Help choosing which GT3
Discussion
Digga said:
Time for another picture.
Those who 'know' will recognise.
Don’t know where it is, but love the picture ! Have an air-cooled 964 in the garage with a gen 1 991 GTS on the drive and am considering upgrading the 964 to a gen 1 997 GT3 ... just need to dig out my man maths calculator ...Those who 'know' will recognise.
alfapork said:
Nice use of gaffa tape down the middle 
Thank you. It's actually Thompson's roof seal, painted on with a 6" brush. I have a very steady hand. 
Carrara white was a bit common for 997.1 GT3, even in Club Sport configuration, so it does help to make sure you can find your car on track days.
Tony 1234 said:
Slippydiff said:
Absolutely not .....
<SNIP>
I was 55 yesterday
Don't worry you're still a young lad yet <SNIP>
I was 55 yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieK7b4KLL4
Digga said:
Tony 1234 said:
Slippydiff said:
Absolutely not .....
<SNIP>
I was 55 yesterday
Don't worry you're still a young lad yet <SNIP>
I was 55 yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieK7b4KLL4
And Brentford Nylons, Ready Brek (that made you look like a technician at Chernobyl as you walked to school.... )
Hamlet (Happiness is a cigar called ...)
Harp (stays sharp to the bottom of the glass)
etc etc
Digga said:
Congratulations! 996.1 right through to 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0, there is no 'wrong' car and no car we'll ever see the likes of in production again.
Now we need pictures!
Highly recommend the 997.2 GT3 RS. Just completed a 1600 mile trip in ours and posted an article on it on our site.Now we need pictures!
OK thought I'd update with some considered impressions of the car now I've done 400 or so miles - which incidentally, having reviewed the history in some detail, is about the same amount of miles in total some of the previous owners have manage to cover! More on that later..
The drive
Having got used to the power (it's been a while since I've regularly driven anything with over 300bhp) it still feels like a fast car but clearly it's not a super car, and I have adjusted.
I am not sure in reality it is actually significantly faster than a 997 Carrera 2S in a straight line, but the way it does it's business is of course much more characterful and intoxicating. I'm already thinking a similar vintage GT2 might not be that bonkers :-)) and actually that this chassis could probably live with the extra power and torque. Having said that it is of course ample for a road car.
Although there is a reasonable spread of shove everywhere, there are two noticeable flat spots at just below 3k and another just below 5k before it really starts pulling. As a result I find you don't really get higher than 3rd on a B-road and 4th gear on an A-road, and as always it's possible to be caught napping by an on-boost modern turbo diesel unless you stir the porridge.
Good job then that the gear change is great, there's a suitable weight and feel to the controls which was absent from the "easier to drive" 997 GT3 I tried.
In the road geo setup there is a small amount of initial understeer unless you are concentrating and sending weight over the front axle suitably, the back feels super planted as one might expect - these are both typical 911 traits. I think I'll get it up to Donington for an evening to fully test out the handling, as you might expect the limits are higher than is safe or advisable on the public highways.
You don't miss the PASM at all on the road. When it breaks traction it's super predicable and you get a lot of warning. Maybe I'm a more experienced driver than when I had my 997, but you really needed the stability control on that car, which seemed significantly less progressive without it.
Fuel consumption - meh - well it was never likely to be good whilst getting to know the car. If you press on you'd be looking at less than 200 miles a tank, maybe 250 miles in mixed driving - about 19mpg I'd guess. A motorway cruise might be better given the long 6th, which I've only used about twice so far... This compared to about 300 to 350 miles in the Carrera 3.2 for a similar sized tank.
The condition
The car really is in super nick, it had an expensive PPF on the front half back in 2014 and I think this was money well spent. Initially I didn't like the reflections over the film compared to the mirror paint (ceramic coated) elsewhere on the car, but actually for my purposes it makes the car usable. On the IB I've had to respray the bonnet already in 10k miles and the front bumper could do with similar treatment, if PPF means you can worry less about stone damage then it's worth leaving on the car.
