911 ST backdate....
Discussion
blackmamba said:
I think the point here is if you buy someone else’s build you need to go in with your eyes open and if you like it and the numbers make sense, great! If you want a bespoke build and have the details as you want, it doesn’t come cheap.
There Is plenty of rubbish out there and lots of lovely cars. You pays your money and takes your choice.
In a nutshell.There Is plenty of rubbish out there and lots of lovely cars. You pays your money and takes your choice.
blackmamba said:
I think the point here is if you buy someone else’s build you need to go in with your eyes open and if you like it and the numbers make sense, great! If you want a bespoke build and have the details as you want, it doesn’t come cheap.
There Is plenty of rubbish out there and lots of lovely cars. You pays your money and takes your choice.
amen to that.There Is plenty of rubbish out there and lots of lovely cars. You pays your money and takes your choice.
most people just want a car to look like an early car and maybe some buckets and the air cooled burble is always there,
get a nice donor at 50k and spent 30k on arches paintwork and interior and thats all the car many porsche fans want.
There will always be people who want more though.
Fabulous car, mintbird!
Saw a few backdates at Silverstone yesterday. Most looked as rough as a dogs arse. Awful uneven shut lines between bonnet and wings, poorly aligned doors that stood proud of the body work and gaps you could get your finger in... with asking prices well in to six figures.
Saw a few backdates at Silverstone yesterday. Most looked as rough as a dogs arse. Awful uneven shut lines between bonnet and wings, poorly aligned doors that stood proud of the body work and gaps you could get your finger in... with asking prices well in to six figures.
Chris Stott said:
Saw a few backdates at Silverstone yesterday. Most looked as rough as a dogs arse. Awful uneven shut lines between bonnet and wings, poorly aligned doors that stood proud of the body work and gaps you could get your finger in... with asking prices well in to six figures.
When I went to the Bicester Sunday Scramble in January it was very similar....Singer, Oshe, Paul Stephens etc etc. Singer was head and shoulders above everything else...I can see why people pay the money.Redarress said:
I do struggle to see how build cost are so high
Is it mainly the cost of labour or the cost of rare or difficult to source correct year parts
Every part of it, the bits, the labour the "Porsche premium"Is it mainly the cost of labour or the cost of rare or difficult to source correct year parts
One thing to note... getting an old 911 properly inspected is quite hard. I got a well known name who contracted to a leading light from PCGB and the inspection was a joke. The car fortunately is great, but he didn't spot any of the bits that weren't so great and even used a boilerplate report that waxed-lyrical about the non-existent pressure fed tensioners. I don't think he did any more that walk round it and talk to the trade seller who had restored it.
Get someone to look who will really go into it and is not afraid to put it up on ramps, do the compressions and leakdowns and take the wheels off... and more.
Bert
WizzBang said:
Taffy66 said:
...I really like the look of a Slate grey Steve McQueen 'Le Mans' look 911S but with some modern driving parts to make it more enjoyable to drive..
Like this one for sale on 28 July: https://silverstoneauctions.com/view/content/25942...
Redarress said:
Ok like most I really love the look of old air cooled pork
I do struggle to see how build cost are so high
I GLOLd at that. I do struggle to see how build cost are so high
I've just nearly completed a backdate 911 after 3 years. I work in the auto trade and although I wouldn't say ive had mates rates with stuff I knew roughly what I was doing before I started despite this being my first classic car.
So the most important thing is to start with a solid base car. My 83SC was bought via one of the owners clubs and is totally solid with no welding on it at all. Avoiding chasing tin worm will get you off to a good start. Buy a high mileage car as high as you can find. One of the best bits of advice I got was to assume most of the old porkers have been clocked. Bit odd how almost all cars have circa 100k on the clock. Mine has 205 which is probably closer to a real average mileage for an 80s 911. Mine had all its original wings etc so when you see "80k" cars that have had rotted out wings done etc it's food for thought. I saw several cars that had quite blatantly been done back in the day.
The biggest single cost will be painting it assuming you aren't doing engine work. I've had mixed success with this area having to relocate the car from one place to another to speed up the process. Got a show level paint job for £4500 but have also had to pay for it to be built back up. My total spend has 10k this includes paint, fabrication of a half cage, bucket seats, wing extensions, lights, horn grilles, grp bonnet bumpers and duck tail.
