Discussion
Geneve said:
Steve Rance said:
GT3 should be all about the driving experience.
Which begs the question - where can you exploit the GT3’s ‘driving experience’ - on the road or on the track ?Hence why we await the proper road tests of the 992.
Geneve said:
Which begs the question - where can you exploit the GT3’s ‘driving experience’ - on the road or on the track ?
Yep. A good car is fun and rewarding at all speeds not just near and at its optimum performance window. Maybe It’s been a while since the GT3 fitted into that category. A well sorted aircooled or early GT3 fits that badge far better. Steve Rance said:
Geneve said:
Which begs the question - where can you exploit the GT3’s ‘driving experience’ - on the road or on the track ?
Yep. A good car is fun and rewarding at all speeds not just near and at its optimum performance window. Maybe It’s been a while since the GT3 fitted into that category. A well sorted aircooled or early GT3 fits that badge far better. Also completely agree. And I say that having had most of the GT cars from ‘73 M471 RS to 991.2 Touring.
Some people will never ‘get it’, but the faster and more technically advanced the later car’s become, the less relevance they have to being exploitable, safely and legally, on UK roads (and I include the IoM).
Their purpose is the track. Yes, you get a frustrating sense of their capabilities on the road, but Porsche, and their ‘back catalogue’ offer better road cars, IMO.
Some people will never ‘get it’, but the faster and more technically advanced the later car’s become, the less relevance they have to being exploitable, safely and legally, on UK roads (and I include the IoM).
Their purpose is the track. Yes, you get a frustrating sense of their capabilities on the road, but Porsche, and their ‘back catalogue’ offer better road cars, IMO.
Steve Rance said:
Geneve said:
Which begs the question - where can you exploit the GT3’s ‘driving experience’ - on the road or on the track ?
Yep. A good car is fun and rewarding at all speeds not just near and at its optimum performance window. Maybe It’s been a while since the GT3 fitted into that category. A well sorted aircooled or early GT3 fits that badge far better. And the noise of that 3RS even with OPF. First time I was really hearing it from outside vs. as a driver. A dream. So whomever is concerned about the 992 GT3 OPF muted sound... I wouldn’t worry. Yes some pops are missing and the limited to 4K rpm is somehow a loss vs non OPF. But when it screams... it really does. Whereas the GT2 RS barks. But a powerful and equally intoxicating one (ok am off topic!).
Steve Rance said:
Can’t see them from the inside. GT3 should be all about the driving experience. These days long forgotten..
Always the statement banded about when the car is butt ugly. Respectfully I disagree with that statement. For me, the GT3 previous to the 992 has slowly evolved and became fully refined in the 991.2. Proportionally it looks superb.
The 992 is like when celeb women start with the injections, fillers and tucks; they look similar but more cartoon like with emphasised sticky out bits, desperately trying to hold on to that natural beauty they once had.
Im with Steve Rance. Far too much concern on here about how the car looks.
I started my GT3/RS journey with the 964RS. It was a crap road car.
My 993RS was better on the road and prettier. But it was still a bit crap on our broken B roads.
My MK1 996 GT3 was a tough pill to swallow. It was ugly but it went like sh*t off a shovel. That was the first GT3 car and it was built to homologate a race car. Its roots were the track not the road. Porsche made no pretenses that it was a comfortable ride. It was a bit clinical compared to the 993 and didnt sound as good. It was just passable as a quick road car but tramlined and bottomed out like the earlier cars. It was the first Porsche product I actually wanted to take to teh track.
I never owned a 997 GT3/RS but I drove a few on fast back roads. They were still too stiff for B roads at pace, tramlining, darting here and there etc.
The 991.1 GT3 was the first GT product that rode as comfortable a 997 Carrera on the road but was like a scalped at the track. I wasn't fussed with the PDK on the road. This was really a fairly sanitized road car that was also capable of doing fast laps. But it was engineered the opposite way as the first GT3 in my opinion (i.e. not a race car made to be passable on the road for homology). Did a trip around Europe in it on delivery then 20+ days at track in NZ.