The paint seems original everywhere according to the depth meter, and there are only a few small marks under the film, which you might expect after 10 years unprotected. Everywhere else it's peachy save for a very small supermarket dint in the passenger door (no paint damage), a small touch in on the rear bumper and the alloy wheels which look like they have been refurbished by a seven year old with a 40 grit sanding disk at some point. As I refresh the tyres I'll attend to these, even though from 5 feet they are passable.
I am considering the DesignTek carbon bucket copies to replace the comfort seats, which annoyingly I don't get on with that well, I could make the pads heated and original carbon buckets are hard to find and very expensive (about 4k) in used condition. Cars with them originally seem to fetch 4-5k more.
There is a small squeal from the nearside after the car has warmed up, which goes away if you touch the brakes, RPM have suggested it might be the pads not returning fully and the brakes probably need a good clean up - they have already offered to attend to it under warranty.
The 996 is the one which is difficult to live with
OK so this is not a car I am daily driving, at best it's a 3rd car, but you know what I wouldn't have any trouble going anywhere in this.
Sure on B-roads or bad surfaces the ride can be crashy and wooden - think switchable dampers on sport mode in more modern Porsches. Two new front shocks, which it will be getting over winter, will hopefully improve that slightly. But if you have the wife next to you and you're not doing 8200rpm it's not noisy, the tyre roar is significantly absent compared to a 997, there's no cage or harnesses to complain about, the stereo is reasonable and it is nicely appointed. OK not quite as nicely as a later Carrera 2 or GTS, but for what it is, a pleasant enough place to spend a day.
The front splitter doesn't catch either like the later cars do and it's not stupidly low.
I cannot understand why people think it is so difficult to live with!! Try a Caterham or an Elise FFS. Don't be put off a 996 because of the garbage some forum warriors pump out about it being difficult.
The market
Although low mileage, this is not a low owner car (I think I am #6) and it might be fair to assume it could have been bought by some people hoping the values were going to shoot up on clean low miles versions of these cars, after they initially rose from their low point of about 30k some years back. At that point this particular car changed hands for 40k.
It's been sold before by JZM (twice) as well as some other reputable dealers. I bought it for a small amount lower than both those previous transactions, and after a dealer spread or SOR cut, the delta for the 2 POs would have been large - in the range of nearly 20%.
So although 996 values have risen, I think it's fair to say both those owners took a bath on it. And to add insult to injury, it seems they didn't really drive it.
It is a lovely condition low mileage car and I intend to keep it as nice as possible, but I am going to use it and I am not going to worry about the mileage and values. Even if I SOR it in 3 year's time with another 20k miles on it for 20k less than I paid, I've lost less than going out and buying an ex-demo 335d and dailying it. Given what this and the privilege of using it properly, that's excellent value to me.
I suppose my point here is I think the idea of buying cars for investment and hoping to cycle them in a couple of years for a profit is a rubbish idea and doesn't work. But I guess we all knew that on here anyway.
Future plans
I've got two long trips down to Kent planned to see friends and family, the car will also be going to our race at Rockingham early Sept as I need to leave early and get back sharpish 🙂
I'll also be taking it for a road trip over to Spa for the 24hr and onwards for a holiday straight after. So we'll be up to about 2000 miles before end of October.
Preventative maintenance wise do nothing to it until the new year when I'll probably replace the front tyres (coming up for 5 yrs old) and refurb the wheels, and rebuild the front dampers - they've never been done. At that point I'll have a look at the coffin arm bushes and rear toe links, which were a minor advisory on the RPM report.
I'll leave you with a pic after a well deserved wash, having been out and about in Brecon yesterday. One of the advantages of living on the West side of England!!
The drive
Having got used to the power (it's been a while since I've regularly driven anything with over 300bhp) it still feels like a fast car but clearly it's not a super car, and I have adjusted.
