992 Turbo S issues-Right to reject
Discussion
MDL111 said:
slightly off topic, but is this a UK specific consumer protection law? From a (very brief) look it seems like in the EU you have the mandatory minimum 2-year warranty (Ferrari screwed me on that one at some point on an exhaust and I just could not be bothered to fight them all the way), but that clearly states repair, replace, refund - I interpret it as a replacement or refund is only available if it cannot be repaired
"The 2-year guarantee period starts as soon as you receive your goods. If a defect becomes apparent within 1 year of delivery, you don't have to prove it existed at the time of delivery. It is assumed that it did unless the seller can prove otherwise. You can ask the seller to repair or replace the product, give you a price reduction, or give you your money back if repair or replacement is not possible.
In some EU countries, this period may be 2 years."
It seems that it is unique to the UK, a brexit bonus some would say. The question is from a manufacturer’s perspective is it sustainable? Do they have the margin in the product to cover such incidents? If not they’ll limit products to the uk and the same folk stating that it’s fine will bemoan such a move."The 2-year guarantee period starts as soon as you receive your goods. If a defect becomes apparent within 1 year of delivery, you don't have to prove it existed at the time of delivery. It is assumed that it did unless the seller can prove otherwise. You can ask the seller to repair or replace the product, give you a price reduction, or give you your money back if repair or replacement is not possible.
In some EU countries, this period may be 2 years."
That said, I get where the op and others are coming from now. The op is a baller - a top 1% earner that can afford to drop £200k on a depreciating asset because he can. Such individuals demand excellence from their retail partners and will not bat an eyelid in giving them a kicking if they fall short. As to the definition of what falling short means, the EU has one definition the uk another.
Porsche chooses to sell high end products with huge margins and play with the rich and famous and know that they have to deliver the goods or they’ll get a bloody nose, which is where the op is coming from I guess.
All that said, I come back to my main concern: if this practice becomes widespread in the UK, we’ll all end up as losers. Some can’t see that far ahead it seems.
Thanks that explains why cannot recall anybody I know ever rejecting a car, but do remember many going back to the dealer to get repaired multiple times
Funny thing is a Turbo S is actually quite a lot cheaper in the UK than in Germany(same VAT I think) - so much so that I once called a few dealerships to try to order a LHD model in the UK
Edit to add: they refused and said they are not supporting me trying to save money that way
Funny thing is a Turbo S is actually quite a lot cheaper in the UK than in Germany(same VAT I think) - so much so that I once called a few dealerships to try to order a LHD model in the UK
Edit to add: they refused and said they are not supporting me trying to save money that way
nickfrog said:
Taste and integrity?
The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
Assuming I wasn't just trying to get out of the car, I'd let them have another go to fix it on the basis they agreed the return period would be extended by another 6 months. Looking on Porsche forums, it seems a similar issue has occurred a few times and the initial fix (to replace sensors or whatnot) doesn't fix the underlying issue (which looks like it might relate a different faulty component potentially from a new supplier Porsche are using).The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
So the chances are their second attempt would have resolved the problem permanently.
MDL111: " they refused and said they are not supporting me trying to save money that way"
It was all different in 2002 when I ordered a brand new Porsche Boxster 3.2S from Germany because I could save over £10K by doing so. From memory, I paid £42K for a car that would have cost £52K plus if I had ordered it in the UK. There was a delay in delivering the vehicle (nearly 6 months) and speaking to the dealer whose english was not great (My german was non-existent) could have ended up with "lost in translation issues" but, fortunately, all came good in the end. The icing on the cake was that my forward purchase of Deutsche Mark's, which was converted into euro's a few months before I had to actuially pay for the car, resulted in me making a 1500 euro profit from the transaction. Those were the days!
It was all different in 2002 when I ordered a brand new Porsche Boxster 3.2S from Germany because I could save over £10K by doing so. From memory, I paid £42K for a car that would have cost £52K plus if I had ordered it in the UK. There was a delay in delivering the vehicle (nearly 6 months) and speaking to the dealer whose english was not great (My german was non-existent) could have ended up with "lost in translation issues" but, fortunately, all came good in the end. The icing on the cake was that my forward purchase of Deutsche Mark's, which was converted into euro's a few months before I had to actuially pay for the car, resulted in me making a 1500 euro profit from the transaction. Those were the days!