My 991.2 GT3 was more of the same 991 GT3. This time with manual box to get a bit of the rawness back and flush some of the "sanitization". Almost 20 track days on I think the manual box lends itself well to the road, less for the track.
Now the 992 GT3. Finally the product is aligned with the race (Cup) car more closely again! The engine, the suspension and the optics. Better still they say its a bit more focused and not as good as before for cars and coffee. Yay!
As for the looks. Ive been through this so many times and Im sure you guys have too. Mine gets built in four weeks and Ive never seen one in the flesh. Im sure it will look quite outrageous in the real. I like the front, not a huge fan of the rear but given it will live mostly in its natural habitat I wont be looking at its rear (others maybe!) LOL. Within no time we will accept the optic and shortly thereafter all other will appear dated. The 992.2 will smooth out the design language and it will become mature. Everyone will say the 992.2 GT3 is "sexy" (just like everyone at the track laughed at my 991.1 GT3 for having a "nana box" and now all those guys drive PDK 991 GT3/RS!). Time will take care of this one as it often does....
Finally Porsche have converged again back where they started with the 996 MK1 GT3. This singular focus is what interests me. I have a car for taking me to the cinema.
The more people that dont buy this car - the better it becomes for me! If no one bought it, only me, Id feel really special like I owned a Singer ha ha.
For the last two generations (991) the GT3 has become softer.
Other brand cars are slowly able to achieve headlines on road and track.
Porsche have been forced this time to sharpen the knife. Give it the handle from the motorsports product and move it further towards one end of the bell curve rather than have it sitting in the middle. For the guys on here that own these cars but don't take them to the track there will be a touring, a Sport Classic maybe even a 50th anniversary RS (collectable but of little interest to track guys).
The day I stop my regular track driving will be the day I stop buying GT3. There are many better road cars that would look more interesting in my garage for this kind of money (second hand but not so old).
Just another guys opinion...
I started my GT3/RS journey with the 964RS. It was a crap road car.
My 993RS was better on the road and prettier. But it was still a bit crap on our broken B roads.
My MK1 996 GT3 was a tough pill to swallow. It was ugly but it went like sh*t off a shovel. That was the first GT3 car and it was built to homologate a race car. Its roots were the track not the road. Porsche made no pretenses that it was a comfortable ride. It was a bit clinical compared to the 993 and didnt sound as good. It was just passable as a quick road car but tramlined and bottomed out like the earlier cars. It was the first Porsche product I actually wanted to take to teh track.
I never owned a 997 GT3/RS but I drove a few on fast back roads. They were still too stiff for B roads at pace, tramlining, darting here and there etc.
The 991.1 GT3 was the first GT product that rode as comfortable a 997 Carrera on the road but was like a scalped at the track. I wasn't fussed with the PDK on the road. This was really a fairly sanitized road car that was also capable of doing fast laps. But it was engineered the opposite way as the first GT3 in my opinion (i.e. not a race car made to be passable on the road for homology). Did a trip around Europe in it on delivery then 20+ days at track in NZ.
My 991.2 GT3 was more of the same 991 GT3. This time with manual box to get a bit of the rawness back and flush some of the "sanitization". Almost 20 track days on I think the manual box lends itself well to the road, less for the track.
Now the 992 GT3. Finally the product is aligned with the race (Cup) car more closely again! The engine, the suspension and the optics. Better still they say its a bit more focused and not as good as before for cars and coffee. Yay!
As for the looks. Ive been through this so many times and Im sure you guys have too. Mine gets built in four weeks and Ive never seen one in the flesh. Im sure it will look quite outrageous in the real. I like the front, not a huge fan of the rear but given it will live mostly in its natural habitat I wont be looking at its rear (others maybe!) LOL. Within no time we will accept the optic and shortly thereafter all other will appear dated. The 992.2 will smooth out the design language and it will become mature. Everyone will say the 992.2 GT3 is "sexy" (just like everyone at the track laughed at my 991.1 GT3 for having a "nana box" and now all those guys drive PDK 991 GT3/RS!). Time will take care of this one as it often does....
