GT3 6.2 on Rolling Road,
Discussion
mrdemon said:
I'll point out the bad bits on my cars and do while owning them, I just don't like the high status the GT3 has and owners will fight till the death to protect the image.
Thank you but the thing that stuck out of your post for me was this line.Why not?
Surely you can accept that some people love their car more than any other car they have ever driven or owned and as a result, they elevate the GT3 to a higher status.
I absolutely love my 997.1 GT3 and I don't think I will ever sell it. Improve it, change it, tweak it etc of course but sell it? No!
I was enjoying this thread and lookng forward to learning a little more about GT3 engines. But, in a split second or two, some anti GT3 paratrooper sees an opportunity to drop in with their hobnail boots and starts a row for no other reason than to make sure we don't all get too much enjoyment from our cars because they didn't.
MrDemon,
What about the post you deleted where you said you were the world kerplunk champion?
ok you didnt post that, I was making a joke about clutching at straws but do you see how I could have continued to claim that you had since it was no longer there?
While you are endowed with almost unending opinions, having an opinion is not the same as knowing something. The distinction may be difficult for some to understand however its one that is important and one that can be critical in many situations. Perhaps the remoteness of virtual interactions engenders a difficultly in making this distinction for those in the modern age. Gone are many of the additional cues one would pick up on during personal interactions. (Thats now a topic where there are only opinions, feel free to opine away).
I assumed you were a sophisticated troll, intent on operating to some sort of unique agenda however it may simply be that you genuinely display strong dunning kruger effect, whereby your lack of understanding prevents you from being aware of your lack of understanding, in addition to your own raft of more common cognitive biases. I am sure others have their own opinion.
Dunning kruger is a cognitive bias, we all display cognitive bias in our daily lives as far as I am aware. Here is a list of the common ones, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_bia... I am sure we all can spot some of our own. Bipolar disorder is a mental illness which ruins many lives.
The irony that you are demonstrably unaware of the difference in these two regards; but that this lack of understanding did not compel you to read or research anything before posting, nor did it prevent you from posting at all is not lost on me.
What about the post you deleted where you said you were the world kerplunk champion?
ok you didnt post that, I was making a joke about clutching at straws but do you see how I could have continued to claim that you had since it was no longer there?
While you are endowed with almost unending opinions, having an opinion is not the same as knowing something. The distinction may be difficult for some to understand however its one that is important and one that can be critical in many situations. Perhaps the remoteness of virtual interactions engenders a difficultly in making this distinction for those in the modern age. Gone are many of the additional cues one would pick up on during personal interactions. (Thats now a topic where there are only opinions, feel free to opine away).
I assumed you were a sophisticated troll, intent on operating to some sort of unique agenda however it may simply be that you genuinely display strong dunning kruger effect, whereby your lack of understanding prevents you from being aware of your lack of understanding, in addition to your own raft of more common cognitive biases. I am sure others have their own opinion.
Dunning kruger is a cognitive bias, we all display cognitive bias in our daily lives as far as I am aware. Here is a list of the common ones, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_bia... I am sure we all can spot some of our own. Bipolar disorder is a mental illness which ruins many lives.
The irony that you are demonstrably unaware of the difference in these two regards; but that this lack of understanding did not compel you to read or research anything before posting, nor did it prevent you from posting at all is not lost on me.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 4th January 12:59
V8KSN said:
Mr Demon STOP!
Stop demonising anyone who likes the GT3, it is what it is and some people like it, others don't, just accept that.
You sound like those people who say the Cayman is not a 'proper' Porsche and we all know how stupid that sounds so just give it a rest please.
Just because someone posts a thread on a GT3, it does not automatically give you the right to slag GT3s off with your opinion.
I have half a mind to go out, buy a Cayman R, run it for two months and then take any and every opportunity to say what I didn't like about it on every Cayman based thread on PH.
Can you see how annoying that would be?
In fact, I might just go out for a 20 minute test drive in one just so that I can.
I see what you did there. Like it. Stop demonising anyone who likes the GT3, it is what it is and some people like it, others don't, just accept that.
You sound like those people who say the Cayman is not a 'proper' Porsche and we all know how stupid that sounds so just give it a rest please.
Just because someone posts a thread on a GT3, it does not automatically give you the right to slag GT3s off with your opinion.