I'm in the North of England where we don't have 10 grand resprays so that's probably one of the biggest helpers in keeping costs in check. I would imagine in the South east you would pay double what I have for the same project.
There's a lot that can go wrong with unexpected costs and I've been quite lucky in this area. I think it's worth not skimping on your base car as welding and engine work are the two bits that will cause most increases in cost if you get it wrong. In the southesst you could do 30k on a modest backdate I think. My car is a bit outlaw but if you wanted to have all the proper seats/clocks etc that's going to add to it as would having another engine or rebuild/overhaul. I'll stick some pics up when I get mine back but I think you'll be impressed what I've done for £10k
Redarress said:
Specifically what parts are difficult to source then ?
Depends on the age of the car,Lights, carbs, airbox , steering wheel etc from 65,66 cars would make your eyes water.
Labour will make your eyes water
Paint will make your eyes water
Engine costs will make you eyes water
Now even a donar car make you eyes water.
There has been a big change in the economics IMO in the early 911 restoration market over the last 5 years and to a lesser extent the 5 years before that. I know one classic specialist who now no longer takes on restoration commissions as a result.
Previously parts from Porsche were reasonably priced (for Porsche) and there was an OK chance of finding parts no longer available out on the second hand market. Prices from Porsche have increased exponentially in that time - literally everything has gone through the roof (930 brakes now - ouch!!, even mundane items such as M6 washers are eyebrow raising). In addition second hand parts have become increasingly unobtainable so anything no longer available from Porsche has increased hugely in price (try finding an early crankshaft, MFI pump or throttle bodies these days) or if a part is still available new then the secondhand price has been dragged up by Porsche's price rises. Third party remanufacturers have filled some of the gaps in the hard to find parts but price their products accordingly.
A car finished about 7 years ago and had taken a few years to gather all the correct secondhand bits together. RHD 2.4E with some front end damage (acquired 10 years ago) converted into a full 2.7RS clone. All the right parts - correct engine, correct shell changes, correct rear suspension mods, wheels, etc. FIA papers to compete in historic events. Total cost around 75K. Absolute steal compared to today's costs for this.
A recent restoration just being finished. RHD 2.4S matching numbers in a nice colour. All top quality work. Owner would make a loss if they sold the car and that is on a 2.4S.
Given all the above you can see why going period correct for an ST type car is very expensive these days.
Previously parts from Porsche were reasonably priced (for Porsche) and there was an OK chance of finding parts no longer available out on the second hand market. Prices from Porsche have increased exponentially in that time - literally everything has gone through the roof (930 brakes now - ouch!!, even mundane items such as M6 washers are eyebrow raising). In addition second hand parts have become increasingly unobtainable so anything no longer available from Porsche has increased hugely in price (try finding an early crankshaft, MFI pump or throttle bodies these days) or if a part is still available new then the secondhand price has been dragged up by Porsche's price rises. Third party remanufacturers have filled some of the gaps in the hard to find parts but price their products accordingly.
A car finished about 7 years ago and had taken a few years to gather all the correct secondhand bits together. RHD 2.4E with some front end damage (acquired 10 years ago) converted into a full 2.7RS clone. All the right parts - correct engine, correct shell changes, correct rear suspension mods, wheels, etc. FIA papers to compete in historic events. Total cost around 75K. Absolute steal compared to today's costs for this.
A recent restoration just being finished. RHD 2.4S matching numbers in a nice colour. All top quality work. Owner would make a loss if they sold the car and that is on a 2.4S.
Given all the above you can see why going period correct for an ST type car is very expensive these days.
Porsche911R said:
Redarress said:
Specifically what parts are difficult to source then ?
Depends on the age of the car,Lights, carbs, airbox , steering wheel etc from 65,66 cars would make your eyes water.
Labour will make your eyes water
Paint will make your eyes water
Engine costs will make you eyes water
Now even a donar car make you eyes water.
IMI A said:
Mintbirds is a no brainer not just money wise but theres a lot of knowledge and know how required to outlaw these early 911/912. Really does look fabulous. Bet she goes amazing and you'll be getting out of the car hardwired to that car with sweaty palms.
Not only that but to go down this road yourself would take an inordinate amount of time and embuggerance to get this point. At £150K it is a bargain if you ask me!Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff