Pretend What Car - Classic 2+2, ideally with a V8
Discussion
Bit of a game and also give me food for thought in a years time and give me impetus to start saving up.
Scenario - I *need* (yes I really do) a car suitable for fun weekend motoring and a little bit of track day hooning.
This car must be capable of seating myself, my missus and young child still in car seat safely.
I *need* acceleration.
I *need* capable handling with good steering feedback.
I would like classic car looks and style.
I would like something different from the pack, so old or interesting or quirky a plus.
I wouldn't like to spend more than about £10K but this is just a 'guide price'.
I would like a vaguely usable boot for an overnight stay somewhere, pushchair fitting not necessary but a bonus.
I would like it to be capable of 30mpg on a run, what it does on a track or when pressing on isn't relevant as that is fun I'm paying for
I would like a soft top or targa but coupe is fine. I don't *need* a 4x4, saloon or 5 door hatchback.
I like spannering but I don't want to have to spend 10yrs restoring a pile of rust to a car shape.
I would like a V8, but other interesting engine layouts will be considered.
What are my options?
First thing to spring to mind is a Cerbera but they're a bit out of this budget now.
Scenario - I *need* (yes I really do) a car suitable for fun weekend motoring and a little bit of track day hooning.
This car must be capable of seating myself, my missus and young child still in car seat safely.
I *need* acceleration.
I *need* capable handling with good steering feedback.
I would like classic car looks and style.
I would like something different from the pack, so old or interesting or quirky a plus.
I wouldn't like to spend more than about £10K but this is just a 'guide price'.
I would like a vaguely usable boot for an overnight stay somewhere, pushchair fitting not necessary but a bonus.
I would like it to be capable of 30mpg on a run, what it does on a track or when pressing on isn't relevant as that is fun I'm paying for
I would like a soft top or targa but coupe is fine. I don't *need* a 4x4, saloon or 5 door hatchback.
I like spannering but I don't want to have to spend 10yrs restoring a pile of rust to a car shape.
I would like a V8, but other interesting engine layouts will be considered.
What are my options?
First thing to spring to mind is a Cerbera but they're a bit out of this budget now.
Edited by renrut on Thursday 10th January 12:29
mikeveal said:
So you want a classic car, with modern car safety.
It has to accelerate like the clappers, have a V8 and return 30mpg minimum.
It has to have sports car response and handling, yet have a minimum of three usable seats, and enough storage for a weekend away for the wife and toddler.
And you want it for less than 10K.
You may not get many sensible answers.
Way over budget; Lotus Evora.
Way over mpg; M3, Mazda R8.
Not very funky or quick; MINI Cooper S or Works.
Not safe or fast (by modern standards); Triumph Stag, Nissan 240Z.
Not safe; CRX (not the Del Slo).
Not a V8: Lotus Elise, with the child seat and luggage in a trailer.
Safely I said, not EuroNCAP 5*, something with a bad safety record or built like tin foil or without seat belts probably isn't a good call but most other things considered.It has to accelerate like the clappers, have a V8 and return 30mpg minimum.
It has to have sports car response and handling, yet have a minimum of three usable seats, and enough storage for a weekend away for the wife and toddler.
And you want it for less than 10K.
You may not get many sensible answers.
Way over budget; Lotus Evora.
Way over mpg; M3, Mazda R8.
Not very funky or quick; MINI Cooper S or Works.
Not safe or fast (by modern standards); Triumph Stag, Nissan 240Z.
Not safe; CRX (not the Del Slo).
Not a V8: Lotus Elise, with the child seat and luggage in a trailer.
I also said capable of 30mpg on a run, some of the big saloon V8s (4.2 S-type for example) can do that so why not a lighter 2+2?
Bear Phils said:
You could get a cerbera, just not with a V8
would that still not be scraping the bottom of the Cerbera barrel? And aren't the 6 pots particularly fragile anyway? but a good idea.Merc SL sounds interesting, could the brakes be easily uprated for a bit of track work? Or is there a less heavy weight option?
In terms of classic, it could be up to late 90s as long as its interesting enough hence thinking a Cerbera.
marshalla said:
Good shout. Perhaps not perfect being an auto but I'd consider one in the right car e.g. merc or jag or similar. In a classic Lotus it just seems a bit wrong.I've amended the first post to clarify what I mean about the 30mpg. I mean on a steady cruise on the motorway in clear traffic. If it only gets 18mpg round the doors and drinks like Olly Reed on track thats fine and dandy by me, that mileage will be very limited. I said this to rule out cars I really couldn't justify e.g. XJS V12s and similar.
XK8 is a good suggestion though and possible a more boxes ticked alternative to the Cerbera.
XK8 is a good suggestion though and possible a more boxes ticked alternative to the Cerbera.