I am not sure in reality it is actually significantly faster than a 997 Carrera 2S in a straight line, but the way it does it's business is of course much more characterful and intoxicating. I'm already thinking a similar vintage GT2 might not be that bonkers :-)) and actually that this chassis could probably live with the extra power and torque. Having said that it is of course ample for a road car.
Although there is a reasonable spread of shove everywhere, there are two noticeable flat spots at just below 3k and another just below 5k before it really starts pulling. As a result I find you don't really get higher than 3rd on a B-road and 4th gear on an A-road, and as always it's possible to be caught napping by an on-boost modern turbo diesel unless you stir the porridge.
Good job then that the gear change is great, there's a suitable weight and feel to the controls which was absent from the "easier to drive" 997 GT3 I tried.
In the road geo setup there is a small amount of initial understeer unless you are concentrating and sending weight over the front axle suitably, the back feels super planted as one might expect - these are both typical 911 traits. I think I'll get it up to Donington for an evening to fully test out the handling, as you might expect the limits are higher than is safe or advisable on the public highways.
You don't miss the PASM at all on the road. When it breaks traction it's super predicable and you get a lot of warning. Maybe I'm a more experienced driver than when I had my 997, but you really needed the stability control on that car, which seemed significantly less progressive without it.
Fuel consumption - meh - well it was never likely to be good whilst getting to know the car. If you press on you'd be looking at less than 200 miles a tank, maybe 250 miles in mixed driving - about 19mpg I'd guess. A motorway cruise might be better given the long 6th, which I've only used about twice so far... This compared to about 300 to 350 miles in the Carrera 3.2 for a similar sized tank.
The condition
The car really is in super nick, it had an expensive PPF on the front half back in 2014 and I think this was money well spent. Initially I didn't like the reflections over the film compared to the mirror paint (ceramic coated) elsewhere on the car, but actually for my purposes it makes the car usable. On the IB I've had to respray the bonnet already in 10k miles and the front bumper could do with similar treatment, if PPF means you can worry less about stone damage then it's worth leaving on the car.
The paint seems original everywhere according to the depth meter, and there are only a few small marks under the film, which you might expect after 10 years unprotected. Everywhere else it's peachy save for a very small supermarket dint in the passenger door (no paint damage), a small touch in on the rear bumper and the alloy wheels which look like they have been refurbished by a seven year old with a 40 grit sanding disk at some point. As I refresh the tyres I'll attend to these, even though from 5 feet they are passable.
I am considering the DesignTek carbon bucket copies to replace the comfort seats, which annoyingly I don't get on with that well, I could make the pads heated and original carbon buckets are hard to find and very expensive (about 4k) in used condition. Cars with them originally seem to fetch 4-5k more.
There is a small squeal from the nearside after the car has warmed up, which goes away if you touch the brakes, RPM have suggested it might be the pads not returning fully and the brakes probably need a good clean up - they have already offered to attend to it under warranty.
The 996 is the one which is difficult to live with
OK so this is not a car I am daily driving, at best it's a 3rd car, but you know what I wouldn't have any trouble going anywhere in this.
Sure on B-roads or bad surfaces the ride can be crashy and wooden - think switchable dampers on sport mode in more modern Porsches. Two new front shocks, which it will be getting over winter, will hopefully improve that slightly. But if you have the wife next to you and you're not doing 8200rpm it's not noisy, the tyre roar is significantly absent compared to a 997, there's no cage or harnesses to complain about, the stereo is reasonable and it is nicely appointed. OK not quite as nicely as a later Carrera 2 or GTS, but for what it is, a pleasant enough place to spend a day.
The front splitter doesn't catch either like the later cars do and it's not stupidly low.
I cannot understand why people think it is so difficult to live with!! Try a Caterham or an Elise FFS. Don't be put off a 996 because of the garbage some forum warriors pump out about it being difficult.
The market
Although low mileage, this is not a low owner car (I think I am #6) and it might be fair to assume it could have been bought by some people hoping the values were going to shoot up on clean low miles versions of these cars, after they initially rose from their low point of about 30k some years back. At that point this particular car changed hands for 40k.
