Garage blown my engine - where do I stand?
Discussion
Hi all,
Our 320d went to my local garage to have the turbo replaced after it had gone. Over the last week when I called they said there was oil still in the manifold and they need to take it out as the car wouldn't stop once started. I thought this a bit odd but didn't say anything. Anyhow I just went down in person to the garage to see what was going on , and it turns out when they started the car it rev'ed it self to full max 'until they could get the fuel pipe off'. The engine won't start now and he says 'perhaps a bent value'..He will look at it...
Now they could have done some real long term damage here, aside from that where do I said legally cost wise? Will I have to lump this or are the garage to blame?
Our 320d went to my local garage to have the turbo replaced after it had gone. Over the last week when I called they said there was oil still in the manifold and they need to take it out as the car wouldn't stop once started. I thought this a bit odd but didn't say anything. Anyhow I just went down in person to the garage to see what was going on , and it turns out when they started the car it rev'ed it self to full max 'until they could get the fuel pipe off'. The engine won't start now and he says 'perhaps a bent value'..He will look at it...
Now they could have done some real long term damage here, aside from that where do I said legally cost wise? Will I have to lump this or are the garage to blame?
thatdude said:
The garage are to blame. With a turbo issue there is a high possibility of oil getting into the engine and a runaway occuring (and depending on the side of the turbo that failed, this may have been predicted).
The fault lies with them as the vehicle was in their care.
Quick question; if it was running on residual oil in the inlet (which must have been quite a large amount) why was removing the fuel pipe the correct way to deal with this? If I got a diesel engine running, and there was sufficient oil available to keep the engine running, then I could theoretically shut off the fuel pump / injectors / whatever and it would still carry on running because it is running on oil.
Did they first try and hit the "stop engine" button to stop the injectors / pump / whatever?
Do you see what I mean?
Yeah I don't really understand what has happened here. Is it basically, that because there is oil in the manifold this creates an immediate vacuum that makes the injectors think that its ok to open right up? Surely just hitting the stop button on the car would kill the injectors as they are computer/electronically controlled?The fault lies with them as the vehicle was in their care.
Quick question; if it was running on residual oil in the inlet (which must have been quite a large amount) why was removing the fuel pipe the correct way to deal with this? If I got a diesel engine running, and there was sufficient oil available to keep the engine running, then I could theoretically shut off the fuel pump / injectors / whatever and it would still carry on running because it is running on oil.
Did they first try and hit the "stop engine" button to stop the injectors / pump / whatever?
Do you see what I mean?
Edited by thatdude on Tuesday 18th November 10:59
I suppose I will want to see if they do the work and lump the cost. :-/
r11co said:
OOOh dear. A diesel engine ingesting its own oil is one of those things that are scary, fascinating, dangerous and runinous in equal measures.
A garage that thinks disconnecting the fuel line is a solution to the problem is not one I would not trust to work on my car. Blocking off the air intake and suffocating the engine is the only answer (or if you have a large CO2 fire extinguisher to hand, discharge it up the air intake).
If the engine was allowed to rev itself to a stop then it is shagged as it will have drained itself of most of its lubrication and burnt it as fuel. 'Bent valve' is an optimistic head-in-the-sand prognosis.
So you think the engine will be completely b*ggered? bottom end, bearings, pistons, valves etc? Jez have they just written off the car?A garage that thinks disconnecting the fuel line is a solution to the problem is not one I would not trust to work on my car. Blocking off the air intake and suffocating the engine is the only answer (or if you have a large CO2 fire extinguisher to hand, discharge it up the air intake).
If the engine was allowed to rev itself to a stop then it is shagged as it will have drained itself of most of its lubrication and burnt it as fuel. 'Bent valve' is an optimistic head-in-the-sand prognosis.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th November 11:28
dme123 said:
All they would have had to do is stuff something into the air intake, if it was running away on engine oil then "removing the fuel pipe" obviously wouldn't have achieved anything that switching the ignition off wouldn't have done. I thought most modern diesels had a butterfly valve in the inlet that closed when you switch the ignition off to stop a runaway engine?
Who knows what actually happened - I'm sure I won't ever know. Now its a case of how bad the damage is, and whether they will repair without charge me. Oh happy days.stevesingo said:
Of course, any competant garage should clean out the intake manifold and intercooler when replacing a failed turbo to remove and potential unmetered fuel (engine oil) before restarting, and have a plan for stopping the engine just in case.
Yes clearly they didn't
stevesingo said:
OP, insist on a replacement engine!
They won't in a million years - too local and too small. The best I can hope for is they repair it for free. It however will never ever be the same.The Crack Fox said:
What happened to your turbo? When that went pop how can you prove that it didn't (directly or indirectly) cause further damage? Assuming your engine wasn't running when you took it in you have no idea what was and wasn't already knackered. I'd go easy on the blame until the garage give you a full and detailed report on what it wrong, and (most importantly) how much they expect you to pay...
