Discussion
BertBert said:
Harris_I said:
I was thinking of ditching my old 996 and trying a modern Evora instead, but this thread is convincing me I need to bring Cobalt Blue out of hibernation in the Spring and apologise for ever thinking of cheating on her.
I decided to make a change and moved my (admittedly 997) GT3 on in favour of getting an Evora. I'm just not sure I can bring myself to do it though!ttdan said:
Not really sure why this would be a good thing :-)
To be fair the Evora is one of the only cars on sale today I would consider.For me, Porsche dealers lost the plot around 2012, after which you had to be a VIP to own the more interesting cars. I don't know if the manufacturer is to be blamed for this but I hate snobbery and I won't play their game. The 996/7 represent the last of the generation who would race their cars at the weekend, then drive them to the office on a Monday, so there's a sort of purity in that.
bigmowley said:
I do agree with the above. I would just add that I find the GT4 is beautifully in that sweet spot so whenever you make a change, roll bars, or camber, or toe you can really feel the difference, and more importantly it seems to react in the way it should react according to the theory. Which is not how I remember the GT3! I got a lot out of playing with the GT4 and setting it up how I wanted it.
Very interesting. I found the same with the GT3. The car was entirely faithful to its set up. As the car evolved in club racing, I played with geometry, tyres, suspension components, aero and weight, and every change was measured against the clock (whilst at the same time learning my own capabilities). I say "I" but really there were some very capable people around explaining things to me, otherwise I would have been completely lost.So now I have this old war horse in my garage and I can't bear to part with it, even though it hasn't been driven since last year. Is it weird to say there's too much of me invested in this car and to sell it would be like selling a part of myself?
Harris_I said:
bigmowley said:
I do agree with the above. I would just add that I find the GT4 is beautifully in that sweet spot so whenever you make a change, roll bars, or camber, or toe you can really feel the difference, and more importantly it seems to react in the way it should react according to the theory. Which is not how I remember the GT3! I got a lot out of playing with the GT4 and setting it up how I wanted it.
Very interesting. I found the same with the GT3. The car was entirely faithful to its set up. As the car evolved in club racing, I played with geometry, tyres, suspension components, aero and weight, and every change was measured against the clock (whilst at the same time learning my own capabilities). I say "I" but really there were some very capable people around explaining things to me, otherwise I would have been completely lost.So now I have this old war horse in my garage and I can't bear to part with it, even though it hasn't been driven since last year. Is it weird to say there's too much of me invested in this car and to sell it would be like selling a part of myself?
Keep the Porsche.
bigmowley said:
Harris_I said:
bigmowley said:
I do agree with the above. I would just add that I find the GT4 is beautifully in that sweet spot so whenever you make a change, roll bars, or camber, or toe you can really feel the difference, and more importantly it seems to react in the way it should react according to the theory. Which is not how I remember the GT3! I got a lot out of playing with the GT4 and setting it up how I wanted it.
Very interesting. I found the same with the GT3. The car was entirely faithful to its set up. As the car evolved in club racing, I played with geometry, tyres, suspension components, aero and weight, and every change was measured against the clock (whilst at the same time learning my own capabilities). I say "I" but really there were some very capable people around explaining things to me, otherwise I would have been completely lost.So now I have this old war horse in my garage and I can't bear to part with it, even though it hasn't been driven since last year. Is it weird to say there's too much of me invested in this car and to sell it would be like selling a part of myself?
Keep the Porsche.
Mines a old escort which I lusted over when young, no other car will make me smile like she does... people ask why have I kept it for so long and I just smile when asked.
As a close friend says to me, If you know you know.
ttdan said:
BertBert said:
Harris_I said:
I was thinking of ditching my old 996 and trying a modern Evora instead, but this thread is convincing me I need to bring Cobalt Blue out of hibernation in the Spring and apologise for ever thinking of cheating on her.
I decided to make a change and moved my (admittedly 997) GT3 on in favour of getting an Evora. I'm just not sure I can bring myself to do it though!You don't see too many Evoras about but, funnily enough, a very nice blue one arrived at a cafe me and a couple of mates had stopped at on our mtb ride at the weekend. They really do look the business. I like the Elise and Exige anyway, but they are much more 'track' whereas the Evora does an extremely good job of being almost a supercar in looks, for a lot less money.
bigmowley said:
This. But I was avoiding posting in case I upset the 996 fanboys.
Unless it’s a collectors grade example of a 996GT3 then the value of these is pretty much set by the
981 GT4. I have owned them both and given the choice at a similar price point the GT4 is a way better ownership prospect. Especially for track use. In my mind a tidy useable GT3 will sit a few quid below a tidy 981 GT4 for the foreseeable.