It's been sold before by JZM (twice) as well as some other reputable dealers. I bought it for a small amount lower than both those previous transactions, and after a dealer spread or SOR cut, the delta for the 2 POs would have been large - in the range of nearly 20%.
So although 996 values have risen, I think it's fair to say both those owners took a bath on it. And to add insult to injury, it seems they didn't really drive it.
It is a lovely condition low mileage car and I intend to keep it as nice as possible, but I am going to use it and I am not going to worry about the mileage and values. Even if I SOR it in 3 year's time with another 20k miles on it for 20k less than I paid, I've lost less than going out and buying an ex-demo 335d and dailying it. Given what this and the privilege of using it properly, that's excellent value to me.
I suppose my point here is I think the idea of buying cars for investment and hoping to cycle them in a couple of years for a profit is a rubbish idea and doesn't work. But I guess we all knew that on here anyway.
Future plans
I've got two long trips down to Kent planned to see friends and family, the car will also be going to our race at Rockingham early Sept as I need to leave early and get back sharpish 🙂
I'll also be taking it for a road trip over to Spa for the 24hr and onwards for a holiday straight after. So we'll be up to about 2000 miles before end of October.
Preventative maintenance wise do nothing to it until the new year when I'll probably replace the front tyres (coming up for 5 yrs old) and refurb the wheels, and rebuild the front dampers - they've never been done. At that point I'll have a look at the coffin arm bushes and rear toe links, which were a minor advisory on the RPM report.
I'll leave you with a pic after a well deserved wash, having been out and about in Brecon yesterday. One of the advantages of living on the West side of England!!
^^^
Good report.
I’m a new 996.2 owner also (just over two weeks), but only did 200 miles as I’m waiting to have PPF fitted (this week). After that a 2000-mile road trip in the autumn before putting it away for the winter.
Mine is very ‘pointy’ / nose-led, with zero understeer. It drives like a mid-engine car. I suspect the geometry is very track focused and it’s got aftermarket suspensions also. My previous 996 Carrera was easier to drive fast on b-roads.
I will leave the settings as they are for now; I will do some more miles and a track day before deciding if they need to change to more ‘road friendly’.
The tyres will need to be changed; they are 7yr old PS2, but apart from that everything else seems spot on. I’ll get it serviced in spring plus a health check just for my peace of mind.
Anyway, the engine is epic (it’s like a BIG vtec engine), the gearbox is nice, the brakes (Alcon) are great, the buckets are comfy and it’s got air con. I know it’s still honeymoon period but I love the car. My GT3.
Good report.
I’m a new 996.2 owner also (just over two weeks), but only did 200 miles as I’m waiting to have PPF fitted (this week). After that a 2000-mile road trip in the autumn before putting it away for the winter.
Mine is very ‘pointy’ / nose-led, with zero understeer. It drives like a mid-engine car. I suspect the geometry is very track focused and it’s got aftermarket suspensions also. My previous 996 Carrera was easier to drive fast on b-roads.
I will leave the settings as they are for now; I will do some more miles and a track day before deciding if they need to change to more ‘road friendly’.
The tyres will need to be changed; they are 7yr old PS2, but apart from that everything else seems spot on. I’ll get it serviced in spring plus a health check just for my peace of mind.
Anyway, the engine is epic (it’s like a BIG vtec engine), the gearbox is nice, the brakes (Alcon) are great, the buckets are comfy and it’s got air con. I know it’s still honeymoon period but I love the car. My GT3.
If I was commissioning the PPF, I think I'd pay the extra to get the whole car done. The line over the roof where the protection ends is annoying and polish catches on the edge, which on a black car is very noticable. The rear wing has a few chips so would be worth doing there also.
Not sure what you're speccing.
Handling - for what it's worth although there is a touch of understeer if you go in a little fast, the front end is exceptionally pointy, much more than a Carrera. From my limited knowledge of car setup from racing I would expect that "pontyness" - or inherent stability, is due to the toe settings front and rear, more than anything else. Roll stiffness front to rear will give a understeer/oversteer balance once turned in.