Finally Porsche have converged again back where they started with the 996 MK1 GT3. This singular focus is what interests me. I have a car for taking me to the cinema.
The more people that dont buy this car - the better it becomes for me! If no one bought it, only me, Id feel really special like I owned a Singer ha ha.
For the last two generations (991) the GT3 has become softer.
Other brand cars are slowly able to achieve headlines on road and track.
Porsche have been forced this time to sharpen the knife. Give it the handle from the motorsports product and move it further towards one end of the bell curve rather than have it sitting in the middle. For the guys on here that own these cars but don't take them to the track there will be a touring, a Sport Classic maybe even a 50th anniversary RS (collectable but of little interest to track guys).
The day I stop my regular track driving will be the day I stop buying GT3. There are many better road cars that would look more interesting in my garage for this kind of money (second hand but not so old).
Just another guys opinion...
Edited by Macca993 on Tuesday 4th May 03:03
Macca993 said:
"For the last two generations (991) the GT3 has become softer."
- Do you driven 991.2 RS too? That was the most hardcore to me of the 991 line. Feels stiffer than 997RS.
"The day I stop my regular track driving will be the day I stop buying GT3. There are many better road cars that would look more interesting in my garage for this kind of money (second hand but not so old)."
- What cars you think?
- Do you driven 991.2 RS too? That was the most hardcore to me of the 991 line. Feels stiffer than 997RS.
"The day I stop my regular track driving will be the day I stop buying GT3. There are many better road cars that would look more interesting in my garage for this kind of money (second hand but not so old)."
- What cars you think?
Edited by Macca993 on Tuesday 4th May 03:03
Hi DK7.
I have seat time at road and track in 991.1 GT3RS. I found that car had better road compliance than my 991.1 GT3. I think a number of motor noters back in the day shared a similar view. It was likely the keeper springs which they carried forward to the 991.2 GT3....
Unfortunately, no I have never driven a 991.2 GT3RS on road or track.
What I find most frustrating when reading the forums is you get a real sense immediately of folks defending their spend. Its hard to fund an unbiased POV. If you have a 991.2 GT3 and you are soon to receive a 992 GT3 you are at the very least open minded and as no one has driven one yet, at least willing to have faith that they haven't cocked up the recipe. But I hear alot of comments from folks defending the 991.2 GT3/RS without equivocation. How can one do that if they have not yet driven the car or even seen any particular in depth review (lets face it ever review bar the one in Germany below so far has been the same stuff rehashed?
I have seat time at road and track in 991.1 GT3RS. I found that car had better road compliance than my 991.1 GT3. I think a number of motor noters back in the day shared a similar view. It was likely the keeper springs which they carried forward to the 991.2 GT3....
Unfortunately, no I have never driven a 991.2 GT3RS on road or track.
What I find most frustrating when reading the forums is you get a real sense immediately of folks defending their spend. Its hard to fund an unbiased POV. If you have a 991.2 GT3 and you are soon to receive a 992 GT3 you are at the very least open minded and as no one has driven one yet, at least willing to have faith that they haven't cocked up the recipe. But I hear alot of comments from folks defending the 991.2 GT3/RS without equivocation. How can one do that if they have not yet driven the car or even seen any particular in depth review (lets face it ever review bar the one in Germany below so far has been the same stuff rehashed?
This is an interesting review.
You'll need a grasp of German (thanks to my wife for the translation!).
The car being tested on track is the manual 992 GT3. Very nice it sounds too!
However the really interesting stuff happens when the young journalist bumps into Jorg Bergmiester at the track and asks if he can go for a hot lap in a press car. Its a very casual day by the looks with no large support or film crew. Jorg allows the journalist to put his Race Navigator in the car and on his second lap out he virtually matches the record at the track set last year by the 991.2 GT3RS MR car! 1.43.41 vs 1.43.19. This is the stock press car but with the CupR tyres naturally. Impressively he does this in a T short and no helmet on his second lap.
What is fascinating is this video and one other when you hear what Jorg, AP and Rohl are saying about the car candidly sometimes in the background off camera you realize there have been some significant cant steps forward with this chassis. I know it wont make any difference for the cars and coffee crowd but its pretty exciting for those of us who go once a month to the track...
