The great PCCB debate
Discussion
isaldiri said:
Incorrect. And no one needs to use endless pads nevermind the (extremly expensive) endurance racing pads when pagids will do a decent job for less than half the price.
They are about £2k a pair and endless are £800. Both x 2 is circa £6k with new fittings.Endless vs others is the same cost as they last longer but cost more, so over all the same cost vs life.
The supercup brakes are ceramic and cup cars are steels. No difference in performance over the lap or race distance. Super cup times are quicker simply because of F1 rubber.
There’s no real performance argument- unless you are running endurance, very high downforce or the overall chassis weight is very very light. On a big GT car there’s not a logical argument in terms of performance
There’s no real performance argument- unless you are running endurance, very high downforce or the overall chassis weight is very very light. On a big GT car there’s not a logical argument in terms of performance
mm450exc said:
Not worth it at all.
If you track they will not last. £20k = many sets of Alcons with PFC pads.
They are sensitive. You need to pay attention when removing/mounting wheels. So you bet someone will damage them at some point unless you do the work yourself.
The PCCB gotten a lot better compared to the old days. Had them years ago on a 2007 Turbo. Second set of pads lasted two days at SPA. Discs were pretty much done.
On the GT3 I run Alcon/PFC. Works best for me.
Depends on the iteration and intended use. The early SGL rotors were dreadful for wear, had a 2001 GT2 and had a similar experience to you, few days the discs were shot. The fact they promoted them as lasting the life of the car made us assume they were indestructible.If you track they will not last. £20k = many sets of Alcons with PFC pads.
They are sensitive. You need to pay attention when removing/mounting wheels. So you bet someone will damage them at some point unless you do the work yourself.
The PCCB gotten a lot better compared to the old days. Had them years ago on a 2007 Turbo. Second set of pads lasted two days at SPA. Discs were pretty much done.
On the GT3 I run Alcon/PFC. Works best for me.
The process is better now but you are correct, if you use them extensively on track, they will wear out. In this instance better to spec. steels and move to Surface Transforms which are constructed from homogenous carbon fibre rather than the chopped carbon fibre SGL use for a thin friction surface.
Edited by 993rsr on Sunday 3rd March 12:08
Hi my name is Phil, I’m a PCCB Addict.
I like the way they smell, I like the way they taste......
But most of all I like the way they don’t fade, don’t cover the wheel in think globs of crap that are a pain to remove after track days, and the way they lighten up weight where it really counts - whether you personally can feel it or not! ;-)
And more good news - looks like we can get them refurbished again in the UK for about a quarter of the price of a new set...(so fingers crossed that’s some of the cost argument dealt with)
https://www.jzmporsche.com/product/ceramic-disc-re...
Happy Days
I like the way they smell, I like the way they taste......
But most of all I like the way they don’t fade, don’t cover the wheel in think globs of crap that are a pain to remove after track days, and the way they lighten up weight where it really counts - whether you personally can feel it or not! ;-)
And more good news - looks like we can get them refurbished again in the UK for about a quarter of the price of a new set...(so fingers crossed that’s some of the cost argument dealt with)
https://www.jzmporsche.com/product/ceramic-disc-re...
Happy Days
993rsr said:
100mph is nothing these days, I would like to see 140mph stops, then measure the 5th stop PCCB vs oem set up. I think the difference would be quite big.
You can organise this, you've got a PCCB equipped car I'm sure someone would offer a steel braked car.
Assuming you have OEM pads and fluid.
I would love to do a test, we just need a smooth run way but more so some ££££ to hire it. You can organise this, you've got a PCCB equipped car I'm sure someone would offer a steel braked car.
Assuming you have OEM pads and fluid.
I also want to do a PDK steel car vs manual PCCB drag race.
Fluid would have to be oem in both ofcouse, not easy finding steel shod cars though.
Porsche911R said:
993rsr said:
How are you 'blown away' ?
What performance metrics have you measured to draw this conclusion?
Other unsprung mass reduction, the lack of brake dust and the other items I've lifted from the SGL site in the post below SGL do not state any performance advantage versus steel.
Because I am shocked in a GT2 RS you can do 170mph and 10 laps at Silverstone and they handle it no questions asked, it’s very impressive.What performance metrics have you measured to draw this conclusion?