Good luck
The engine was running fine, with no warning lights or anything. Turbo was just wining like a b*tch. Can I prove that? no not unless i have a time machine and a video cameraGood luck
PugwasHDJ80 said:
My experience of this happeneing:
Oil seal on the turbo going and the turbo sucking oil into the inlet and blowing into the engine- basically sucking the engine dry
Overfilling the engine with oil- the oil sits above the bottom of the oil rings and the engine starts to suck in engine oil- very quickly consuming the whole lot
I think this happened. Oil seal on the turbo going and the turbo sucking oil into the inlet and blowing into the engine- basically sucking the engine dry
Overfilling the engine with oil- the oil sits above the bottom of the oil rings and the engine starts to suck in engine oil- very quickly consuming the whole lot
Only time will tell now once they look at it later in the week.
996TT02 said:
The idea that the car would have consumed all it's oil, all 4 or 5 litres of it, is more than a bit far fetched.
Almost certainly the only damage is that related to over revving. Possibly and probably just a couple of bent valves as the garage is saying, once this happens the compression is gone and the reduction in revs due to running on less cylinders won't maintain the running on - after all oil in the inlet tract is not the ideal means of fuelling.
The valves bend because they extend further than the cam pushes them (momentum due to revs) commonly called bounce and hence they contact the piston. Yes the piston gets marked but plenty of cars get rebuilt with marked pistons and it's no big deal.
With a diesel the heavier duty components such as conrods plus the relatively lowish revs possible even when running on - the fuel is slower to burn than petrol - ensure that other forms of over rev damage are not common.
OP, just let the garage sort it out but make sure you don't pay for the extra work.
I do hope so!! :-)Almost certainly the only damage is that related to over revving. Possibly and probably just a couple of bent valves as the garage is saying, once this happens the compression is gone and the reduction in revs due to running on less cylinders won't maintain the running on - after all oil in the inlet tract is not the ideal means of fuelling.
The valves bend because they extend further than the cam pushes them (momentum due to revs) commonly called bounce and hence they contact the piston. Yes the piston gets marked but plenty of cars get rebuilt with marked pistons and it's no big deal.
With a diesel the heavier duty components such as conrods plus the relatively lowish revs possible even when running on - the fuel is slower to burn than petrol - ensure that other forms of over rev damage are not common.
OP, just let the garage sort it out but make sure you don't pay for the extra work.
So I went down to the garage this morning. They said they managed to stop the engine by blocking off the air before it burned all the oil.
Anyhow they had the head off the engine and one of the pistons is buggered and all the tapets for that piston are well hammered as well, so he said he'll be changing them and the injectors.
Anyhow they had the head off the engine and one of the pistons is buggered and all the tapets for that piston are well hammered as well, so he said he'll be changing them and the injectors.
Yeah. I don;t know. Cleary they are in the wrong, but what will stand 'in a court of law' I don't know. I don't have written contract or anything. They could start claiming the engine was blown when they picked it up etc. Innocent until proven guilty etc.
Obviously me and the Mrs are gutted and can't believe they are treating us like this. We haven't done anything wrong here we believe. Turbo went on the car driving home. Pulled over as clearly the turbo was failing (high wining sound that matched load (not revs or speed), and loss of power, oil being burnt out of exhaust. When pulled over engine running normally, not warning lights, engine check ok. Start stop no issues. Let the garage pick the car up on flatbed as didn't want to risk any further damage. Ask them to replace turbo with a reconditioned turbo (came with 12 months warranty). Week later got a call saying they had "replace the turbo but when started the engine they coundn't stop it. The manifold must-be/is full of oil, so we need to take that off". A week or so later I call and they say they have removed all the oil but the engine won't start and tey need to take the top off to see "if there is a bent value" and I actually get confirmation that the engine had run away with itself. A week later I go down (after another visit to see if they had done anything) and they had taken top of engine off and it was clear that one piston was severally damaged and it had been smashing into the valves, and was told they will replace them and see if it will run. I went down yesterday and ask how it was progressing and was told 'we've not looked at it'. After pushing them to do something they said the will work on it this week (or the lady did). Got a call this morning from the owner saying the engine is beyond repair and needs a new engine. I said ' Well ok, but there is the question who pays for it', he said ' you do', I said ' well the engine was working fine when you picked it up, and asked you to repair the turbo, during that time one of your mechanics didn't check everything they needed to check whilst replacing the turbo and as a consequence the end ran away with itself, so from my understanding it the garage responsibility'. To which he replied ' you haven't paid us for replacing the turbo or anything', I said " well of course would be be paying you for the pickup and work on replacing the turbo, but not for damaging our engine'. At which point he said ' we won't be paying for that and shall take legal advise'.