I actually think fair consumer protection saves everyone money (and hassle) in the long run. It's an incentive for the manufacturers to maximise reliability and not rush products out of the door. I assume that there is an overall net saving that way. I am allowed one assumption, right?
I still don't know how one is supposed to know a brand new car is going to develop a fault though in order to play the system. Whoever suggested that is either very bright or very thick.
I still don't know how one is supposed to know a brand new car is going to develop a fault though in order to play the system. Whoever suggested that is either very bright or very thick.
maz8062 said:
All that said, I come back to my main concern: if this practice becomes widespread in the UK, we’ll all end up as losers. Some can’t see that far ahead it seems.
So as you are suggesting that, unlike others, you can see that far ahead, how many £200k cars do you think are currently being rejected in this way and how many will it take to be rejected to cause the problems you are talking about?
Hereandthere said:
MDL111: " they refused and said they are not supporting me trying to save money that way"
It was all different in 2002 when I ordered a brand new Porsche Boxster 3.2S from Germany because I could save over £10K by doing so. From memory, I paid £42K for a car that would have cost £52K plus if I had ordered it in the UK. There was a delay in delivering the vehicle (nearly 6 months) and speaking to the dealer whose english was not great (My german was non-existent) could have ended up with "lost in translation issues" but, fortunately, all came good in the end. The icing on the cake was that my forward purchase of Deutsche Mark's, which was converted into euro's a few months before I had to actuially pay for the car, resulted in me making a 1500 euro profit from the transaction. Those were the days!
Yes I remember those days when the pound was still worth something It was all different in 2002 when I ordered a brand new Porsche Boxster 3.2S from Germany because I could save over £10K by doing so. From memory, I paid £42K for a car that would have cost £52K plus if I had ordered it in the UK. There was a delay in delivering the vehicle (nearly 6 months) and speaking to the dealer whose english was not great (My german was non-existent) could have ended up with "lost in translation issues" but, fortunately, all came good in the end. The icing on the cake was that my forward purchase of Deutsche Mark's, which was converted into euro's a few months before I had to actuially pay for the car, resulted in me making a 1500 euro profit from the transaction. Those were the days!
maz8062 said:
It seems that it is unique to the UK, a brexit bonus some would say. The question is from a manufacturer’s perspective is it sustainable? Do they have the margin in the product to cover such incidents? If not they’ll limit products to the uk and the same folk stating that it’s fine will bemoan such a move.
That said, I get where the op and others are coming from now. The op is a baller - a top 1% earner that can afford to drop £200k on a depreciating asset because he can. Such individuals demand excellence from their retail partners and will not bat an eyelid in giving them a kicking if they fall short. As to the definition of what falling short means, the EU has one definition the uk another.
Porsche chooses to sell high end products with huge margins and play with the rich and famous and know that they have to deliver the goods or they’ll get a bloody nose, which is where the op is coming from I guess.
All that said, I come back to my main concern: if this practice becomes widespread in the UK, we’ll all end up as losers. Some can’t see that far ahead it seems.
You work at the Porsche centre it went back to dont youThat said, I get where the op and others are coming from now. The op is a baller - a top 1% earner that can afford to drop £200k on a depreciating asset because he can. Such individuals demand excellence from their retail partners and will not bat an eyelid in giving them a kicking if they fall short. As to the definition of what falling short means, the EU has one definition the uk another.
Porsche chooses to sell high end products with huge margins and play with the rich and famous and know that they have to deliver the goods or they’ll get a bloody nose, which is where the op is coming from I guess.
All that said, I come back to my main concern: if this practice becomes widespread in the UK, we’ll all end up as losers. Some can’t see that far ahead it seems.
EddieSteadyGo said:
nickfrog said:
Taste and integrity?
The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
Assuming I wasn't just trying to get out of the car, I'd let them have another go to fix it on the basis they agreed the return period would be extended by another 6 months. Looking on Porsche forums, it seems a similar issue has occurred a few times and the initial fix (to replace sensors or whatnot) doesn't fix the underlying issue (which looks like it might relate a different faulty component potentially from a new supplier Porsche are using).The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
So the chances are their second attempt would have resolved the problem permanently.
It's a particularly problem also where such a high percentage of the new price is lost the moment the car drives out of the showroom ...
