Modern Cars are an Obese Short Life Piece of Junk, Discuss
Discussion
I have a dead Whale in my workshop. A Vauxhall Insignia CDTI Whale blocking all entry to my canal-side unit. A navy blue one, born in 2010.
The usual 'low engine oil pressure' warning flashed on the TV screen just before its demise. An unhappy engine ECU elected to drop engine power at just the same moment as she started overtaking two HGVs.
Nearly killing my niece, her dog and sister too. Nice programming GM. Computer Says No! Expensive engine must be saved!
As a mechanic, I can tell you that a modern car breakdown in heavy traffic, even with over forty years practice of helping vehicles help themselves limp to safety, it can quickly turn into a horrible experience.
You don't even have the starter as an auxiliary engine to get you off the carriageway. The need to fully press the clutch pedal before it'll turn the engine, scuppers that.
And don't even mention the electronic 'hand' brake. In the old Citroen BX, the front brake callipers were linked to the truly great handbrake. This gave the driver a decent brake enabling you to concentrate on clutch/accelerator to keep an ailing engine spinning just long enough.
The bodged oil seal 'design' on the pump pick up pipe failure was the predictable cause of why the Whale died. Or at least part of it.
Engine ruined: crankshaft bearings having spun and trashed the block. Beyond economic repair. Unwanted and worthless. Throughout its life, this car was nursed and loved. With around 2k miles between each MOT if it were a Honda, it could easily be still worth £4k. By 2024 old Hondas will be worth more than new ones. They already are in Peterborough.
Bodywork and interior on the Whale are still flawless. A £30 valet and a personal plate (SP3 RMY) and it would look like, well a shiny navy-blue Insignia.
Full leather interior too, I may well fit those front seats to my BMW E36 Touring.
The car, like any other modern Whale, is a lump. Packed with safety things, driver aids and comfort features it weighs nearly as much as two Citroen BX 19RD diesels. So the energy when you plough into the crash is four times as much as the slim French car from two or three generations earlier. GM genuinely tried to trim the mass with some beautiful alloy suspension components and two plastic headlight units.
Cray computer time designed the bodyshell with precision engineering and mind-blowingly skilful metallurgy go into the mix to shed every unnecessary gram of tinwork.
But those 1,700 Kg are also behind why this Insignia is sat here. The diesel crankshaft is fragile - to save weight - so the low oil pressure which would've been shrugged off by the BX, wasn't the case with the GM. A huge laundrette motor of an alternator, a 26 Kg battery, 18" alloys with each tyre weighing more than a BXs complete wheel/tyre assy.
A big DPF & 47 Kg exhaust system, crash bars, airbags, cable ties, it goes on and on. Huge brakes to haul the mass and ABS to help any unskilled drivers. Thick glass, bonded to aid bodyshell torsional stiffness and isolate the occupants from other vehicles.
So the entire car is a conspiracy designed to kill its prime mover. A Six-Speed Gearbox: really?
The stainless steel 1.4 pence brake pad anti-rattle clips also plotted. The N/S one had caused a pad to stick, loading the poor Whale's heart even more. If your pads don't rattle without them, leave them, or at least the top one, off the car. I've seen a few cars with crankshaft failure from binding brakes.
Even the carpets are heavy!
And for the twenty-four grand the poor original keeper splashed out on his last ever car, all he would have gotten back is a measly 1.25% which his retirement present cost him, just 13 years ago. Luckily he cashed out early and saw an 8% return in 2021...
When I manage to wheel the Whale to the back of my unit, I will have a very posh tearoom to admire the Suzuki A100 I am restoring from.
1969 made in Japan 98cc 2-stroke. 110 mpg 9.5bhp 70mph and best of all: 80kg. I wish the Japanese would stop killing Whales, by the way.
The usual 'low engine oil pressure' warning flashed on the TV screen just before its demise. An unhappy engine ECU elected to drop engine power at just the same moment as she started overtaking two HGVs.
Nearly killing my niece, her dog and sister too. Nice programming GM. Computer Says No! Expensive engine must be saved!
