what is an 'early' 3.4 996?
Discussion
tronics when they were new, time hasn't improved them.Filibuster said:
This. I think the Tip is looked upon way too often. While I'm the first to cry for a manual car, there are ever more times I find myself in the situation that I wouldn't mind a good autobox changing gears for me. This has of course to do with the individual driving profile. But being stuck in any form of traffic makes you really wish for an automatic.
I often fantasized about a 996 C4 Tip with a lift kit lately as the ultimate all year city runaround and adventurer 911
Oh, and BTW in case you haven't seen this before:
Also, the collectors hoover up all the manual cars, leaving the poor tips behind, hence their VW golf money…!I often fantasized about a 996 C4 Tip with a lift kit lately as the ultimate all year city runaround and adventurer 911
Oh, and BTW in case you haven't seen this before:
Change the gearbox oil with Febi 236.14, and it’ll slush through its 5 forward gears a fraction less lazily than before.
Edited by IREvans on Tuesday 20th June 20:01
The NAG 5-speed Mercedes Box in my SL 320 (coupled to the M104 i6 engine) is one of the sweetest engine gearbox configuration I have ever driven.
IIRC this is the same gearbox, as in the 996.2/7.1 cars. And the few times I have driven 996/7 Tip, I can't fault the gearbox. After all, Mercedes are known to make some of the best automatic gearboxes. But no, it doesn't offer the same experience as driving a manual car, but it doesn't have to.
It changes the character of the car. If you want a manual sports car experience - as I do btw - a tiptronic prabably is not the car for you. But if you want to cruise along, are often in congested traffic, etc. the tiptronic isn't a bad gearbox. Also you have to learn, or rather adapt how to drive. And these cars have electronic learning curves that adapt to you driving style too. So you have to allow some driving time to get the best out of these gearboxes.
I can understand why someone wants a manual and not an automatic 911, but this doesn't make the Tips bad cars.
BTW, there was a recent podcast from Jan Fatthauer (9FF), who rated the Tiptronic as the best gearboxes for the 996/7 Turbo cars. He claims this to be the best suited gearbox, before the manual and PDK boxes.
IIRC this is the same gearbox, as in the 996.2/7.1 cars. And the few times I have driven 996/7 Tip, I can't fault the gearbox. After all, Mercedes are known to make some of the best automatic gearboxes. But no, it doesn't offer the same experience as driving a manual car, but it doesn't have to.
It changes the character of the car. If you want a manual sports car experience - as I do btw - a tiptronic prabably is not the car for you. But if you want to cruise along, are often in congested traffic, etc. the tiptronic isn't a bad gearbox. Also you have to learn, or rather adapt how to drive. And these cars have electronic learning curves that adapt to you driving style too. So you have to allow some driving time to get the best out of these gearboxes.
I can understand why someone wants a manual and not an automatic 911, but this doesn't make the Tips bad cars.
BTW, there was a recent podcast from Jan Fatthauer (9FF), who rated the Tiptronic as the best gearboxes for the 996/7 Turbo cars. He claims this to be the best suited gearbox, before the manual and PDK boxes.
Filibuster said:
The NAG 5-speed Mercedes Box in my SL 320 (coupled to the M104 i6 engine) is one of the sweetest engine gearbox configuration I have ever driven.
IIRC this is the same gearbox, as in the 996.2/7.1 cars. And the few times I have driven 996/7 Tip, I can't fault the gearbox. After all, Mercedes are known to make some of the best automatic gearboxes. But no, it doesn't offer the same experience as driving a manual car, but it doesn't have to.
It changes the character of the car. If you want a manual sports car experience - as I do btw - a tiptronic prabably is not the car for you. But if you want to cruise along, are often in congested traffic, etc. the tiptronic isn't a bad gearbox. Also you have to learn, or rather adapt how to drive. And these cars have electronic learning curves that adapt to you driving style too. So you have to allow some driving time to get the best out of these gearboxes.
I can understand why someone wants a manual and not an automatic 911, but this doesn't make the Tips bad cars.
BTW, there was a recent podcast from Jan Fatthauer (9FF), who rated the Tiptronic as the best gearboxes for the 996/7 Turbo cars. He claims this to be the best suited gearbox, before the manual and PDK boxes.