I would rather have a 997 GT3 either gen, than a 981GT4 but it’s a much closer call. All IMHO of course.
Edit: just realised most of the debate in here is about values...the below is more the driving experienceUnless it’s a collectors grade example of a 996GT3 then the value of these is pretty much set by the
981 GT4. I have owned them both and given the choice at a similar price point the GT4 is a way better ownership prospect. Especially for track use. In my mind a tidy useable GT3 will sit a few quid below a tidy 981 GT4 for the foreseeable.
I would rather have a 997 GT3 either gen, than a 981GT4 but it’s a much closer call. All IMHO of course.
I respect your opinion and there is no one right answer, we all have our own perspectives.
Of course both are great cars.
I had both 996GT3 and 981GT4 at the same time and frequently took them both to trackdays one the same day (Silverstone, Spa, Nurburgring). My experience was quite opposite to yours.
Disclosure - My 996GT3 was running uprated suspension (Nitron R3 3 way).
I found the GT4 to be very competent and the easier proposition out of the box (refined, new, warranty, smooth, every day useable, etc)...and as people say, you could quickly to get to your & the car's limits on any given day. In the beginning this is quite impressive and a positive thing.
I would then jump in the 996GT3 and push myself to drive it to the same pace (it would take a few more sessions to match the GT4 time on any given day). The 996 would be more intriguing, more feel based, more sensory overload, more time needed, more head scratching, but at the end more rewarding.
Today I still have the 996GT3 and the 981GT4 is long gone.I am fairly sure the 996 GT3 driven well is as quick as (if not quicker) than the GT4. However, this is after a bit of modernisation (eg suspension, motorsport diff) - whereas the GT4 works out of the box. For people who want low hassle - buy, drive, forget - the GT4 will be easier than an older 996. For those that want to immerse themselves in the journey more, the 996 I think will reward more.
My personal characterisation would be that the GT4 is a better road biased proposition (of course it can also be fun on track) whereas the 996 is a lot better for track learning journey and driving improvement (but at the expense of being less of an all rounder).
As I said, no perfect answers...can't go totally wrong either way.
Many of my friends have bought into 996s lately - we run cup 2s, slicks, wets, drive them, trailer them, some have bought cups or manthey special road cars, some have shorter ratio gearboxes, some have removed interior trim out of 996GT3/RS, some are going back to closer to standard spec!. The quicker guys with shorter ratios on slicks will dice with latest machinery depending on driver and weather. In wet conditions on wets, the lightened road 996s (with ac, radio, etc) are dicing not too far off 996cup car pace (of course, doesn't happen quite the same in the dry). Hop out of a white LHD cup car into a white LHD road 996GT3 and you really notice the similarity!
Edited by LaSource on Wednesday 16th December 12:31
LaSource said:
I respect your opinion and there is no one right answer, we all have our own perspectives.
Of course both are great cars.
I had both 996GT3 and 981GT4 at the same time
Great post. Agree, there are no rights and wrongs, we're trading differences on great, epic cars.Of course both are great cars.
I had both 996GT3 and 981GT4 at the same time
FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
A good friend of mine had an Evora S which I've driven extensively and back to back with various Porsches I've owned (on both road trips and track days). Steering feel and ride/handling balance are the stand out features. Engine could be better but the charge cooled versions have largely sorted that. I would describe the sound of the 400/410/430 as two-thirds of a 458 Italia - it's really good!
It hasn't quite got the same polish to the ergonomics as any Porsche - but as a pure tool for driving it is a fun place to be. On UK B roads I would say it excels. On track you think it will be a little too soft but actually copes surprisingly well. It has a little more compliance than an Exige V6, for example which is slightly trickier at the limit but still pretty benign. On certain tracks that are not exactly smooth (e.g. Caste Combe), that's an advantage.
Lotus get hammered for reliability by "the internet" but the expensive oily bits are generally bullet proof.
In many ways I see the Evora as equivalent to the type of sports car Porsche used to make - more weighted towards driver enjoyment than grand tourer levels of comfort and useability. It's kind of half way between Cayman and 911 since it's not really a useable 2+2 and they probably should have designed it from the outset to be a 2 seater.
Anyhow, in summary, it's a good car - if you get the chance to drive one, do it. It's a very surprising package and pretty rare, which is another plus.
It hasn't quite got the same polish to the ergonomics as any Porsche - but as a pure tool for driving it is a fun place to be. On UK B roads I would say it excels. On track you think it will be a little too soft but actually copes surprisingly well. It has a little more compliance than an Exige V6, for example which is slightly trickier at the limit but still pretty benign. On certain tracks that are not exactly smooth (e.g. Caste Combe), that's an advantage.
Lotus get hammered for reliability by "the internet" but the expensive oily bits are generally bullet proof.