As a mechanic, I can tell you that a modern car breakdown in heavy traffic, even with over forty years practice of helping vehicles help themselves limp to safety, it can quickly turn into a horrible experience.
You don't even have the starter as an auxiliary engine to get you off the carriageway. The need to fully press the clutch pedal before it'll turn the engine, scuppers that.
And don't even mention the electronic 'hand' brake. In the old Citroen BX, the front brake callipers were linked to the truly great handbrake. This gave the driver a decent brake enabling you to concentrate on clutch/accelerator to keep an ailing engine spinning just long enough.
The bodged oil seal 'design' on the pump pick up pipe failure was the predictable cause of why the Whale died. Or at least part of it.
Engine ruined: crankshaft bearings having spun and trashed the block. Beyond economic repair. Unwanted and worthless. Throughout its life, this car was nursed and loved. With around 2k miles between each MOT if it were a Honda, it could easily be still worth £4k. By 2024 old Hondas will be worth more than new ones. They already are in Peterborough.
Bodywork and interior on the Whale are still flawless. A £30 valet and a personal plate (SP3 RMY) and it would look like, well a shiny navy-blue Insignia.
Full leather interior too, I may well fit those front seats to my BMW E36 Touring.
The car, like any other modern Whale, is a lump. Packed with safety things, driver aids and comfort features it weighs nearly as much as two Citroen BX 19RD diesels. So the energy when you plough into the crash is four times as much as the slim French car from two or three generations earlier. GM genuinely tried to trim the mass with some beautiful alloy suspension components and two plastic headlight units.
Cray computer time designed the bodyshell with precision engineering and mind-blowingly skilful metallurgy go into the mix to shed every unnecessary gram of tinwork.
But those 1,700 Kg are also behind why this Insignia is sat here. The diesel crankshaft is fragile - to save weight - so the low oil pressure which would've been shrugged off by the BX, wasn't the case with the GM. A huge laundrette motor of an alternator, a 26 Kg battery, 18" alloys with each tyre weighing more than a BXs complete wheel/tyre assy.
A big DPF & 47 Kg exhaust system, crash bars, airbags, cable ties, it goes on and on. Huge brakes to haul the mass and ABS to help any unskilled drivers. Thick glass, bonded to aid bodyshell torsional stiffness and isolate the occupants from other vehicles.
So the entire car is a conspiracy designed to kill its prime mover. A Six-Speed Gearbox: really?
The stainless steel 1.4 pence brake pad anti-rattle clips also plotted. The N/S one had caused a pad to stick, loading the poor Whale's heart even more. If your pads don't rattle without them, leave them, or at least the top one, off the car. I've seen a few cars with crankshaft failure from binding brakes.
Even the carpets are heavy!
And for the twenty-four grand the poor original keeper splashed out on his last ever car, all he would have gotten back is a measly 1.25% which his retirement present cost him, just 13 years ago. Luckily he cashed out early and saw an 8% return in 2021...
When I manage to wheel the Whale to the back of my unit, I will have a very posh tearoom to admire the Suzuki A100 I am restoring from.
1969 made in Japan 98cc 2-stroke. 110 mpg 9.5bhp 70mph and best of all: 80kg. I wish the Japanese would stop killing Whales, by the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXYKGcutI6A
That video made me feel slightly less bad about paying £395 per year RFL for a teenage VAG product built it the 90s. Recent failures have been electrical, crank sensor, cruise control pedal switch and aircon actuator.
I owned a two stroke Suzuki motorcycle in my youth.
That video made me feel slightly less bad about paying £395 per year RFL for a teenage VAG product built it the 90s. Recent failures have been electrical, crank sensor, cruise control pedal switch and aircon actuator.
I owned a two stroke Suzuki motorcycle in my youth.
I hear everything in the op, cars are just white goods now, and all the over the top safety things, if you want to stop people crashing, have a spike coming out of the steeringwheel, not an airbag, instant death, people wouldnt crash then.