I think the child seat requirement and mpg is realistically gonna limit me to 80s cars onwards.
If I were to say 25mpg cruiseing instead what options does this open up for me?
A saloon isn't really what I want, coupe/convertible is. I've got a 4x4 and hatchback for daily duties and this would replace a 2 seater soft top if it happened.
If I were to say 25mpg cruiseing instead what options does this open up for me?
A saloon isn't really what I want, coupe/convertible is. I've got a 4x4 and hatchback for daily duties and this would replace a 2 seater soft top if it happened.
To define safely and good acceleration I'd say:
Safely - seat belts all round must, substantial construction not degraded by rot. I know its hard to define but I'd consider a well kept Porsche 911 safe but an equivalent age and condition MGB not. Obviously 90s onwards where NCAP and things like ISOFIX started to appear this is more measurable but I'm not of the opinion that just because a car is 20+ yrs old its immediately unsafe.
Acceleration - better than 7s to 60. Faster is better but I'd say a car with nice steering feedback that does 60 in 7s would make me far happier than a poor feedback car that does it in 5s.
A 911 does jump out as a good option and only the lack of V8 wouldput it down. But 10K won't get me an older one now.
I find it hard to believe that some of the 80s and 90s v8s with fuel injection would struggle to do 30mpg over a distance in a sleek coupe when a saloon can manage it. I have looked over the real world MPG Wiki and it does suggest that sub 4.5L V8s can manage over 30mpg. People say an early XKR can do 28mpg FFS.
840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?
Safely - seat belts all round must, substantial construction not degraded by rot. I know its hard to define but I'd consider a well kept Porsche 911 safe but an equivalent age and condition MGB not. Obviously 90s onwards where NCAP and things like ISOFIX started to appear this is more measurable but I'm not of the opinion that just because a car is 20+ yrs old its immediately unsafe.
Acceleration - better than 7s to 60. Faster is better but I'd say a car with nice steering feedback that does 60 in 7s would make me far happier than a poor feedback car that does it in 5s.
A 911 does jump out as a good option and only the lack of V8 wouldput it down. But 10K won't get me an older one now.
I find it hard to believe that some of the 80s and 90s v8s with fuel injection would struggle to do 30mpg over a distance in a sleek coupe when a saloon can manage it. I have looked over the real world MPG Wiki and it does suggest that sub 4.5L V8s can manage over 30mpg. People say an early XKR can do 28mpg FFS.
840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?
300bhp/ton said:
AA88 said:
Supercharged MG ZT 260?
I like these. But a Mustang has the same engine/transmission (or better version if Mach 1/Cobra) and weighs less, with more upgrade parts, bigger and cheaper spares, better looks, rarer and better looking.If you don't need a saloon or an estate a Mustang is a better bet. Also being a lot lighter means a massive performance difference too in favour of the Yank.
This is meant to be a 'special' weekend car not something that blends in at the company car park.
300bhp/ton said:
renrut said:
I find it hard to believe that some of the 80s and 90s v8s with fuel injection would struggle to do 30mpg over a distance in a sleek coupe when a saloon can manage it. I have looked over the real world MPG Wiki and it does suggest that sub 4.5L V8s can manage over 30mpg. People say an early XKR can do 28mpg FFS.
840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?
Thing is, the early 1996 XK8 used largely the same engine as the one today does. Maybe some changes in the software, but it's a lot more similar than you'd think.840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?
Todays XK8 only rated at 25mpg (Parkers). So while it might be possible to extract 30mpg from one, you really shouldn't make it a target. Jumping in it and blasting up the M1 then off onto the country roads for an hour will likely result in well below 30mpg as a real true "mode" average. Personally I'd say an XK8 is more like 19-22mpg normal use +-5mpg for the extremes of cruising or hooning.
The BMW 840i is a BIG and HEAVY car. Parkers claim 1895kg, that's nearly 350kg heavier than my Camaro.
They also claim 22mpg.... so in the teens will likely be frequent.Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 10th January 14:22
PS Parkers info is best taken with a pinch of salt and often only 'combined' figures.
300bhp/ton said:
That is my exact point though, I think you are being unrealistic to expect 30mpg (or maybe even 28mpg) when you "go visit family" in almost all of the cars mentioned in this thread.
If I brimmed our 6.0 XJ12 and jumped straight on the motorway with the cruise at 65mph it'd do 21-22mpg. But I'd only be lying to myself to really think I could budget fuel costs on that mpg, even for a "run". As soon as you are off the m-way you'll be down to 14-16mpg.
An XK8, TVR or many others won't be hugely different in behaviour. Even my Camaro which I know has done 31mpg is not the figure I'd budget too. 24mpg is the average I use as over a year that is the most likely figure it'll attain.