Very reasonable. Not sure it actually adds up. You could make a similar argument re, say, a manual S-Class limo. If you really want a manual S-Class, then such and such manual is actually very good. But it's still a manual S-Class and if you want an engaging manual experience, you're in fundamentally the wrong car.IIRC this is the same gearbox, as in the 996.2/7.1 cars. And the few times I have driven 996/7 Tip, I can't fault the gearbox. After all, Mercedes are known to make some of the best automatic gearboxes. But no, it doesn't offer the same experience as driving a manual car, but it doesn't have to.
It changes the character of the car. If you want a manual sports car experience - as I do btw - a tiptronic prabably is not the car for you. But if you want to cruise along, are often in congested traffic, etc. the tiptronic isn't a bad gearbox. Also you have to learn, or rather adapt how to drive. And these cars have electronic learning curves that adapt to you driving style too. So you have to allow some driving time to get the best out of these gearboxes.
I can understand why someone wants a manual and not an automatic 911, but this doesn't make the Tips bad cars.
BTW, there was a recent podcast from Jan Fatthauer (9FF), who rated the Tiptronic as the best gearboxes for the 996/7 Turbo cars. He claims this to be the best suited gearbox, before the manual and PDK boxes.
It's doesn't make sense to spec an S-Class to dance on the pedals down a B road and it doesn't make sense to spec a 911 for sitting in traffic. Of course, if someone insists that's what they want, you can't strictly say they're wrong. But I'd still argue a fundamental mismatch is a fundamental mismatch.
3.4f6 said:
Very reasonable. Not sure it actually adds up. You could make a similar argument re, say, a manual S-Class limo. If you really want a manual S-Class, then such and such manual is actually very good. But it's still a manual S-Class and if you want an engaging manual experience, you're in fundamentally the wrong car.
It's doesn't make sense to spec an S-Class to dance on the pedals down a B road and it doesn't make sense to spec a 911 for sitting in traffic. Of course, if someone insists that's what they want, you can't strictly say they're wrong. But I'd still argue a fundamental mismatch is a fundamental mismatch.
Well, one could argue that the Porsche has always been a sports car for everyday. Since the early '60s they have been marketed as such. It's doesn't make sense to spec an S-Class to dance on the pedals down a B road and it doesn't make sense to spec a 911 for sitting in traffic. Of course, if someone insists that's what they want, you can't strictly say they're wrong. But I'd still argue a fundamental mismatch is a fundamental mismatch.
And you could get a Sportomatic gearbox, basically a manual with an automated clutch, as early as 1968.
Around my place, I see daily driver 911 all the time. people like to use their 911 as an everyday car, not just as a sunday morning/track car. And the 911 is perfectly capable in this role. And unfortunately, sitting in traffic has become ever more a reality.
And that is the beauty of the 911. It is just as brilliant as an everyday road car, as it is on track (all within certain limits, of course).
Also, while the S class doesn't have sporty quality (certainly not in the '90s/early '00s) the BMW E38 7 series had and was available as a manual.
Have you seen 'The Transporter' ??
Suppose it depends if you consider every day car must = auto. I've done about 12-15k miles a year in manual Porsches since about, oh I dunno, 2010 or thereabouts, so would like to think I'm not unrealistic about what dailying a Porsche sports car means, albeit I don't commute daily in rush hour traffic.
Sure, when stuck in traffic auto would be easier. But these cars come with various downsides and expenses. All justified for the driving experience. To spec the car for driving in traffic at the expense of what it's best at is, like I said, a fundamental mismatch. And the E38 is an example of a bad idea, not a good one. The fact it exists doesn't mean a manual limo makes sense! Love the E38. Wouldn't for one moment want a manual E38.
There are always compromises, obviously. I'm not saying that no concessions should be made for daily usability and totally agree that's what makes Porsches great - they are so very usable. It's exactly why I daily Porches, they're practical, usable, well packaged and they drive great. And if an auto 996 is what somebody likes, who can argue with that on a personal preference basis?
But there's also got to be a point where you've gone too far, hasn't there? Why not drop in a four-pot turbo diesel good for 300k miles without the needing major maintenance? It could do with a bit more room inside, so let's make it a four door. And at this point, the rear-engine thing is really messing up the luggage space, so let's stick the dag-dag in the front. Now you've got your ultimate daily driving320d 911! As it happens the facelift E90 320d Efficient Dynamics is quite a sweet drivers car. In manual!
Basically, if you prefer the Tip blatting down your favourite road that would seem odd to me personally but it would be coherent. What seems harder to grasp is buying a sports car and then speccing the powertrain for sitting in traffic.
