Discussion
Out of interest, will these new dampers on the RS be similar units to the PASM dampers, but with just a number of preset values controlled from the buttons? Do PASM dampers just have 2 settings soft and firm, or are they infinitely adjustable? And do they also control bump and rebound?
jackwood said:
Out of interest, will these new dampers on the RS be similar units to the PASM dampers, but with just a number of preset values controlled from the buttons? Do PASM dampers just have 2 settings soft and firm, or are they infinitely adjustable? And do they also control bump and rebound?
Having just switched out my PASM module for a DSC and fitted Tractive dampers to my 997.1 GT3, from the conversations I have had, there is significant, almost infinite tunability. Obviously, with one spring rate, there is a limit to the actual, effective permutations and combinations, but there is huge adjustability on tap.jackwood said:
Out of interest, will these new dampers on the RS be similar units to the PASM dampers, but with just a number of preset values controlled from the buttons? Do PASM dampers just have 2 settings soft and firm, or are they infinitely adjustable? And do they also control bump and rebound?
It would be a big surprise if the new dampers weren't just some variation of the existing PASM dampers but probably those valved to fit whatever spring rates necessary to run that kind of downforce given the official spec sheet states "Porsche Active Suspension Management (PASM) with Sports setup and ride height lowered by approx. 20mm (compared with 911 Carrera). Multi level adjustment of compression and rebound directly on the steering wheel controls"IIRC from what I was told about the system from long ago - PASM dampers have 2 settings because the electronics module just locks the damping into certain values (say 2-5 for 'normal' and 6-9 on 'sport') in a way that say 1 way adjustable dampers would as compared to say 3 way.
the damper adjustment dials on the new car would seem to be given the driver the ability to block out the different areas of bump and rebound etc but that's a bit well.. unusual given the whole USP of the PASM system is that the system is active and is iterating for whatever settings that's most suitable given the g forces being detected.....
isaldiri said:
the damper adjustment dials on the new car would seem to be given the driver the ability to block out the different areas of bump and rebound etc but that's a bit well.. unusual given the whole USP of the PASM system is that the system is active and is iterating for whatever settings that's most suitable given the g forces being detected.....
Well you've got Tractives on your 997 RS too, so you've, no doubt also had the conversation about how much can be altered.I guess the old, road & sport settings were a good compromise, rather than just one-size-fits-all (i.e. f
k all) but different circuits and conditions require more than just one sport setting. So it's interesting...jackwood said:
Out of interest, will these new dampers on the RS be similar units to the PASM dampers, but with just a number of preset values controlled from the buttons? Do PASM dampers just have 2 settings soft and firm, or are they infinitely adjustable? And do they also control bump and rebound?
As I understand it, a regular PASM damper has single way adjustment, so you’re altering a combined bump and rebound setting. The new RS dampers appear to now be a 2 way damper so you can adjust both bump and rebound independently. The fixed spring rate means that the adjustment range is going to be quite limited, but it’s still quite a staggering feature on a road car. I don’t think a road car has had this adjustment feature before..? I’m wondering if the next natural progression for this is to go to a 4 way damper..?The ability to also adjust the the effective ramp angle of the lock up of the e-LSD on accel and decel is also really interesting. Ferrari and McLaren have both had this feature (side slip control etc) but it wasn’t as sophisticated, and didn’t allow such individual control of accel and decel maps.
I’ve spent a lot of time tuning damping rates and diff settings on competition cars, so I’m intrigued to see how these electronic adjustments compare to the physical adjustments I’m familiar with.
IREvans said:
I’ve spent a lot of time tuning damping rates and diff settings on competition cars, so I’m intrigued to see how these electronic adjustments compare to the physical adjustments I’m familiar with.
It's the 21st century Buck Rogers! Get used to it.Joking aside. One does wonder if there is a finite degree of change from solely electronic adjustment.
Digga said:
Well you've got Tractives on your 997 RS too, so you've, no doubt also had the conversation about how much can be altered.
I guess the old, road & sport settings were a good compromise, rather than just one-size-fits-all (i.e. fk all) but different circuits and conditions require more than just one sport setting. So it's interesting...
What can be altered is the amount of electronic amperes used in providing that damping adjustment. So it effectively does open up the window of possible damping ranges (which is still ultimately to a large degree I'd argue limited by spring rate) and how the damping adjustments operates within that window. I guess the old, road & sport settings were a good compromise, rather than just one-size-fits-all (i.e. f
k all) but different circuits and conditions require more than just one sport setting. So it's interesting...The thing is though - the entire USP of 'active' electronic management of stuff like PASM/Bilstein damptronics/Tractives is that the electronic control module is continuously monitoring the inputs of lateral or longitudinal acceleration and adjusts depending on certain parameters being hit (or not). it's supposed to be able to make a very good compromise to the point of nearly being a near one size fits all in 'sport'. It absolutely should not be at the point where the system cannot cope sufficiently well with different circuits that one is getting a lot more out of adjusting some of the DSC parameters on different circuits. Sure there might be some further optimisation to be made in different circuits but the system being active in the first place should mean that gain is very small compared to for example changing damper settings on 3-4 way adjustable passives depending on circuit.
IREvans said:
As I understand it, a regular PASM damper has single way adjustment, so you’re altering a combined bump and rebound setting. The new RS dampers appear to now be a 2 way damper so you can adjust both bump and rebound independently. The fixed spring rate means that the adjustment range is going to be quite limited, but it’s still quite a staggering feature on a road car. I don’t think a road car has had this adjustment feature before..? I’m wondering if the next natural progression for this is to go to a 4 way damper..?