Where fuel economy is important will be when visiting family who are at different ends of the country, fortunately none that far from a motorway. So I might drive 200 miles on the motorway at circa 30mpg cruise and then 8 off it at the other end at say 15mpg that gives 6.67 gallons + 0.5 gallon off motorway = 7.7 gallons. If I was getting say 18mpg all the time thats more like 11.6 gallons for a one way trip or near £25 difference in the pocket each way.If I brimmed our 6.0 XJ12 and jumped straight on the motorway with the cruise at 65mph it'd do 21-22mpg. But I'd only be lying to myself to really think I could budget fuel costs on that mpg, even for a "run". As soon as you are off the m-way you'll be down to 14-16mpg.
An XK8, TVR or many others won't be hugely different in behaviour. Even my Camaro which I know has done 31mpg is not the figure I'd budget too. 24mpg is the average I use as over a year that is the most likely figure it'll attain.
I do these sort of trips ~4 times a year and would in reality would make up the majority of the mileage on the car so cruising mpg is far more important than round town. Even the 'round town' mileage won't be creeping in bunged up city traffic but A roads and country lanes. If I know I'm gonna be sat in stop-start traffic I'll take one of the diesels and enjoy 40-60mpg.
I'm well aware I could burn that saving by taking snake pass or woodhead pass to see the BIL but then I'd have that saving to burn and feel 'guilt free' doing it.
I really didn't want this to turn into a discussion about fuel economy but on interesting weekend 2+2s
A cheap 3200GT sounds like an expensive engine failure waiting to happen but at least a (10) grand italian.
ETA - You'll note the ONLY part of my original spec were:
This car must be capable of seating myself, my missus and young child still in car seat safely.
I *need* acceleration.
I *need* capable handling with good steering feedback.
The rest was a wish list hoping for something that bore that wish list in mind but kept to those 3 requirements. Safely can be taken to mean in a proper car seat not on the roof rack, in a trailer or riding the dog that I've tied to the towbar!
Edited by renrut on Thursday 10th January 15:55
el romeral said:
10 grand is into the lowest end of the Ferrari Mondial price range. Ticks pretty much all boxes apart from the mpg.
See thats the kind of out of the box thinking I was looking for! What are they like mpg wise? Sounds like a perfect option but I thought they were more like £15k than £10k?Thats the cheapest I could find.
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...
Bi turbo is interesting but I really don't like the look of them. I do like the 80s angular + pop up head lights though so a Mondial is really my cup of tea. Prices look a bit steep though. Same with the more classic looking 911s, a 996 is within grasp. I suppose I could always save up a bit longer.
If I drop the 'interesting engine' wish list things open up hugely - Integra Type R for example. But I suppose there are still things like Skyline, 300ZX, Supra, RX7 with less than run of the mill engines but possibly a bit juicy.
If I drop the 'interesting engine' wish list things open up hugely - Integra Type R for example. But I suppose there are still things like Skyline, 300ZX, Supra, RX7 with less than run of the mill engines but possibly a bit juicy.
DonkeyApple said:
How about one of the old 2+2 Lotus?
My brother has an Elan 2+2, and I know it sounds silly but I really don't want to be copying him, not after having his hand-me-down clothes as a kid. That and despite not being in a bad state has still cost him circa £5k on top of purchase price and 3 years to restore. On the road probably £12-15K.It is a stunning car though.
300bhp/ton said:
ITR's (DC2's) I have a very soft spot for. Fab cars, truly great cars and will certainly meet your mpg needs and are a great drive. But they are a different type of car, a modern classic maybe, but certainly not a classic in the sense most people understand the word. And there's no denying the Integra was a humdrum fwd hatchback in it's lesser form despite the ITR being marketed as a coupe for the UK.
So on your points of wanting style, class and something different from the pack I think the ITR is just the wrong sort of vehicle to achieve this.
All of the other cars you mention are fine cars too, but they aren't going to be any better on fuel either than the V8 options tbh. Especially the RX-7 which could indeed be single digits. Also while the RX-7 could be had as a 2+2 most in the UK are 2 seaters and when equipped with rear seats they are tiny tiny in the back.
300ZX Z32 is a tank, great looking but certainly GT class in size/weight, so bear this in mind for track use.
Supra MKIV TT is superb, but avoid the chavved up looking ones. Skyline lines are immensely cool but budget in the high teens low 20's for fuel.
Agreed.So on your points of wanting style, class and something different from the pack I think the ITR is just the wrong sort of vehicle to achieve this.
All of the other cars you mention are fine cars too, but they aren't going to be any better on fuel either than the V8 options tbh. Especially the RX-7 which could indeed be single digits. Also while the RX-7 could be had as a 2+2 most in the UK are 2 seaters and when equipped with rear seats they are tiny tiny in the back.