A topic that will never be settled, obviously. Find it completely baffling that anyone would want a torque converter in a car like a 996, I find it such a miserable experience, but some people clearly like 'em. No wonder people can't agree on politics with such gaping chasms when it comes to trivia like Porsche powertrains!
Sure, when stuck in traffic auto would be easier. But these cars come with various downsides and expenses. All justified for the driving experience. To spec the car for driving in traffic at the expense of what it's best at is, like I said, a fundamental mismatch. And the E38 is an example of a bad idea, not a good one. The fact it exists doesn't mean a manual limo makes sense! Love the E38. Wouldn't for one moment want a manual E38.
There are always compromises, obviously. I'm not saying that no concessions should be made for daily usability and totally agree that's what makes Porsches great - they are so very usable. It's exactly why I daily Porches, they're practical, usable, well packaged and they drive great. And if an auto 996 is what somebody likes, who can argue with that on a personal preference basis?
But there's also got to be a point where you've gone too far, hasn't there? Why not drop in a four-pot turbo diesel good for 300k miles without the needing major maintenance? It could do with a bit more room inside, so let's make it a four door. And at this point, the rear-engine thing is really messing up the luggage space, so let's stick the dag-dag in the front. Now you've got your ultimate daily driving
Basically, if you prefer the Tip blatting down your favourite road that would seem odd to me personally but it would be coherent. What seems harder to grasp is buying a sports car and then speccing the powertrain for sitting in traffic.
A topic that will never be settled, obviously. Find it completely baffling that anyone would want a torque converter in a car like a 996, I find it such a miserable experience, but some people clearly like 'em. No wonder people can't agree on politics with such gaping chasms when it comes to trivia like Porsche powertrains!
3.4f6 said:
Suppose it depends if you consider every day car must = auto. I've done about 12-15k miles a year in manual Porsches since about, oh I dunno, 2010 or thereabouts, so would like to think I'm not unrealistic about what dailying a Porsche sports car means, albeit I don't commute daily in rush hour traffic.
Sure, when stuck in traffic auto would be easier. But these cars come with various downsides and expenses. All justified for the driving experience. To spec the car for driving in traffic at the expense of what it's best at is, like I said, a fundamental mismatch. And the E38 is an example of a bad idea, not a good one. The fact it exists doesn't mean a manual limo makes sense! Love the E38. Wouldn't for one moment want a manual E38.
There are always compromises, obviously. I'm not saying that no concessions should be made for daily usability and totally agree that's what makes Porsches great - they are so very usable. It's exactly why I daily Porches, they're practical, usable, well packaged and they drive great. And if an auto 996 is what somebody likes, who can argue with that on a personal preference basis?
But there's also got to be a point where you've gone too far, hasn't there? Why not drop in a four-pot turbo diesel good for 300k miles without the needing major maintenance? It could do with a bit more room inside, so let's make it a four door. And at this point, the rear-engine thing is really messing up the luggage space, so let's stick the dag-dag in the front. Now you've got your ultimate daily driving320d 911! As it happens the facelift E90 320d Efficient Dynamics is quite a sweet drivers car. In manual!
Basically, if you prefer the Tip blatting down your favourite road that would seem odd to me personally but it would be coherent. What seems harder to grasp is buying a sports car and then speccing the powertrain for sitting in traffic.
A topic that will never be settled, obviously. Find it completely baffling that anyone would want a torque converter in a car like a 996, I find it such a miserable experience, but some people clearly like 'em. No wonder people can't agree on politics with such gaping chasms when it comes to trivia like Porsche powertrains!
I daily a 996.1, C4, Tip, live in Surrey, traffic dreadful, love it, right car, right gearbox - for what it's used for.Sure, when stuck in traffic auto would be easier. But these cars come with various downsides and expenses. All justified for the driving experience. To spec the car for driving in traffic at the expense of what it's best at is, like I said, a fundamental mismatch. And the E38 is an example of a bad idea, not a good one. The fact it exists doesn't mean a manual limo makes sense! Love the E38. Wouldn't for one moment want a manual E38.
There are always compromises, obviously. I'm not saying that no concessions should be made for daily usability and totally agree that's what makes Porsches great - they are so very usable. It's exactly why I daily Porches, they're practical, usable, well packaged and they drive great. And if an auto 996 is what somebody likes, who can argue with that on a personal preference basis?