Also add in the cost of spares and difficulty getting them, new cars are obsolite before they role of the line, add to that cheap money, when was the last time you saw an old banger on the road? and you drove them acordingly, my first car cost £50, and i could see the road moving if i lifted the carpet. if i had crashed that i would have died, so i didnt. but i kept it going for penuts for a year or so, not so a new car, a single fault with some not needed system, which also can stop the car working, may cost thousands to fix.
peek cars i think were early 2000,s , not to many useless add ons, cheap, fixable. but that dosnt sell wahjing machines/cars tho.
Also add in the cost of spares and difficulty getting them, new cars are obsolite before they role of the line, add to that cheap money, when was the last time you saw an old banger on the road? and you drove them acordingly, my first car cost £50, and i could see the road moving if i lifted the carpet. if i had crashed that i would have died, so i didnt. but i kept it going for penuts for a year or so, not so a new car, a single fault with some not needed system, which also can stop the car working, may cost thousands to fix.
peek cars i think were early 2000,s , not to many useless add ons, cheap, fixable. but that dosnt sell wahjing machines/cars tho.
They’re all disposable goods these days. An analogy I use for the how we see the motorcar is the progression of the personal computer.
When the home PC became popular in the late 70s/80s there was much excitement. Yes, they were relatively expensive but they tended to be cherished. They were also heavily modded by those in the know. The kids started tearing them apart, learning how they worked. Those who didn’t understand them looked after them because of the cost to replace one was high.
Over a relatively short amount of time they have become so affordable that the vast majority of people simply throw them away when they fail or are superseded by a better model. This has all happened within my lifetime. It’s taken the car somewhat longer to get there but it’s now in a similar situation.
A young woman who lives down the road from me bought a new BMW 2 series convertible on finance two years ago. She was so excited to get it home. I saw the car when it was delivered. All her friends were crowding round, so impressed with her shiny new German toy. Two years on one of the wing mirrors is hanging off, it has scratches all over it, hasn’t been washed for over a year. It generally looks ready for the scrap heap. It’s very sad to see.
Cars now are designed to be safe, smooth to drive and packed with all the technology you’d use in the home. Add into that extreme affordability through PCP etc. and you now have a commodity that’s pretty much obsolete three years after purchase. The whole situation certainly isn’t being helped by global warming and the demonisation of the car.
To bring back the PC analogy, us petrolheads are like those people who still build, mod and cherish their own computers. Our numbers will sadly dwindle over time but we’re still clinging on for dear life.
When the home PC became popular in the late 70s/80s there was much excitement. Yes, they were relatively expensive but they tended to be cherished. They were also heavily modded by those in the know. The kids started tearing them apart, learning how they worked. Those who didn’t understand them looked after them because of the cost to replace one was high.
Over a relatively short amount of time they have become so affordable that the vast majority of people simply throw them away when they fail or are superseded by a better model. This has all happened within my lifetime. It’s taken the car somewhat longer to get there but it’s now in a similar situation.
A young woman who lives down the road from me bought a new BMW 2 series convertible on finance two years ago. She was so excited to get it home. I saw the car when it was delivered. All her friends were crowding round, so impressed with her shiny new German toy. Two years on one of the wing mirrors is hanging off, it has scratches all over it, hasn’t been washed for over a year. It generally looks ready for the scrap heap. It’s very sad to see.
Cars now are designed to be safe, smooth to drive and packed with all the technology you’d use in the home. Add into that extreme affordability through PCP etc. and you now have a commodity that’s pretty much obsolete three years after purchase. The whole situation certainly isn’t being helped by global warming and the demonisation of the car.
To bring back the PC analogy, us petrolheads are like those people who still build, mod and cherish their own computers. Our numbers will sadly dwindle over time but we’re still clinging on for dear life.
I am old enough to remember people in the late Sixties saying much the same thing - cars are all the same , terribly built , not like they used to be and the usual dirge of nostalgia for a halcyon era which never actually existed . White goods- apart from the fact that is what most folk want their car to be , what was so memorable about HA Vivas ,Datsun Cherries , early Honda Civics , Fiestas and Renault 5s ? At least their modern equivalents don't rust after a year , lose their synchromesh and need decoking at 30k miles and an oil change every 3 k miles . Economy ? My 1300 Escort GT did about 30mpg on a good day and my dad's Rover 3 litre low 20s - for 105mph and 0-60 in 14 seconds .