I have half a mind to go out, buy a Cayman R, run it for two months and then take any and every opportunity to say what I didn't like about it on every Cayman based thread on PH.
Can you see how annoying that would be?
In fact, I might just go out for a 20 minute test drive in one just so that I can.
Totally agree though and I did start writing a reply last night but thought "don't waste a second on the troll".
Sod it though I will -
mrdemon said:
417 Bhp is even a bigger pub bragging rights figure.
But forget about Bhp, surely people can see below 6.1k the engine not a nice place to be.
And on the road keeping it above 6.1k is ni on impossible.
Drop it below and your torque dropping off like a stone about 5k and no more Bhp is on tap.
But hay oh cannot say a bad thing on that car/engine. Still the perfect road car in fanboy land.
So it's the GT3 engine that is the problem now!? It was the gear ratios last month. How different do you think your CR or Spyder are to a GT3 below 6K rpm?But forget about Bhp, surely people can see below 6.1k the engine not a nice place to be.
And on the road keeping it above 6.1k is ni on impossible.
Drop it below and your torque dropping off like a stone about 5k and no more Bhp is on tap.
But hay oh cannot say a bad thing on that car/engine. Still the perfect road car in fanboy land.
From the ones I've driven the differences are this -
Spyder has similar low down engine feel to a '6 GT3 but with a more muted engine note when revving, even with PSE (apart from at tick over or low engine speed, where it's obviously louder), so what. It's more like a Carrera than a GT3 in noise characteristics, which makes sense, as this is what the engine is nearer, rather than the Mezger.
The Spyder feels almost as quick, on the road at least, but without the top end pull of the '3 and without the neck-hair stand-up scream after 5k revs.
The Spyder felt more supple, read "softer" but less pointy because of it. Does that make it better? Obviously to you, but not to me. It just felt like I could use it as a daily, which isn't what I want from a weekend toy. I want special.
Also the wind-noise is laughable. Even at 50mph. I turned to my mate, the owner and said is that normal? He said "Yeah its just what the car is about. I always have the roof down." Great, I thought.
So to me the Spyder felt like a watered down, softer, (wind) noisier GT3 missing the shrill top end scream and feeling more "normal". It didn't in the slightest make me think "I NEED one of these", which is exactly what my first drive in a GT3 made me feel like, all those years ago.
Stop trolling Mr Demon. It's like you're magnetically drawn to GT3 threads as you can't bear anyone enjoying the cars because you say you didn't.
Equally the Spyder/CR don't offer the be all and end all to everyone else, as they seem to for you. The Spyder is a great car but at the end of the day it's a Boxster with some nice suspension settings and a silly roof.
To now start on the GT3's engine is just pure fantasy land stuff. Do us a favour and stick to your Spyder threads.
Apologies for the off topic-ness to everyone else.
<Note to self. Must ignore Demon. Must ignore Demon. Must ignore Demon.>
rallyeman said:
Can you remember from memory the curve? Did it look similar to mine?
If you have a look at Cargraphic.com and search engine tuning there are some before graphs taken from engine dyno for your engine, IIRC they do go up and down a bit like what you have here, the GT3 is not a smooth torque curve, it follows the cams and breathing of the engine set up.Edited by TB993tt on Saturday 4th January 11:54
Incase the OP ever returns and misses the post a page back....
Your dyno run was conducted in a mode set up for forced induction. I presume you havent added forced induction to your GT3?
Your intake temp was way higher than ambient air temp. IF this is an accurate intake temp, throw that intake setup into the bin. High intake temps are a nice way to gain a power bump on a dyno graph too though so be aware of this. Stick the probe somewhere that it will see air hotter than intake air (which should be around ambient) and the dyno corrects and gives you more power.
Along with all the other reasons that a dyno may give you whatever it gives, you have these two things going on.
Your dyno run was conducted in a mode set up for forced induction. I presume you havent added forced induction to your GT3?
Your intake temp was way higher than ambient air temp. IF this is an accurate intake temp, throw that intake setup into the bin. High intake temps are a nice way to gain a power bump on a dyno graph too though so be aware of this. Stick the probe somewhere that it will see air hotter than intake air (which should be around ambient) and the dyno corrects and gives you more power.