Monkeylegend said:
maz8062 said:
All that said, I come back to my main concern: if this practice becomes widespread in the UK, we’ll all end up as losers. Some can’t see that far ahead it seems.
So as you are suggesting that, unlike others, you can see that far ahead, how many £200k cars do you think are currently being rejected in this way and how many will it take to be rejected to cause the problems you are talking about?
ChrisW. said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
nickfrog said:
Taste and integrity?
The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
Assuming I wasn't just trying to get out of the car, I'd let them have another go to fix it on the basis they agreed the return period would be extended by another 6 months. Looking on Porsche forums, it seems a similar issue has occurred a few times and the initial fix (to replace sensors or whatnot) doesn't fix the underlying issue (which looks like it might relate a different faulty component potentially from a new supplier Porsche are using).The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
So the chances are their second attempt would have resolved the problem permanently.
It's a particularly problem also where such a high percentage of the new price is lost the moment the car drives out of the showroom ...
If Porsche fully understood the problem they would fix it successfully first time, add in the dealer putting the OP at the back of the service queue just damages your confidence like they are playing for time.
The high purchase price just puts your concerns and OPC actions under more intense scrutiny.
Not sure the comment about losing a large % driving out of the showroom really applies to something like a Turbo S due to rarity, you will of course lose the VAT paid but wouldn't be at all surprised if a fault free version went for overs relative to list.
maz8062 said:
Monkeylegend said:
maz8062 said:
All that said, I come back to my main concern: if this practice becomes widespread in the UK, we’ll all end up as losers. Some can’t see that far ahead it seems.
So as you are suggesting that, unlike others, you can see that far ahead, how many £200k cars do you think are currently being rejected in this way and how many will it take to be rejected to cause the problems you are talking about?
Just under 2m or so new cars registered last year of all makes and prices in the UK, so how many of them were returned or would need to be returned within 6 months to cause the problems you are predicting?
maz8062 said:
You don’t get it, mate. It’s got nothing to do with the value of the car nor the marque, it could be a £10k Dacia Sandero or whatever, it’s the principle that you can buy a brand new car, a depreciating asset, drive it for 6 months, thousands of miles and hand it back if the car dares to pull a CEL during that period of ownership. It’s tantamount to taking a car on an extended test drive, shielded by any depreciation, and hand the thing back if it decides to be uppity. That’s my point.
Your point is made up gobbledygook that is why no one gets, whatever it is, you've said it, now shoosh a little and stop filling the thread with nonsense. guyvert1 said:
maz8062 said:
You don’t get it, mate. It’s got nothing to do with the value of the car nor the marque, it could be a £10k Dacia Sandero or whatever, it’s the principle that you can buy a brand new car, a depreciating asset, drive it for 6 months, thousands of miles and hand it back if the car dares to pull a CEL during that period of ownership. It’s tantamount to taking a car on an extended test drive, shielded by any depreciation, and hand the thing back if it decides to be uppity. That’s my point.
Your point is made up gobbledygook that is why no one gets, whatever it is, you've said it, now shoosh a little and stop filling the thread with nonsense. nickfrog said:
Taste and integrity?
The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
Serious answers.The salient question remains: what would YOU have done if it was your £200k and faced with a critical legal deadline where hoping for the best would have resulted in the loss being far greater in case the car was indeed a lemon and the rejection route had disappeared?
Do you support the level of integrity and taste displayed by the OPCs when they engineer the overs market?
Serious questions btw.
I wasn’t judging the OP. I don’t know enough about the problem with the car or its seriousness.
I didn’t mention taste; it was distasteful behaviour I spoke about. I don’t care one way or the other about OPCs and overs. Do they do anything illegal? I don’t think there’s a market for overs by the way. I’ve not met anyone who wanted one.
maz8062 said:
You don’t get it, mate. It’s got nothing to do with the value of the car nor the marque, it could be a £10k Dacia Sandero or whatever, it’s the principle that you can buy a brand new car, a depreciating asset, drive it for 6 months, thousands of miles and hand it back if the car dares to pull a CEL during that period of ownership. It’s tantamount to taking a car on an extended test drive, shielded by any depreciation, and hand the thing back if it decides to be uppity. That’s my point.
No, you are confused.When you buy any product you are protected, by consumer law. You're ignorance of these laws lead you to draw whataboutery.
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