And while I love the look and sound of an Austin Healey 3000 , at least a Z4's steering column won't impale you if you hit something solid .
I adore many cars from the Sixties - Elan , Cooper S , Duetto, 105 Alfa , Miura, Gordon Keeble and many more but the reality is that most cars then were as dull as the cars from every decade since have been . But now they break less , use much less fuel and don't kill their occupants anything like as often .
And while I love the look and sound of an Austin Healey 3000 , at least a Z4's steering column won't impale you if you hit something solid .
I adore many cars from the Sixties - Elan , Cooper S , Duetto, 105 Alfa , Miura, Gordon Keeble and many more but the reality is that most cars then were as dull as the cars from every decade since have been . But now they break less , use much less fuel and don't kill their occupants anything like as often .
As the OP writes, the oil pickup seal failure is a well known fault on these engines, why did he not replace it for his niece and pre-empt the failure.
The oil light starts to flash on cold starts long before the seal fails completely giving plenty of warning that something is amiss. The seal costs less than £20, can be awkward to fit though due to inaccessible sump bolts depending on the transmission fitted, which is stupid.
I do agree with the rest of his post, for the most part, cars are now disposable appliances with multiple failure points due to inferior materials and questionable packaging.
The oil light starts to flash on cold starts long before the seal fails completely giving plenty of warning that something is amiss. The seal costs less than £20, can be awkward to fit though due to inaccessible sump bolts depending on the transmission fitted, which is stupid.
I do agree with the rest of his post, for the most part, cars are now disposable appliances with multiple failure points due to inferior materials and questionable packaging.
kev b said:
As the OP writes, the oil pickup seal failure is a well known fault on these engines, why did he not replace it for his niece and pre-empt the failure.
The oil light starts to flash on cold starts long before the seal fails completely giving plenty of warning that something is amiss. The seal costs less than £20, can be awkward to fit though due to inaccessible sump bolts depending on the transmission fitted, which is stupid.
I do agree with the rest of his post, for the most part, cars are now disposable appliances with multiple failure points due to inferior materials and questionable packaging.
Given his niece would have been driving the car, did you let her know this important piece of info ahead of time, or would she have thought the oil light starting to flash was 'just some flashing thingy on the dashboard that stops after a while' like my Mrs and most other women I know who drive would have done?The oil light starts to flash on cold starts long before the seal fails completely giving plenty of warning that something is amiss. The seal costs less than £20, can be awkward to fit though due to inaccessible sump bolts depending on the transmission fitted, which is stupid.
I do agree with the rest of his post, for the most part, cars are now disposable appliances with multiple failure points due to inferior materials and questionable packaging.
As for "Modern Cars are an Obese Short Life Piece of Junk" - absolutely OP, cut-off for me is around 2005 in terms of what I feel comfortable owning/maintaining, anything older than that is effectively a computer-on-wheels that will no doubt go horrifically wrong at some point and cost the Third World debt to repair; no big issue for your average Land Rover owner/driver, but yeah not my idea of fun.
So the cheap part that's a known weak point which gives plenty of flashing warning lights prior to its failure, ultimately failed with the expected and inevitably catastrophic consequences. But the rest of the car is in great shape?
So what you're saying is after 13 years this modern car, if it had had a £20 replacement seal some time around when the oil light kept flashing when cold, would have still been in great shape and doubtless gone on for many many more comfortable, safe, economical miles as it was designed to and is capable of?
So what you're saying is after 13 years this modern car, if it had had a £20 replacement seal some time around when the oil light kept flashing when cold, would have still been in great shape and doubtless gone on for many many more comfortable, safe, economical miles as it was designed to and is capable of?
SturdyHSV said:
So the cheap part that's a known weak point which gives plenty of flashing warning lights prior to its failure, ultimately failed with the expected and inevitably catastrophic consequences. But the rest of the car is in great shape?
