mans?
Or a Maserati Kyalami round Kyalami?
Someone has definitely taken a Suzuki round Suzuka...
Or a Lamborghini Jarama around Jarama.
Or a Maserati Sebring around Sebring.
Or a Bedford van around Bedford.
There seems to be a bit of a glut of hypercars at the moment. Can be a bit difficult to raise enthusiasm for yet another ker-czinger!
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