Sorry, its a long clip and in German but very interesting if you havent seen the manual in action at the track or want to learn about some of the additional chassis settings via the PCM by AP who is passing by on the day.
If you want to see Jorgs MR equaling casual lap time then go to 25.00 mins. Im sure he could do better with a fresh set of tyres, a race suit and a fraction more commitment!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejm5-xiYQbM
You'll need a grasp of German (thanks to my wife for the translation!).
The car being tested on track is the manual 992 GT3. Very nice it sounds too!
However the really interesting stuff happens when the young journalist bumps into Jorg Bergmiester at the track and asks if he can go for a hot lap in a press car. Its a very casual day by the looks with no large support or film crew. Jorg allows the journalist to put his Race Navigator in the car and on his second lap out he virtually matches the record at the track set last year by the 991.2 GT3RS MR car! 1.43.41 vs 1.43.19. This is the stock press car but with the CupR tyres naturally. Impressively he does this in a T short and no helmet on his second lap.
What is fascinating is this video and one other when you hear what Jorg, AP and Rohl are saying about the car candidly sometimes in the background off camera you realize there have been some significant cant steps forward with this chassis. I know it wont make any difference for the cars and coffee crowd but its pretty exciting for those of us who go once a month to the track...
Sorry, its a long clip and in German but very interesting if you havent seen the manual in action at the track or want to learn about some of the additional chassis settings via the PCM by AP who is passing by on the day.
If you want to see Jorgs MR equaling casual lap time then go to 25.00 mins. Im sure he could do better with a fresh set of tyres, a race suit and a fraction more commitment!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejm5-xiYQbM
Porsche care what the car looks like and always have. Granted, form should always follow function, and their approach to industrial design is one of the main factors why I drive a 911. Too much one way you end up with a McLaren, too much the other way and you get Italian exotica. Neither of which appeals to me.
For me, Porsche have always got the balance right, until the 992.
For me, Porsche have always got the balance right, until the 992.
Good question about what cars. If I take 150K GBP I guess I could have a 458 for nice weekend fast road drives with my mates. Whats left over then maybe add an Alpine 110 or Yaris. I would love to try an F12 but to be fair a bit reserved about the backlash that happens with a modern Fezza downunder.
Id love a 458 speciale but those are out of budget now.
One days I think a new Aston Vantage as a road car and a S2 Elise with Honda supercharged K20 drivetrain for fun back roads or occasional days when Im at the track instructing and can fit in a few hot laps.
I always liked the spyder variants although Ive never owned a drop top. I felt the 981/718 Spyder with manual and buckets could probably be a great back road drive car and I think they are pretty too. There would be enough left over for a new lotus, Yaris GR or maybe an oldtimer modern classic as well.
The new Lotus Emira could be worth a look when it breaks cover. I have a good amount of time in Elise, Evora and Exige om road and a little on track and I really love the low weight and how you have to work very smoothly to get them to be quick. They can punch way above their weight.
If I had 150K GBP and its wasnt to be spent on a GT3 I would still need a car that could go to the track every now and again (maybe a couple times a year) as Im quite involved with the track and get lots of free opportunity to use it. The lotus or something similar would certainly fit that remit. Maybe an Alpine but I think too soft. I dont like trailering cars so it has to get there under its own steam.
I really love my Giulia Quad and have had it for over four years now. Its a great mile muncher too. Wolf in sheeps clothing. But its not track durable I found.
Id love a 458 speciale but those are out of budget now.
One days I think a new Aston Vantage as a road car and a S2 Elise with Honda supercharged K20 drivetrain for fun back roads or occasional days when Im at the track instructing and can fit in a few hot laps.
I always liked the spyder variants although Ive never owned a drop top. I felt the 981/718 Spyder with manual and buckets could probably be a great back road drive car and I think they are pretty too. There would be enough left over for a new lotus, Yaris GR or maybe an oldtimer modern classic as well.
The new Lotus Emira could be worth a look when it breaks cover. I have a good amount of time in Elise, Evora and Exige om road and a little on track and I really love the low weight and how you have to work very smoothly to get them to be quick. They can punch way above their weight.