Along with all the other reasons that a dyno may give you whatever it gives, you have these two things going on.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 4th January 12:55
fioran0 said:
as for the rest of the thread, are y'all for real?
I really dont want to single anyone out, this whole thread is wandering through fantasy land. However I feel I need to post some sort of comment to lend some credibility to that statement. The link posted above shows a figure of 326.9HP at the rear wheels for the run that provided the 391.8HP calculated engine figure graph plot. Thats almost a 20% transmission loss factor being used (19.855% if we want to be detailed) to get that 392HP figure. That engine wont be making even 360hp at the crank given that wheel figure.
You sound like an expert on Dynoing, you must have many years of experience operating a Dyno to post with such conviction?I really dont want to single anyone out, this whole thread is wandering through fantasy land. However I feel I need to post some sort of comment to lend some credibility to that statement. The link posted above shows a figure of 326.9HP at the rear wheels for the run that provided the 391.8HP calculated engine figure graph plot. Thats almost a 20% transmission loss factor being used (19.855% if we want to be detailed) to get that 392HP figure. That engine wont be making even 360hp at the crank given that wheel figure.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 4th January 03:45
[quote=fioran0]Since its not been mentioned (amazingly), the dyno folks have the dyno setup for a forced induction engine during your runs. I presume you arent smuggling a supercharger in there?
Also take a look at the difference between your intake temp and ambient temp. Two comments to make there. If that is your actual intake air temp, get that intake set up thrown into the bin. Having a big difference here is also a nice way to get a higher dyno number (assuming its not an accurate reading of the intake temp). Stick the probe somewhere where it will measure hotter air than the engine is physically seeing and the system "corrects" and gives you a handy power bump.
You have something there, as to start with, it only reached 350bhp, then they mentioned about the intake temp, moved a probe and ran again and reached 371
Also take a look at the difference between your intake temp and ambient temp. Two comments to make there. If that is your actual intake air temp, get that intake set up thrown into the bin. Having a big difference here is also a nice way to get a higher dyno number (assuming its not an accurate reading of the intake temp). Stick the probe somewhere where it will measure hotter air than the engine is physically seeing and the system "corrects" and gives you a handy power bump.
You have something there, as to start with, it only reached 350bhp, then they mentioned about the intake temp, moved a probe and ran again and reached 371
mrdemon said:
I can post dyno plots coming out your ears regarding what happens to the map if you drop below 6k revs with a GT3,
your torque drops and your BHP is going no where. take that baby off the boil and you are dumped in no mans land.
these is NOT my opinion they are facts of the map !!!
Your statement above is not supported by the map; there's plenty of torque below 6k; in fact there's MORE torque at 5k than at 6k and what's more there's over 260ftlb from about 2900rpm onwards....your "no mans land" below 6k rpm is in fact only 30ftlb off the peak even down at 3krpm...so what on earth are you on about...your torque drops and your BHP is going no where. take that baby off the boil and you are dumped in no mans land.
these is NOT my opinion they are facts of the map !!!
unless...oh, of course, you're just trolling...
As someone with no skin in this game, I looked at those dynos and thought 'good torque below 5 or 6k and a lot thereafter'. I don't see any no mans land.
The GT3 is less usable on the road than a Spyder or Cayman R because it is a lot faster. The gear ratios are silly on all Porsches. The torque curves probably aren't hugely different either - they are rev happy!
The GT3 is less usable on the road than a Spyder or Cayman R because it is a lot faster. The gear ratios are silly on all Porsches. The torque curves probably aren't hugely different either - they are rev happy!
mrdemon said:
AS you know I'll help any one. he was slagging off people here and dyno's and then must have thought better of it and deleted his 1st post.
I have said many times the GT3 can be the perfect car , I am fair but do post on FACTs and ownership.
I don't get upset if people slate the R, the press did it, Chris harris did it, many here say it's no GT3, I am happy with that.
It not a race car, it has no pedigree, it's 100bhp down on a GT3, it has no sus ajustments etc etc, it's not a 911 (what ever that means)
SO NO it would not be annoying those are the facts of the car, I know that lol slag away.
I have owned 50+ cars and know good and bad points with all of them.
I can post dyno plots coming out your ears regarding what happens to the map if you drop below 6k revs with a GT3,
your torque drops and your BHP is going no where. take that baby off the boil and you are dumped in no mans land.
these is NOT my opinion they are facts of the map !!!