So what you're saying is after 13 years this modern car, if it had had a £20 replacement seal some time around when the oil light kept flashing when cold, would have still been in great shape and doubtless gone on for many many more comfortable, safe, economical miles as it was designed to and is capable of?
ExactlySo what you're saying is after 13 years this modern car, if it had had a £20 replacement seal some time around when the oil light kept flashing when cold, would have still been in great shape and doubtless gone on for many many more comfortable, safe, economical miles as it was designed to and is capable of?
Sorry but this seems like a horrible example, anyone with even an ounce of common sense at least Google’s / takes there car to someone who know what they are doing when an oil engine management light comes.
Most car have terminal illnesses if you completely ignore obvious issues until they blow up.
Most car have terminal illnesses if you completely ignore obvious issues until they blow up.
A fascinating thread. Without getting into the ‘£20 oil pick up seal ‘ discussion, I wonder if it now impossible to design and market a basic car? I know that legislation and the search for fuel economy have hampered this .Does anyone out there in the industry know whether it is feasible to make something like (say) a rustproofed Renault 4?
My first car in 1992 was a 1985 Mark 3 Ford Escort 1.1 Popular. It was only seven years old but it was already pretty much end of life. It had a four speed gearbox, no power steering, manual everything and every weekend I would scrape off the rust and paint it with Hammerite.
My current car is a 2011 Renault Megane 1.4 TCE. It has zero rust, a six speed gearbox, gives far better MPG than the Escort and feels very tight and nice to drive. It also has Sat Nav, Electric windows, remote central locking, power steering, dual climate control, cruise, USB, blue tooth, parking sensors, electric folding mirrors etc.
I would argue that modern cars (in the 2011 range, no experience of brand new cars) are utterly brilliant, reliable, cheap to run and are a million time better than cars from the 80s and 90s, i think people have forgotten just how s
t they were back then.
My current car is a 2011 Renault Megane 1.4 TCE. It has zero rust, a six speed gearbox, gives far better MPG than the Escort and feels very tight and nice to drive. It also has Sat Nav, Electric windows, remote central locking, power steering, dual climate control, cruise, USB, blue tooth, parking sensors, electric folding mirrors etc.
I would argue that modern cars (in the 2011 range, no experience of brand new cars) are utterly brilliant, reliable, cheap to run and are a million time better than cars from the 80s and 90s, i think people have forgotten just how s
t they were back then.I get it but a Vauxhall was always junk. Add on a modern diesel engine and it’s a time bomb, same as any other manufacturer. It’s the safety stuff that does my head in. OP is right, in a crash or breakdown the car will be immobilised wherever it fails, with its E-brake and “safety” systems just leaving the driver like a sitting duck.
Our Honda is two years old. Get in, press start, press drive, and if the seatbelt is still unplugged I can only get it to move by manually releasing the handbrake. If the drivers door is open IT WILL NOT MOVE. Really handy for checking where kerbs or low obstructions are. Not. If the car was damaged in some way I can guarantee getting it off road to safety would be impossible.
If I get close (in the cars opinion, not mine) to the car in front it’ll beep at me. Get closer and it brakes for me.
If I reverse up the drive and get too close to the bush by the gate it’ll slam the brakes on. Full emergency stop.
If I reverse out of the drive and a car is passing on the road it’ll slam the brakes on again even before I’ve got to the pavement.
If I cross lane markings without indicating it’ll attack the steering and pull me back into the lane I just left. Sometimes it’ll slam the brakes on during a non-indicating lane change too. Safety? Errrr no.
Designed by an EU H&S committee to be operated by a six year old as far as I can see.
And don’t get me started on the Tesla we had…
Our Honda is two years old. Get in, press start, press drive, and if the seatbelt is still unplugged I can only get it to move by manually releasing the handbrake. If the drivers door is open IT WILL NOT MOVE. Really handy for checking where kerbs or low obstructions are. Not. If the car was damaged in some way I can guarantee getting it off road to safety would be impossible.