In many ways I see the Evora as equivalent to the type of sports car Porsche used to make - more weighted towards driver enjoyment than grand tourer levels of comfort and useability. It's kind of half way between Cayman and 911 since it's not really a useable 2+2 and they probably should have designed it from the outset to be a 2 seater.
Anyhow, in summary, it's a good car - if you get the chance to drive one, do it. It's a very surprising package and pretty rare, which is another plus.
Digga said:
Great post. Agree, there are no rights and wrongs, we're trading differences on great, epic cars.
FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
Stop asking tricky questions!!FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
However, if being measured by pure driving experience at the limit, then I'd say the 996 is materially ahead of the 997. They really are that good especially as you refine some of the older stuff.
If just a roadtrip to a car meet with rows of instatubers...then yes, the 997 is better suited
(actually most of them probably wouldn't notice the 997 either!)
LaSource said:
Sound advice and the usual unbelievably good photography
I would just like to point out that if you've watched any of LaSource's YT vids, you'll know he can really pedal, which I think is a relevant point when comparing track times 996 GT3 vs GT4. For 95% of keen drivers, an out-of-the-box GT4 will be quicker on track regardless of the spec the 996 GT3 is running.If you're using the GT4 purely on the road - ditch the Cup2s and run PS4S or equivalent, it will be a more involving and enjoyable driving experience IMHO.
LaSource said:
Digga said:
Great post. Agree, there are no rights and wrongs, we're trading differences on great, epic cars.
FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
Stop asking tricky questions!!FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
However, if being measured by pure driving experience at the limit, then I'd say the 996 is materially ahead of the 997. They really are that good especially as you refine some of the older stuff.
If just a roadtrip to a car meet with rows of instatubers...then yes, the 997 is better suited
(actually most of them probably wouldn't notice the 997 either!)
For me, the main difference is that the 997 can do a decent job on track while still being road friendly. My 996, with the mods I put on it to make it really good on track, was not a friendly road car.
Mitch911 said:
LaSource said:
Digga said:
Great post. Agree, there are no rights and wrongs, we're trading differences on great, epic cars.
FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
Stop asking tricky questions!!FWIW, you also run a 997.2 GT3 RS. Where do you 'put' that in terms of on track experience? Is your 996 sufficiently well honed to be the more enjoyable proposition?
However, if being measured by pure driving experience at the limit, then I'd say the 996 is materially ahead of the 997. They really are that good especially as you refine some of the older stuff.
If just a roadtrip to a car meet with rows of instatubers...then yes, the 997 is better suited
(actually most of them probably wouldn't notice the 997 either!)
For me, the main difference is that the 997 can do a decent job on track while still being road friendly. My 996, with the mods I put on it to make it really good on track, was not a friendly road car.
Digga said:
I guess also that all of these cars can be made to work 'better' on track by swapping/adding the right parts. Shocks, tyres, lightweight flywheels (some already have this) etc. etc. are going to hone them closer to the owner's ideal.
Definitely, I think we can make statements about how factory standard cars compare, but once you start modding them, it’s really about each individual car.I would love to try a GT4 with as much added trick bits as LaSource and I put on our 996s. To me, the mid engine platform is just an out and out better starting point. Obviously the engine then pulls you in another direction.
I prefer a rear engined format - especially for racing. You do have to work a lot harder to get to the apex but from then on the traction advantage really pays off, especially after the first few laps when tyres are past thier best.
Far more fun driving a rear engined car. You cant play with the weight in a mid engined car, you just end up unsettling the car so it tells you how it needs to be driven. There are a lot more options in a rear engined car but you need to learn how and when to exploit them and - in my experience - thats one of the most rewarding and engaging experiences that driving has to offer.
Far more fun driving a rear engined car. You cant play with the weight in a mid engined car, you just end up unsettling the car so it tells you how it needs to be driven. There are a lot more options in a rear engined car but you need to learn how and when to exploit them and - in my experience - thats one of the most rewarding and engaging experiences that driving has to offer.
Mitch911 said:
Definitely, I think we can make statements about how factory standard cars compare, but once you start modding them, it’s really about each individual car.
My 'to do' list, which would then bring my 997.1 GT3 to, where I feel is my goal, is now:- Adjustable shocks
- Light weight flywheel
- Surface Transform Bakes
- Gearbox ratios - possibly
The brakes on it are good. I swapped the OEM PCCBs out for Alcon steels, purely because those early carbon items don't do track use, but I did track them a couple of times (carefully) and loved the bite and power. Even if the steels are easier to modulate, I still think I;d like to try carbon for their 'unburstable' feel.
Flywheel comes with clutch change i think, but then, do I also get gearbox stripped to check and do the ratios?...
Shocks, I keep circling round all the options....
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