I said why I sold mine because of not being able to keep it over 6k 100% of the time even when trying hard.
but people swear black is white here and disagree, so I'll post a few GT3 dyno's :-)
I'll point out the bad bits on my cars and do while owning them, I just don't like the high status the GT3 has and owners will fight till the death to protect the image.
Can't see where the torque "drops like a stone" in OP's trace - or in the one you posted. Looks pretty flat which fits with driving a GT3 - you get the fireworks at the top, but I always found my 996.2 surprisingly torquey too.I have said many times the GT3 can be the perfect car , I am fair but do post on FACTs and ownership.
I don't get upset if people slate the R, the press did it, Chris harris did it, many here say it's no GT3, I am happy with that.
It not a race car, it has no pedigree, it's 100bhp down on a GT3, it has no sus ajustments etc etc, it's not a 911 (what ever that means)
SO NO it would not be annoying those are the facts of the car, I know that lol slag away.
I have owned 50+ cars and know good and bad points with all of them.
I can post dyno plots coming out your ears regarding what happens to the map if you drop below 6k revs with a GT3,
your torque drops and your BHP is going no where. take that baby off the boil and you are dumped in no mans land.
these is NOT my opinion they are facts of the map !!!
I said why I sold mine because of not being able to keep it over 6k 100% of the time even when trying hard.
but people swear black is white here and disagree, so I'll post a few GT3 dyno's :-)
I'll point out the bad bits on my cars and do while owning them, I just don't like the high status the GT3 has and owners will fight till the death to protect the image.
Well, it would appear we've all done Mr D a great disservice.
Knowing he's a big fan of the Porsche Boxster, we all assumed that when he said he owned a 550, it was one of these fine limited edition models :
When in reality he meant he owned one of these :
Accordingly it would appear the "lack of torque" comment was well founded on The Demon's part.
It transpires there were two cars in the Demon household, Mrs D drove a 381hp Mk2 996 GT3. Mr Demon drove an F10 BMW 550D, which ironically has 381hp too.
They both have keyrings which are boldly engraved and enamelled with that horsepower figure. Mr D's is enamelled in blue, Mrs D's in Pink.
During a "domestic" (apparently over Mr D spending too much time on THAT bloody forum, in addition to getting the pair of them into "a spot of bother" at Donington last year) Mr D stormed out of the house, picking up what he thought were his BMW 550d keys along with his front door keys.
When he came to unlock the door to his BMW, he found he couldn't as he had Mrs D's car and front door keys.
Unwilling to lose face (who'd have thought it eh ?) he elected to take Mrs D's car for a thrash whilst the situation back home with 'err indoors diffused itself.
He duly headed out to his usual driving roads. Once upon on them, he was shocked to discover several massive shortcomings in the GT3's dynamics.
Firstly the Porsche's front end was rather light and flighty, and secondly it was easily deflected by bumps.
But the problems didn't end there, oh no. Whereas the automatic gearbox in his 550d 5 series could be left to its own devices and seemed more than capable of finding a ratio suitable for any type of road/conditions encountered, the GT3 required use of a quaint stick like object protruding out of the centre console to maintain any kind of decent momentum. But worse still, left in sixth, the engine had no meaningful low down power or torque whatsoever. Put bluntly, the gear ratios were ill-considered.
But to add insult to injury, the frankly hopeless engine in the GT3 was lacking what we all know to be the single most important ingredient to making rapid progress on the road. That being torque.
Now I have to concede he does have a point, and a quick look at the torque curve for 550d below will only serve to emphasize the issue he's alluded to.
I think you'd all agree, there is no "No mans land" in the 550d's torque curve (all 740nm of it)
Suffice to say, Mr D returned home a chastened man, and now never, ever leaves his keys on the sideboard in the hall next to Mrs D's.
So to all those doubting Mr D's credibility in these matters, I suggest you re-consider his words. His opinions are after all based on experience and are thus FACT.
Perhaps in future you'll show a bit less animosity towards an esteemed fellow PH contributor.
P.S I don't want any f*cker on here quoting the above. Gottit ?
Knowing he's a big fan of the Porsche Boxster, we all assumed that when he said he owned a 550, it was one of these fine limited edition models :
When in reality he meant he owned one of these :
Accordingly it would appear the "lack of torque" comment was well founded on The Demon's part.