Toe in is more stable where as positive toe gives some agility.
The geo sheet RPM gave me shows they actually wound off toe since my test drive, adding turn in - I asked them to set up as per the factory settings. On the rear this went from nearly 3deg toe in to only 25 minutes, on the front 30 minutes down to 6 minutes. So there is just a hint of toe in on the back and virtually parallel on the front. This I would expect to be a little on the pointy side, which it is.
I suppose I could play with the adjustable roll bars to affect under/oversteer, on other cars I would stiffen the rear a touch to dial out some understeer. But until I get to the track and see the true balance I'm not going to touch it :-)
Camber front is 1deg and rear 1.5deg. I know on air cooled cars the norm is to run about a degree more on the rear than the front.
Not sure on these cars what the recommended settings are for various situations.
Not sure what you're speccing.
Handling - for what it's worth although there is a touch of understeer if you go in a little fast, the front end is exceptionally pointy, much more than a Carrera. From my limited knowledge of car setup from racing I would expect that "pontyness" - or inherent stability, is due to the toe settings front and rear, more than anything else. Roll stiffness front to rear will give a understeer/oversteer balance once turned in.
Toe in is more stable where as positive toe gives some agility.
The geo sheet RPM gave me shows they actually wound off toe since my test drive, adding turn in - I asked them to set up as per the factory settings. On the rear this went from nearly 3deg toe in to only 25 minutes, on the front 30 minutes down to 6 minutes. So there is just a hint of toe in on the back and virtually parallel on the front. This I would expect to be a little on the pointy side, which it is.
I suppose I could play with the adjustable roll bars to affect under/oversteer, on other cars I would stiffen the rear a touch to dial out some understeer. But until I get to the track and see the true balance I'm not going to touch it :-)
Camber front is 1deg and rear 1.5deg. I know on air cooled cars the norm is to run about a degree more on the rear than the front.
Not sure on these cars what the recommended settings are for various situations.
Edited by alfapork on Sunday 19th August 22:27
I contacted a PPF firm to ask about getting my car protected directly after I got it back from a full doors off/glass out re-spray.
The price that they gave me for the PPF was same as the price I'd paid for the re-spray.
I decided not to go for that, but will (once some snagging is done) be getting the bumper/mirrors/spats done, then a ceramic coat over the whole thing.
^^Great report btw.
The price that they gave me for the PPF was same as the price I'd paid for the re-spray.
I decided not to go for that, but will (once some snagging is done) be getting the bumper/mirrors/spats done, then a ceramic coat over the whole thing.
^^Great report btw.
From the perspective of someone changing the ratios in a stock Carrera box I'm very envious of those with a GT3/turbo box as it's trivial to change the ratios in those to whatever you want.
i.e. if it's a big issue then it can be resolved very rapidly and affordably for the GT/turbo driver, us poor C2 drivers don't have it so easy!
i.e. if it's a big issue then it can be resolved very rapidly and affordably for the GT/turbo driver, us poor C2 drivers don't have it so easy!
Porsche911R said:
Will he keep it, I notice you picked up on the 3rd gear B road issues.
For me that was enough to sell mine. Was pointless ownship for me as I love B road driving and the GT3 makes a poor B road blaster.
Box ticked though and it will be great at Spa. Can sell it when you get back lol
The 3rd gear thing is not an issue for me. I enjoy running the car over 5000rpm in 2nd/3rd, with the windows down :-)For me that was enough to sell mine. Was pointless ownship for me as I love B road driving and the GT3 makes a poor B road blaster.
Box ticked though and it will be great at Spa. Can sell it when you get back lol
I'm racing at Spa - not tracking the GT3 - this car for me is not a track toy, as already have that covered in other areas (although I'm sure I'll take it out a couple of times a year) and to be honest once you've got your race licence and have followed the car in front at a distance of 6 inches before diving inside him under the brakes, the rules at track days spoil all the fun...
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