Other unsprung mass reduction, the lack of brake dust and the other items I've lifted from the SGL site in the post below SGL do not state any performance advantage versus steel.
Where you see GT3 with steels and they come in and are blue !
Few passenger laps in a GT2RS in isolation is hardly a barometer.
Doesn't mean the PCCB are not wearing, take some time to read up on the processes. That's why they now have to use weights of the rotor and devices like Carboteq offer:
Steve Rance said:
The supercup brakes are ceramic and cup cars are steels. No difference in performance over the lap or race distance. Super cup times are quicker simply because of F1 rubber.
There’s no real performance argument- unless you are running endurance, very high downforce or the overall chassis weight is very very light. On a big GT car there’s not a logical argument in terms of performance
What’s the weight of those cars vs a road going gt2 RS ? There’s no real performance argument- unless you are running endurance, very high downforce or the overall chassis weight is very very light. On a big GT car there’s not a logical argument in terms of performance
993rsr said:
Because I am shocked in a GT2 RS you can do 170mph and 10 laps at Silverstone and they handle it no questions asked, it’s very impressive.
Where you see GT3 with steels and they come in and are blue !
Doesn't mean the PCCB are not wearing, take some time to read up on the processes. That's why they now have to use weights of the rotor and devices like Carboteq offer:
We are not talking about wear, we all know they wear. We are having a totally pointless debate PCCB bs steels lol :-p which has been going on since the start of time and zero tests. Where you see GT3 with steels and they come in and are blue !
Doesn't mean the PCCB are not wearing, take some time to read up on the processes. That's why they now have to use weights of the rotor and devices like Carboteq offer:
All we see are GT3 owners always swap out oem steels.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Correct, I would not divulge what I was told in confidence but I would think it would blow anyone away with what an obscene margin along the way these discs get, and it's Porsche that takes the vast majority of the uplift!When the manufacture promotes the advantages without making any reference at all to reduced braking distances over steel one can draw their own conclusion. If they did it would be plastered all over their website.
They have almost become the veblen goods of the spec sheet!
Porsche911R said:
Also a weight saving will make a car accerate faster and thus stop shorter, that’s just maths vs mass. Even if it,s only a 1 foot gain, it’s a gain.
You might need to look at your maths again and Look at the braking distance equation. Mass is not a factor. It's speed and coefficient of friction of tyre to road.Weight is a factor in the brakes ability to hold heat and given iron rotors are heavier and iron per gram can contain far more heat than carbon ceramic, iron rotors have more ultimate thermal capacity.
Porsche911R said:
993rsr said:
Because I am shocked in a GT2 RS you can do 170mph and 10 laps at Silverstone and they handle it no questions asked, it’s very impressive.
Where you see GT3 with steels and they come in and are blue !
Doesn't mean the PCCB are not wearing, take some time to read up on the processes. That's why they now have to use weights of the rotor and devices like Carboteq offer:
We are not talking about wear, we all know they wear. We are having a totally pointless debate PCCB bs steels lol :-p which has been going on since the start of time and zero tests. Where you see GT3 with steels and they come in and are blue !
Doesn't mean the PCCB are not wearing, take some time to read up on the processes. That's why they now have to use weights of the rotor and devices like Carboteq offer:
Being 'blown away' is not an objective metric of the advantages of carbon ceramic brakes.
Edited by 993rsr on Sunday 3rd March 12:34
isaldiri said:
You might need to look at your maths again and Look at the braking distance equation. Mass is not a factor. It's speed and coefficient of friction of tyre to road.
Weight is a factor in the brakes ability to hold heat and given iron rotors are heavier and iron per gram can contain far more heat than carbon ceramic, iron rotors have more ultimate thermal capacity.
No need to look at maths a lighter cars stops in a shorter space than a heavy car like for like cars.Weight is a factor in the brakes ability to hold heat and given iron rotors are heavier and iron per gram can contain far more heat than carbon ceramic, iron rotors have more ultimate thermal capacity.
Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 3rd March 12:40
Porsche911R said:
What’s the weight of those cars vs a road going gt2 RS ?
Weight isn’t really a factor, it’s more the brakes ability to overcome the rotational load of high grip sprint spec slicks. These put more load on the brakes than the weight differences.the race track is the ultimate test of performance parts. isaldiri said:
Porsche911R said:
No need to look at maths
OK case closed. pointless to continue the discussion with you as usual.All you've done again is shown quite how witless you are and made yourself a bit of a laughing stock...