It transpires there were two cars in the Demon household, Mrs D drove a 381hp Mk2 996 GT3. Mr Demon drove an F10 BMW 550D, which ironically has 381hp too.
They both have keyrings which are boldly engraved and enamelled with that horsepower figure. Mr D's is enamelled in blue, Mrs D's in Pink.
During a "domestic" (apparently over Mr D spending too much time on THAT bloody forum, in addition to getting the pair of them into "a spot of bother" at Donington last year) Mr D stormed out of the house, picking up what he thought were his BMW 550d keys along with his front door keys.
When he came to unlock the door to his BMW, he found he couldn't as he had Mrs D's car and front door keys.
Unwilling to lose face (who'd have thought it eh ?) he elected to take Mrs D's car for a thrash whilst the situation back home with 'err indoors diffused itself.
He duly headed out to his usual driving roads. Once upon on them, he was shocked to discover several massive shortcomings in the GT3's dynamics.
Firstly the Porsche's front end was rather light and flighty, and secondly it was easily deflected by bumps.
But the problems didn't end there, oh no. Whereas the automatic gearbox in his 550d 5 series could be left to its own devices and seemed more than capable of finding a ratio suitable for any type of road/conditions encountered, the GT3 required use of a quaint stick like object protruding out of the centre console to maintain any kind of decent momentum. But worse still, left in sixth, the engine had no meaningful low down power or torque whatsoever. Put bluntly, the gear ratios were ill-considered.
But to add insult to injury, the frankly hopeless engine in the GT3 was lacking what we all know to be the single most important ingredient to making rapid progress on the road. That being torque.
Now I have to concede he does have a point, and a quick look at the torque curve for 550d below will only serve to emphasize the issue he's alluded to.
I think you'd all agree, there is no "No mans land" in the 550d's torque curve (all 740nm of it)
Suffice to say, Mr D returned home a chastened man, and now never, ever leaves his keys on the sideboard in the hall next to Mrs D's.
So to all those doubting Mr D's credibility in these matters, I suggest you re-consider his words. His opinions are after all based on experience and are thus FACT.
Perhaps in future you'll show a bit less animosity towards an esteemed fellow PH contributor.
P.S I don't want any f*cker on here quoting the above. Gottit ?
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 5th January 23:00
mrdemon said:
417 Bhp is even a bigger pub bragging rights figure.
But forget about Bhp, surely people can see below 6.1k the engine not a nice place to be.
And on the road keeping it above 6.1k is ni on impossible.
Drop it below and your torque dropping off like a stone about 5k and no more Bhp is on tap.
But hay oh cannot say a bad thing on that car/engine. Still the perfect road car in fanboy land.
Demon, you have a very low opinion of other people's intellect.But forget about Bhp, surely people can see below 6.1k the engine not a nice place to be.
And on the road keeping it above 6.1k is ni on impossible.
Drop it below and your torque dropping off like a stone about 5k and no more Bhp is on tap.
But hay oh cannot say a bad thing on that car/engine. Still the perfect road car in fanboy land.
Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 4th January 00:06
We all know what you are doing here and its all very transparent, punishing others because you owned a car that you couldn't drive very well and then had to sell, losing money in the process.
You know you won't convert any GT3 owners or admirers. The cars credentials and brilliance is way too potent and established to be affected by anyones peurile trolling. All you're doing is coercing people into thinking that you're a bit of a plonker when i'm certain you're probably an ok bloke in real life. Give yourself a break heh ?
sportsandclassic said:
Hi, the dip in middle is the resonance flap changing the inlet manifold characteristic... Is it completely stock as far as exhaust and air intake ?
Ok, I've found out the boxes are Porsche Boxes with PSE, but open all the time for better sound. So this shouldn't cause a problem No?rallyeman said:
Ok, I've found out the boxes are Porsche Boxes with PSE, but open all the time for better sound. So this shouldn't cause a problem No?
Pretty sure there wasn't an official switchable PSE option for the GT3 ? If that's what you've got, I'm guessing it's something somebody has retro-fitted. Can't remember if the C2/4 pipework is smaller bore than that used on the GT3 system ?
Either way, I'd be looking at putting the car back to standard or considering getting some upgraded silencers on it.
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