If I get close (in the cars opinion, not mine) to the car in front it’ll beep at me. Get closer and it brakes for me.
If I reverse up the drive and get too close to the bush by the gate it’ll slam the brakes on. Full emergency stop.
If I reverse out of the drive and a car is passing on the road it’ll slam the brakes on again even before I’ve got to the pavement.
If I cross lane markings without indicating it’ll attack the steering and pull me back into the lane I just left. Sometimes it’ll slam the brakes on during a non-indicating lane change too. Safety? Errrr no.
Designed by an EU H&S committee to be operated by a six year old as far as I can see.
And don’t get me started on the Tesla we had…
To use as the OPs reference to the BX, back in the early 2000s a mate had a BX. I can't remember what reg it was but given when they were made it must have been something between 10 and 15 years old, so very similar age to that Insignia.
It was well and truly worn out, despite having done not that many miles, and been maintained properly with only a couple of owners. Every single journey was an adventure of what was going to go wrong or fall off next. The engine cutting out whilst going along was a regular experience as various bits of the late 80s/early 90s wiring loom intermittenty crumbled. Even back then it also felt extremely vulnerable and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to have a crash in it! Other similarly aged cars (Escorts, Astras etc) weren't much better. I think he scrapped it within a couple of years due to terminal rust.
Now, a 13 year old car still is pretty good. Yes a minor problem can result in the car getting scrapped, but 20 years ago almost all 13 year old cars had major issues if they'd not been scrapped already.
It was well and truly worn out, despite having done not that many miles, and been maintained properly with only a couple of owners. Every single journey was an adventure of what was going to go wrong or fall off next. The engine cutting out whilst going along was a regular experience as various bits of the late 80s/early 90s wiring loom intermittenty crumbled. Even back then it also felt extremely vulnerable and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to have a crash in it! Other similarly aged cars (Escorts, Astras etc) weren't much better. I think he scrapped it within a couple of years due to terminal rust.
Now, a 13 year old car still is pretty good. Yes a minor problem can result in the car getting scrapped, but 20 years ago almost all 13 year old cars had major issues if they'd not been scrapped already.
I hate to let facts get in the way of a good rose-tinted rant, but the average (both mean and median) age of cars on the road in the UK has been rising continuously for the last 20 years, and the overall trend has been upwards ever since the motor car was invented. Statistically, cars are now remaining usable for longer than at any point in the past.
Can't argue with the "obese" bit though.
Can't argue with the "obese" bit though.
Also, to design a car so that the engine will shrug off running with no oil pressure, so that when the engine is still somehow dead there is a hand operated lever to allow the driver to tap dance on the remaining pedals to keep the invincible engine running whilst braking with their hand and whatever other hand picked one in a million ludicrous scenario your rose tinted microscope allows you to focus on is plainly a ridiculous notion, a complete waste of engineering time / money, the cost of which would be passed on to the buyer, and would make the car objectively worse for 99.9% of all the other scenarios it would be used in.
It's old man cloud shouting with a heavy grounding in ignorance.
In my humblest of opinions
It's old man cloud shouting with a heavy grounding in ignorance.
In my humblest of opinions
Plus nobody maintains their cars anymore, most people never even lift the bonnet. I remember when I was younger, every Saturday men would have their cars on Axle stands to fix it so they could get to work on Monday. Desperately trying to get to the Motor Factors to pick up a part before they closed at midday.
Now most people don't even check the oil, yet when they do finally break down due to zero maintenance they are immediately branded "unreliable". Most people have zero idea about cars, one woman my girlfriend works with thought the washer bottle filled itself when it rained........
I think modern cars are amazingly reliable, the idea of an engine easily getting to 100k+ miles with occasional oil changes was unheard of even back in the 80s.
Now most people don't even check the oil, yet when they do finally break down due to zero maintenance they are immediately branded "unreliable". Most people have zero idea about cars, one woman my girlfriend works with thought the washer bottle filled itself when it rained........
I think modern cars are amazingly reliable, the idea of an engine easily getting to 100k+ miles with occasional oil changes was unheard of even back in the 80s.
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