But there's also got to be a point where you've gone too far, hasn't there? Why not drop in a four-pot turbo diesel good for 300k miles without the needing major maintenance? It could do with a bit more room inside, so let's make it a four door. And at this point, the rear-engine thing is really messing up the luggage space, so let's stick the dag-dag in the front. Now you've got your ultimate daily driving
Basically, if you prefer the Tip blatting down your favourite road that would seem odd to me personally but it would be coherent. What seems harder to grasp is buying a sports car and then speccing the powertrain for sitting in traffic.
A topic that will never be settled, obviously. Find it completely baffling that anyone would want a torque converter in a car like a 996, I find it such a miserable experience, but some people clearly like 'em. No wonder people can't agree on politics with such gaping chasms when it comes to trivia like Porsche powertrains!
Specific drives, 986S, manual, recaros, mapped, MO30, short shifter, right car, right gearbox - for what it's used for.
Both supernumerary in reality, but I love them both.....
Each to their own.
I’m lucky enough to have a manual C2 997 and an SLK 55 with the 7g gearbox, the one up from the 5g in the 996.2 & 997.1’s. The TIp can be engaging and it is much easier to drive, switch off and listen to the radio or the engine. It’s easier. You can’t switch off with the manual; you’re constantly engaged, deciding when to shift up, rev matching on the way down and making sure you’re in the right gear before taking a blind bend. One is constantly gauging what the car is doing, its body language etc. - you don’t need to do that with an auto.
The manual also needs to warm up. The shifts are difficult when cold, smooth when up to temperature, direct, mechanical, awesome, that’s the trade off.
So which one is better? The market values manuals higher than TIPs - who am I to argue.
The manual also needs to warm up. The shifts are difficult when cold, smooth when up to temperature, direct, mechanical, awesome, that’s the trade off.
So which one is better? The market values manuals higher than TIPs - who am I to argue.
As an owner of a tiptronic for the first time as a dozen manuals I'm quite happy 90% of the time. Most people complaining about tiptronics haven't learnt to drive them, just used them for a short run.
You must let the gearbox work to its parameters and use the sport settings on the car correctly. The manual buttons need plenty of practice to tune you to the engine torque curve, even a well pedalled manual isn't going to find it easy to leave me .At full chat on the A1 between bursts of speed in auto and sport its ferocious. There is no comparison to the dual clutch but i would go so far as to say the tiptronic is more fun to balance and nearer the spirit of a manual.
Porsche don't build turkeys for the 911.
To qualify thgis I prefer the manual in theory but have found in practice the tiptronic is fun to play with and not a slushmatic Mercedes refugee. I have had plenty of the Merc variety and they are not in any way comparable.
You must let the gearbox work to its parameters and use the sport settings on the car correctly. The manual buttons need plenty of practice to tune you to the engine torque curve, even a well pedalled manual isn't going to find it easy to leave me .At full chat on the A1 between bursts of speed in auto and sport its ferocious. There is no comparison to the dual clutch but i would go so far as to say the tiptronic is more fun to balance and nearer the spirit of a manual.
Porsche don't build turkeys for the 911.
To qualify thgis I prefer the manual in theory but have found in practice the tiptronic is fun to play with and not a slushmatic Mercedes refugee. I have had plenty of the Merc variety and they are not in any way comparable.
I daily my 996.1 C2 Manual Coupe.
Part of me sometimes thinks a Tip would be nice. As would a C4. That is usually if I'm stuck in particularly horrific stop start madness in the depths of winter on some awful road for a prolonged period.
Then the road clears, the sun breaks through the cloud, I drop it into 3rd, the centre counter screams through to 7..... drop into 4th for another surge forward..... and I immediately know I've made the right choice.
That is for me. I find it highly rewarding to 'work hard' to make progress. Other results may vary.
Part of me sometimes thinks a Tip would be nice. As would a C4. That is usually if I'm stuck in particularly horrific stop start madness in the depths of winter on some awful road for a prolonged period.
Then the road clears, the sun breaks through the cloud, I drop it into 3rd, the centre counter screams through to 7..... drop into 4th for another surge forward..... and I immediately know I've made the right choice.
That is for me. I find it highly rewarding to 'work hard' to make progress. Other results may vary.
I have a 2003 996 Carrera 4 Tiptronic and have just fitted paddle shifters to it in place of the daft steering wheel buttons. The actual paddles are taken from a Mercedes C-Class and sit behind the wheel so they are much easier to use and just make more sense. I'll struggle to tell you just how well these have transformed the car. I stick it in 'Manual' for every trip (except heavy traffic - which we don't really get up here in Northumberland anyway). You can hang on to the gears and really wind it up properly. Its improved the car out of sight and is highly recommended.
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