300ZX Z32 is a tank, great looking but certainly GT class in size/weight, so bear this in mind for track use.
Supra MKIV TT is superb, but avoid the chavved up looking ones. Skyline lines are immensely cool but budget in the high teens low 20's for fuel.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Friday 11th January 09:47
Integra would TBH more a fun day to day car for me and possibly one for the future as its on my bucket list. The DC2 really is at the ideal point to buy, £3k gets a decent one and I can't see them ever getting much less. But despite being one of the best its still only 4 cylinders and I don't think it would feel special enough driving it unless I'm really going for it. And it doesn't fit the style criteria particularly either. so not really.
I've always liked the Z32 shape but it would be big and practical enough but I don't know how big the LWB 2+2 ones are as all the ones I've seen were the 2 seater swb.
RX7, Supra and Skyline would fit the bill but after talking to sellers of them a few years back anything but the boggo NA ones are low 20s even with careful throttle on a steady flat road.
Curren thoughts are:
Ferrari Mondial / 308 if I could find one cheap enough without being a money pit.
Porsche 911 996 - bit too modern looking if I'm honest but ticks every other box bar the V8.
Porsche 968 - similar to above and only a 4 cylinder although it is a massive 4 cylinder but perhaps more practical and affordable.
TVR Cerbera - Speed 6 perhaps or V8 if again I get lucky on price.
Jag XK8 - Ticks most of the boxes but perhaps a bit too GT not sporty enough. I'd have to drive one to know. an XKR if the thirst isn't too bad might be a great compromise.
BMW M3 e36 - perhaps although I think it would disappoint from the appearance, they always look like a 3 series that works out and not really that special.
BMW 840i - I really don't know a lot about these but seems to tick a lot of boxes.
BMW 635i e24 - similar to above but bit more classic looking and I REALLY liek the shark nose look of them. - http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...
Maserati 3200GT - Ticks a lot of boxes but also seems to have the biggest bill potential from stories of complete engine failures.
something American with a rumbly V8 but I really know very little about this area - Trans Am or something like that but it would need to be able to give steering feedback even if it takes a little tweaking.
Some sort of classic Lotus 2+2 but not an Elan as bro has one.
The 2+2 option isn't negotiable. I'm currently restoring and building a K series midget which should have have similar performance characteristics to an elise (0-60 ~6s, 700kg, 40mpg) but in a classic shape and a semi useful boot. But its only a 2 seater so near useless as soon as Jnr is allowed into anything that isn't a steel reinforced cacoon.
I like the Maserati idea but everything I've read about them has proclaimed doom unless you have a spare engine sitting about.
I like the Renault GTA, very cool.
300 - XJS' have popped into my mind, I love the shape and a 4.0 with manual box would be something to look out for. Performance on them doesn't seem to be that startling though as stock. But I could get a good one for £5k then make it faster as you suggest and not something I'm adverse too, it is afterall a toy car.
I like the Maserati idea but everything I've read about them has proclaimed doom unless you have a spare engine sitting about.
I like the Renault GTA, very cool.
300 - XJS' have popped into my mind, I love the shape and a 4.0 with manual box would be something to look out for. Performance on them doesn't seem to be that startling though as stock. But I could get a good one for £5k then make it faster as you suggest and not something I'm adverse too, it is afterall a toy car.
saaby93 said:
My vote
V8
Is that a Daimler Dart? i.e. SP250 tiny daimler 2.5l V8 in a fibreglass body? My uncle had one of those before I was born. I thought they were 2 seaters?V8
ETA - turns out it is a seater! To quote wiki "The car was described as a 2+2, but the bench-like rear seat offered very limited leg room unless the front seats were pushed fully forward. " Ok not likely to see the 30mpg but it ticks pretty much every other box.
Edited by renrut on Monday 14th January 14:43
soxboy said:
Totally ignoring the V8 part of it but what about an Audi ur quattro? It has a great 5 cylinder warble with turbo kick (eventually), room for 5 plus not bad boot, plenty of track mods and not bad economy on a run.
Also 911 Carrera 3.2 targa? ( although a bit more cramped)
I'll be honest the UR quattro isn't really my cup of tea looks wise and I've never found 4wd to be particularly inspiring from a driving feedback point of view.Also 911 Carrera 3.2 targa? ( although a bit more cramped)
911s are on the list but the 964s are getting pricey so a 996 would be the only one I could afford.
Dusty964 said:
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa...
A 928 for 5k. Manual. Won't get 30mpg but a great place to be
But 5K buys a lot of fuel!A 928 for 5k. Manual. Won't get 30mpg but a great place to be
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