So for me I believe we are not in the wrong. However will any of that stand up in court as I have NO PROOF, aside from a turbo receipt I brought, and a broken car that is still at their garage.
Obviously me and the Mrs are gutted and can't believe they are treating us like this. We haven't done anything wrong here we believe. Turbo went on the car driving home. Pulled over as clearly the turbo was failing (high wining sound that matched load (not revs or speed), and loss of power, oil being burnt out of exhaust. When pulled over engine running normally, not warning lights, engine check ok. Start stop no issues. Let the garage pick the car up on flatbed as didn't want to risk any further damage. Ask them to replace turbo with a reconditioned turbo (came with 12 months warranty). Week later got a call saying they had "replace the turbo but when started the engine they coundn't stop it. The manifold must-be/is full of oil, so we need to take that off". A week or so later I call and they say they have removed all the oil but the engine won't start and tey need to take the top off to see "if there is a bent value" and I actually get confirmation that the engine had run away with itself. A week later I go down (after another visit to see if they had done anything) and they had taken top of engine off and it was clear that one piston was severally damaged and it had been smashing into the valves, and was told they will replace them and see if it will run. I went down yesterday and ask how it was progressing and was told 'we've not looked at it'. After pushing them to do something they said the will work on it this week (or the lady did). Got a call this morning from the owner saying the engine is beyond repair and needs a new engine. I said ' Well ok, but there is the question who pays for it', he said ' you do', I said ' well the engine was working fine when you picked it up, and asked you to repair the turbo, during that time one of your mechanics didn't check everything they needed to check whilst replacing the turbo and as a consequence the end ran away with itself, so from my understanding it the garage responsibility'. To which he replied ' you haven't paid us for replacing the turbo or anything', I said " well of course would be be paying you for the pickup and work on replacing the turbo, but not for damaging our engine'. At which point he said ' we won't be paying for that and shall take legal advise'.
So for me I believe we are not in the wrong. However will any of that stand up in court as I have NO PROOF, aside from a turbo receipt I brought, and a broken car that is still at their garage.
Sump said:
You now need to be careful here depending on the garage.
If you go full guns blazing what will you do when they call bankruptcy, shut down and reopen with another name?
Have they got a reputation they don't mind losing?
I would think can they afford it, its the most popular and probably the most respected local garage in our town. 2 mechanics good size premises, booked up 3 weeks in advance. We have used them in the past for a service and tire change.If you go full guns blazing what will you do when they call bankruptcy, shut down and reopen with another name?
Have they got a reputation they don't mind losing?
Googling around it seems a replacement engine would be around £1600 + fitting which they should be able to afford.
pmjg66 said:
ou would need to get the new turbo removed and independently inspected with the manufacturer.
It will be fine,the oil is due to the previously failed turbo as it has collapsed damaging the turbo seals..
They should have done this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPa8KxnumE4
I suppose as well the run away engine will have probably damaged the new turbo that was fitted? It will be fine,the oil is due to the previously failed turbo as it has collapsed damaging the turbo seals..
They should have done this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPa8KxnumE4
stuart-b said:
Sorry but I don't think it is as simple as "he supplied the part therefore he is to blame".
This is nonsense
1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?
OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.
I would personally fight it if I were you.
Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.
I had a look at the trading website - it seems we have some form of statutory rights, how far they extend I do not know. Thanks for your comments though.This is nonsense
1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?
OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.
I would personally fight it if I were you.
Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.
Edited by stuart-b on Thursday 27th November 07:54
zedx19 said:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-N47D20A-ENGINE-SUPPL...
I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
thats a lot of money plus we live many many mile away.I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
Hi All,
I thought I'd give an update to what has happened. After a standoff with the garage where they refused to pay for anything, we sort legal advice on the matter and it clearly landed in the garages realm even though we supplied the turbo. After a frank and honest conversation with the garage they agree to claim/request a claim on their liability insurance. The insurance company sent an expert to assess what had happened to the car and what was to be done. The result was there was no issue with the turbo, but simply a case of oil consumption run away, and they declared the car a right off and was taken away.
3 months of hassle all said and done. The garage still had the cheek to send a bill for work done.
I thought I'd give an update to what has happened. After a standoff with the garage where they refused to pay for anything, we sort legal advice on the matter and it clearly landed in the garages realm even though we supplied the turbo. After a frank and honest conversation with the garage they agree to claim/request a claim on their liability insurance. The insurance company sent an expert to assess what had happened to the car and what was to be done. The result was there was no issue with the turbo, but simply a case of oil consumption run away, and they declared the car a right off and was taken away.
3 months of hassle all said and done. The garage still had the cheek to send a bill for work done.
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