The ability to also adjust the the effective ramp angle of the lock up of the e-LSD on accel and decel is also really interesting. Ferrari and McLaren have both had this feature (side slip control etc) but it wasn’t as sophisticated, and didn’t allow such individual control of accel and decel maps.
I’ve spent a lot of time tuning damping rates and diff settings on competition cars, so I’m intrigued to see how these electronic adjustments compare to the physical adjustments I’m familiar with.
Aren’t the standard PASM dampers 2 way adjustable? Looking at this (pretty poor) document it looks like there are valves for bump and rebound in standard PASM dampers already. The ability to also adjust the the effective ramp angle of the lock up of the e-LSD on accel and decel is also really interesting. Ferrari and McLaren have both had this feature (side slip control etc) but it wasn’t as sophisticated, and didn’t allow such individual control of accel and decel maps.
I’ve spent a lot of time tuning damping rates and diff settings on competition cars, so I’m intrigued to see how these electronic adjustments compare to the physical adjustments I’m familiar with.
https://files.porsche.com/filestore/download/uk/no...
The Normal and Sport settings must just allow them to alter range they work in, but use the sensors to decide the exact value at any particular time/driving condition.
I’m assuming the new system just locks them at different values depending on what is selected on the dash. Making them more like a conventional adjustable 2 way manual adjustable damper.
Or something like that…
I'm afraid it all sounds like a load of marketing claptrap to distract punters from the zero gains made in the engine dept and increased weight. If they were really serious on introducing genuine manually adjustable dampers for compression and rebound they should have just fiited the Manthey KW 3/4 ways fixed dampers and do away with the PASM altogether.
They have to come up with at least a couple of new things to justify the massive rise in the RRP. Having said that I'm wondering if the new pricing structure is partly to make the latest RS less attractive to the serial OPC 'flippers' .
They have to come up with at least a couple of new things to justify the massive rise in the RRP. Having said that I'm wondering if the new pricing structure is partly to make the latest RS less attractive to the serial OPC 'flippers' .
jackwood said:
Aren’t the standard PASM dampers 2 way adjustable? Looking at this (pretty poor) document it looks like there are valves for bump and rebound in standard PASM dampers already.
https://files.porsche.com/filestore/download/uk/no...
The Normal and Sport settings must just allow them to alter range they work in, but use the sensors to decide the exact value at any particular time/driving condition.
I’m assuming the new system just locks them at different values depending on what is selected on the dash. Making them more like a conventional adjustable 2 way manual adjustable damper.
Or something like that…
Yes, every adjustable damper will be making adjustments to bump and rebound, as these are different valves moving oil throughout the damper reservoir. But the standard PASM damper will have a combined setting which alters both bump and rebound at the same time. It’s the individual adjustment of these bump and rebound parameters which is a new thing.https://files.porsche.com/filestore/download/uk/no...
The Normal and Sport settings must just allow them to alter range they work in, but use the sensors to decide the exact value at any particular time/driving condition.
I’m assuming the new system just locks them at different values depending on what is selected on the dash. Making them more like a conventional adjustable 2 way manual adjustable damper.
Or something like that…
IREvans said:
Yes, every adjustable damper will be making adjustments to bump and rebound, as these are different valves moving oil throughout the damper reservoir. But the standard PASM damper will have a combined setting which alters both bump and rebound at the same time. It’s the individual adjustment of these bump and rebound parameters which is a new thing.
Thanks for the confirmation. That was my understanding too. So potentially it’s just a new control circuit, and not a completely different style or construction of damper. jackwood said:
Aren’t the standard PASM dampers 2 way adjustable? Looking at this (pretty poor) document it looks like there are valves for bump and rebound in standard PASM dampers already.
https://files.porsche.com/filestore/download/uk/no...
The Normal and Sport settings must just allow them to alter range they work in, but use the sensors to decide the exact value at any particular time/driving condition.
I’m assuming the new system just locks them at different values depending on what is selected on the dash. Making them more like a conventional adjustable 2 way manual adjustable damper.
Or something like that…
Yes, every adjustable damper will be making adjustments to bump and rebound, as these are different valves moving oil throughout the damper reservoir. But the standard PASM damper will have a combined setting which alters both bump and rebound at the same time. It’s the individual adjustment of these bump and rebound parameters which is a new thing.https://files.porsche.com/filestore/download/uk/no...
The Normal and Sport settings must just allow them to alter range they work in, but use the sensors to decide the exact value at any particular time/driving condition.
I’m assuming the new system just locks them at different values depending on what is selected on the dash. Making them more like a conventional adjustable 2 way manual adjustable damper.
Or something like that…
Taffy66 said:
I'm afraid it all sounds like a load of marketing claptrap to distract punters from the zero gains made in the engine dept and increased weight. If they were really serious on introducing genuine manually adjustable dampers for compression and rebound they should have just fiited the Manthey KW 3/4 ways fixed dampers and do away with the PASM altogether.
They have to come up with at least a couple of new things to justify the massive rise in the RRP. Having said that I'm wondering if the new pricing structure is partly to make the latest RS less attractive to the serial OPC 'flippers' .
That is not going to happen is it, they will be the ones who will get the allocations and flip at lets say 350k.They have to come up with at least a couple of new things to justify the massive rise in the RRP. Having said that I'm wondering if the new pricing structure is partly to make the latest RS less attractive to the serial OPC 'flippers' .
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