993rsr said:
Plenty of facts being posted, just not from you. Your comments as noted by Isaldiri highlight your ineptitude.
Being 'blown away' is not an objective metric of the advantages of carbon ceramic brakes.
That’s why this debate will go on and on like PDK vs manual debates, maths and figures are all moot, only way to test is in a real car vs another real car and a vbox.Being 'blown away' is not an objective metric of the advantages of carbon ceramic brakes.
Edited by 993rsr on Sunday 3rd March 12:34
One can be blown away, but as you say meaningless, but all the same impressive when you witness stop after stop in a 170mph on the straights gt2 RS all the same.
Isaldiri only posts on paper stuff, pointless or will start talking about brakes is all tyres which again is rubbish.
Hence why I do own a vbox, and backed up all my past cars at how fast days, the mr 30-130 days and vmax days. It’s an eye open what people post on forums vs what their cars really do.
The mr 30-130 days were fun days out and the results on the day one car vs another were the results, no maths needed.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, on the OEM setup the ceramics have a higher initial bite that some people seem to prefer (and equate that to better braking performance). If not tracking the cars regularly, the replacement cost isn't so much a factor (plus anyway most flip the car for the next shiny GT thing before doing enough trackdays to replace 
) and they do command higher resale prices. So fair enough that people do spec them as new - it's just that people who do track and keep the cars longer probably aren't going to be so keen on the whole pccb thing for obvious reasons...993rsr said:
The thing is 911R if you stopped being so bigoted you'd learn something!
All you've done again is shown quite how witless you are and made yourself a bit of a laughing stock...
Real test prove every thing, show up do a test, the result is the result, forum slagging is for bragging rights, it,s meaningless and then people loose their tempers.All you've done again is shown quite how witless you are and made yourself a bit of a laughing stock...
I back up every thing I do on track or at said vmax or mr 30-130 days.
Eye opener forum warriors over guys who love cars and want to pit the cars up vs the next man.
Porsche911R said:
That’s why this debate will go on and on like PDK vs manual debates, maths and figures are all moot, only way to test is in a real car vs another real car and a vbox.
One can be blown away, but as you say meaningless, but all the same impressive when you witness stop after stop in a 170mph on the straights gt2 RS all the same.
Isaldiri only posts on paper stuff, pointless or will start talking about brakes is all tyres which again is rubbish.
Hence why I do own a vbox, and backed up all my past cars at how fast days, the mr 30-130 days and vmax days. It’s an eye open what people post on forums vs what their cars really do.
The mr 30-130 days were fun days out and the results on the day one car vs another were the results, no maths needed.
Stop after stop at high speed in a gt2 rs? big deal. I've done stop after stop on my 12c on iron brakes at Spa and Silverstone braking from 160+mph. The brake pedal got a bit soft due to the fluid being a bit crap but the car still stopped the same after 10 laps. You are too good for trackdays in your own words. I'm not and I've done a couple more than you I reckon in the last few years and I have a vbox recorder as well funnily enough but I only post pointless paper stuff..One can be blown away, but as you say meaningless, but all the same impressive when you witness stop after stop in a 170mph on the straights gt2 RS all the same.
Isaldiri only posts on paper stuff, pointless or will start talking about brakes is all tyres which again is rubbish.
Hence why I do own a vbox, and backed up all my past cars at how fast days, the mr 30-130 days and vmax days. It’s an eye open what people post on forums vs what their cars really do.
The mr 30-130 days were fun days out and the results on the day one car vs another were the results, no maths needed.
This is the last I'm going to bother replying to you about this as it really as ever is pointless with you. Maths and figures are moot and you don't need to look at maths. Suit yourself.
Porsche911R said:
993rsr said:
The thing is 911R if you stopped being so bigoted you'd learn something!
All you've done again is shown quite how witless you are and made yourself a bit of a laughing stock...
Real test prove every thing, show up do a test, the result is the result, forum slagging is for bragging rights, it,s meaningless and then people loose their tempers.All you've done again is shown quite how witless you are and made yourself a bit of a laughing stock...
I back up every thing I do on track or at said vmax or mr 30-130 days.
Eye opener forum warriors over guys who love cars and want to pit the cars up vs the next man.
I look forward to seeing quite how vocal you are face to face.
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