If I had 150K GBP and its wasnt to be spent on a GT3 I would still need a car that could go to the track every now and again (maybe a couple times a year) as Im quite involved with the track and get lots of free opportunity to use it. The lotus or something similar would certainly fit that remit. Maybe an Alpine but I think too soft. I dont like trailering cars so it has to get there under its own steam.
I really love my Giulia Quad and have had it for over four years now. Its a great mile muncher too. Wolf in sheeps clothing. But its not track durable I found.
BorkBorkBork said:
Porsche care what the car looks like and always have. Granted, form should always follow function, and their approach to industrial design is one of the main factors why I drive a 911. Too much one way you end up with a McLaren, too much the other way and you get Italian exotica. Neither of which appeals to me.
For me, Porsche have always got the balance right, until the 992.
When I go to the track and I watch a race I look at how the car performs. If its a fast car I think "yeah, thats a really well put together race package". Maybe the looks are on the list but it would be second or thirds. For me, Porsche have always got the balance right, until the 992.
The GT3 has never been teh bets looking Porsche in the 911 range IMO. the 996 Turbo and 996 C2/4S were so much better looking for me than my 996.1 GT3. I dont like winds much. Ferdis son designed the 901 without a wing and for me thats what it should be. None of my road 911s have had a wing. But for the GT3 this is what you are buying into. Aero for high speed corning. Its function over form as it should always be with this type of product.
IMO 992 GT3 is function of form more than many before. Whilst its always nice to have both Ill always take function over form for this product set than the other way around. If you want a pretty 911 then the C4S or Turbo is probably a better looking car...
Macca993 said:
This is an interesting review.
You'll need a grasp of German (thanks to my wife for the translation!).
The car being tested on track is the manual 992 GT3. Very nice it sounds too!
However the really interesting stuff happens when the young journalist bumps into Jorg Bergmiester at the track and asks if he can go for a hot lap in a press car. Its a very casual day by the looks with no large support or film crew. Jorg allows the journalist to put his Race Navigator in the car and on his second lap out he virtually matches the record at the track set last year by the 991.2 GT3RS MR car! 1.43.41 vs 1.43.19. This is the stock press car but with the CupR tyres naturally. Impressively he does this in a T short and no helmet on his second lap.
What is fascinating is this video and one other when you hear what Jorg, AP and Rohl are saying about the car candidly sometimes in the background off camera you realize there have been some significant cant steps forward with this chassis. I know it wont make any difference for the cars and coffee crowd but its pretty exciting for those of us who go once a month to the track...
Sorry, its a long clip and in German but very interesting if you havent seen the manual in action at the track or want to learn about some of the additional chassis settings via the PCM by AP who is passing by on the day.
If you want to see Jorgs MR equaling casual lap time then go to 25.00 mins. Im sure he could do better with a fresh set of tyres, a race suit and a fraction more commitment!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejm5-xiYQbM
Is this not a load of marketing crap with cup r tyres that wont last you a good day on track, why not do the ring and hock etc times on slicks!You'll need a grasp of German (thanks to my wife for the translation!).
The car being tested on track is the manual 992 GT3. Very nice it sounds too!
However the really interesting stuff happens when the young journalist bumps into Jorg Bergmiester at the track and asks if he can go for a hot lap in a press car. Its a very casual day by the looks with no large support or film crew. Jorg allows the journalist to put his Race Navigator in the car and on his second lap out he virtually matches the record at the track set last year by the 991.2 GT3RS MR car! 1.43.41 vs 1.43.19. This is the stock press car but with the CupR tyres naturally. Impressively he does this in a T short and no helmet on his second lap.
What is fascinating is this video and one other when you hear what Jorg, AP and Rohl are saying about the car candidly sometimes in the background off camera you realize there have been some significant cant steps forward with this chassis. I know it wont make any difference for the cars and coffee crowd but its pretty exciting for those of us who go once a month to the track...
Sorry, its a long clip and in German but very interesting if you havent seen the manual in action at the track or want to learn about some of the additional chassis settings via the PCM by AP who is passing by on the day.
If you want to see Jorgs MR equaling casual lap time then go to 25.00 mins. Im sure he could do better with a fresh set of tyres, a race suit and a fraction more commitment!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejm5-xiYQbM
Are cup r tyres going to be a sensible price now,i see some are having to take or buy tyres to get home after a track day.
Yellow491 said:
Is this not a load of marketing crap with cup r tyres that wont last you a good day on track, why not do the ring and hock etc times on slicks!
Are cup r tyres going to be a sensible price now,i see some are having to take or buy tyres to get home after a track day.
Im not sure. The 991.2 GT3 RS lap times were Cup2R and so was the 991.2 GT3RS when it launched. The 991.2 GT2RS too. I think that now they have created this tyre and started benchmarking with it they are going to use it to benchmark all GT products moving forward. I suspect this is to improve their rankings against competitors who are also using "cheater" tyres. IN NZ the Michelin rep supplied CupR same price as Cup2 to try and win some business. It was fine until folks worked out they only give their best for half as long so they still worked out more expensive. TrofeoR are more widely used than CupR here by a huge margin. Most use Cup2. Dunlop almost non existent. Are cup r tyres going to be a sensible price now,i see some are having to take or buy tyres to get home after a track day.
Macca993 said:
Hi DK7.
I have seat time at road and track in 991.1 GT3RS. I found that car had better road compliance than my 991.1 GT3. I think a number of motor noters back in the day shared a similar view. It was likely the keeper springs which they carried forward to the 991.2 GT3....
Unfortunately, no I have never driven a 991.2 GT3RS on road or track.
What I find most frustrating when reading the forums is you get a real sense immediately of folks defending their spend. Its hard to fund an unbiased POV. If you have a 991.2 GT3 and you are soon to receive a 992 GT3 you are at the very least open minded and as no one has driven one yet, at least willing to have faith that they haven't cocked up the recipe. But I hear alot of comments from folks defending the 991.2 GT3/RS without equivocation. How can one do that if they have not yet driven the car or even seen any particular in depth review (lets face it ever review bar the one in Germany below so far has been the same stuff rehashed?
Couldn’t agree more with the statement about folks defending there spend, especially when it comes to the 991.2 gt3/ 991.2 GT3 RS. I have seat time at road and track in 991.1 GT3RS. I found that car had better road compliance than my 991.1 GT3. I think a number of motor noters back in the day shared a similar view. It was likely the keeper springs which they carried forward to the 991.2 GT3....
Unfortunately, no I have never driven a 991.2 GT3RS on road or track.
What I find most frustrating when reading the forums is you get a real sense immediately of folks defending their spend. Its hard to fund an unbiased POV. If you have a 991.2 GT3 and you are soon to receive a 992 GT3 you are at the very least open minded and as no one has driven one yet, at least willing to have faith that they haven't cocked up the recipe. But I hear alot of comments from folks defending the 991.2 GT3/RS without equivocation. How can one do that if they have not yet driven the car or even seen any particular in depth review (lets face it ever review bar the one in Germany below so far has been the same stuff rehashed?
Macca993 said:
Yellow491 said:
Is this not a load of marketing crap with cup r tyres that wont last you a good day on track, why not do the ring and hock etc times on slicks!
Are cup r tyres going to be a sensible price now,i see some are having to take or buy tyres to get home after a track day.
Im not sure. The 991.2 GT3 RS lap times were Cup2R and so was the 991.2 GT3RS when it launched. The 991.2 GT2RS too. I think that now they have created this tyre and started benchmarking with it they are going to use it to benchmark all GT products moving forward. I suspect this is to improve their rankings against competitors who are also using "cheater" tyres. IN NZ the Michelin rep supplied CupR same price as Cup2 to try and win some business. It was fine until folks worked out they only give their best for half as long so they still worked out more expensive. TrofeoR are more widely used than CupR here by a huge margin. Most use Cup2. Dunlop almost non existent. Are cup r tyres going to be a sensible price now,i see some are having to take or buy tyres to get home after a track day.
Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff