996 gt3 v 996 gt3 rs

[BubblesNW]

ChrisW. said:

To be fair, really leaning consistently on a 20 year old car is not the best of ideas ... and particularly not if one would like to keep it collectable.

I agree wholeheartedly that the 996 GT3RS is a very special car, and the low numbers (104 RHD cars in the UK ?) helps to keep them rare and desirable. Of course the blue ones are even better (!!).

But if numbers speak in collector terms, and if the most valuable should generally be the first and the last ... given that the 996GT3 MkI CS was the RS of that version with only 28 made and supposedly at Weissach (I have never been able to verify this) these RHD cars hold a very special interest to me. I've owned two, one of them twice ... I had to buy it back ...

But for track days, buying a GT4 and spending it up to the cost of a 991GT3 has been a fabulous journey and has left me with a unique car that gives 991GT3's a very hard run for their money and with minimal consumables ... 15 track-days to a set of pads, endless discs, twice the front tyre life of an un-modded GT4 ... and no worries about possible hub carrier failure as happened to one of my friends with his 964RS at Spa !!

So, horses for courses.

Collectable and worry free track-worn are for me two immiscible categories of passion wagon !

Having endured a short Chris W session at Donny last week, those who know Chris will understand that a normal session is equivalent to a Le Mans stint, and as a lightly modified GT4 owner I have to say that Chris’ GT4 is an absolute stunner. Suspension is more compliant and rides better than standard, engine pulls like a train all the way to the red line unlike the standard car which runs out of puff at 6500rpm. I’m not sure the brakes stop any better but Chris is very happy with the longevity on the Surface Transform discs and pads.

On a stint behind a 991.2GT3RS he lost ground on the straights - 435bhp manual vs 520 pdk - but made it all back under the brakes and around the bends, absolutely amazing for approx £100k vs unobtanium latest and (supposedly) greatest.

As the world heads towards Turbo stupidity and electrical ridiculousness this may be the sweet spot for affordability, usability and modernity.

The older air cooled and early water cooled cars might offer better tactility with hydraulic or unassisted sterling to some but that’s a different market now.

Edited by BubblesNW on Wednesday 7th August 00:07

[RDMcG]

Of course as always, these are all tools that need talent to get the best of them. I have never owned a 996RS, though I have a 997.1RS, had a 997.2RS and also have a 991RS..

While I cannot comment on the comparison between a 6GT3 and a 6RS I have driven the GT3 and it is a superb car.Yet, for me the 6RS is a dream car and very much on my list to get one and import it to Canada. They are just reaching legal import status here unlike the US.

When I bought my 7.1RS it was just before all the stupid money and limited status stuff so I could thrash it , and I would love to have been able to do that with a 996, but they were never legal for North America. Leaves me with the concern about thrashing an older but now
valuable car.

I'll thrash it.

[Yellow491]

BubblesNW said:

ChrisW. said:

To be fair, really leaning consistently on a 20 year old car is not the best of ideas ... and particularly not if one would like to keep it collectable.

I agree wholeheartedly that the 996 GT3RS is a very special car, and the low numbers (104 RHD cars in the UK ?) helps to keep them rare and desirable. Of course the blue ones are even better (!!).

But if numbers speak in collector terms, and if the most valuable should generally be the first and the last ... given that the 996GT3 MkI CS was the RS of that version with only 28 made and supposedly at Weissach (I have never been able to verify this) these RHD cars hold a very special interest to me. I've owned two, one of them twice ... I had to buy it back ...

But for track days, buying a GT4 and spending it up to the cost of a 991GT3 has been a fabulous journey and has left me with a unique car that gives 991GT3's a very hard run for their money and with minimal consumables ... 15 track-days to a set of pads, endless discs, twice the front tyre life of an un-modded GT4 ... and no worries about possible hub carrier failure as happened to one of my friends with his 964RS at Spa !!

So, horses for courses.

Collectable and worry free track-worn are for me two immiscible categories of passion wagon !

Having endured a short Chris W session at Donny last week, those who know Chris will understand that a normal session is equivalent to a Le Mans stint, and as a lightly modified GT4 owner I have to say that Chris’ GT4 is an absolute stunner. Suspension is more compliant and rides better than standard, engine pulls like a train all the way to the red line unlike the standard car which runs out of puff at 6500rpm. I’m not sure the brakes stop any better but Chris is very happy with the longevity on the Surface Transform discs and pads.

On a stint behind a 991.2GT3RS he lost ground on the straights - 435bhp manual vs 520 pdk - but made it all back under the brakes and around the bends, absolutely amazing for approx £100k vs unobtanium latest and (supposedly) greatest.

As the world heads towards Turbo stupidity and electrical ridiculousness this may be the sweet spot for affordability, usability and modernity.

The older air cooled and early water cooled cars might offer better tactility with hydraulic or unassisted sterling to some but that’s a different market now.

Edited by BubblesNW on Wednesday 7th August 00:07

Not sure how a stint is like lemans on a track day,your comparing a modified car with probably a standard rs on a track day,the other driver may well have a different objective or first track day etc.
Most who enjoy a 911 character dont want a cayman,good little cars that they are,but not a 911.
For value to use,a gt3 has to be the way forward with careful maintenance and inspections of the key important components,most parts dont just fail but have been cracking or leaking etc for some time.

[isaldiri]

BubblesNW said:

On a stint behind a 991.2GT3RS he lost ground on the straights - 435bhp manual vs 520 pdk - but made it all back under the brakes and around the bends, absolutely amazing for approx £100k vs unobtanium latest and (supposedly) greatest.

Not meant to be directed at you personally (really! ) but whenever this kind of thing is quoted on forums, without knowing anything about each driver there's little point in comparing cornering ability between cars nevermind definitively stating one car is catching the other around bends? The differences in corner speeds between road cars of these types on similar enough tyres typically isn't going to be enough that a better/more commited driver isn't going to be able to make the difference.

[hunter 66]

Yes at SS the other day , helped a guy on his first track day with some tips in his new 992 S , after a few laps he passed a .2 GT3 as well as a GT 4 , he was delighted as he now saw no reason in buying an expensive GT product ....But Chris's car is very well set up for Donnington and he has done a few laps there

[thelostboy]

I was going to say the same thing. I went past a Speciale in my Clio Trophy at Goodwood. Says nothing about the cars, just makes me a driving God...

And whilst I'm a massive hypocrite, as I always modify my cars, there are no 'freebies' with it. You will always cause compromise and almost always cause issues down the line as you push stresses around the car.

[Steve Rance]

The thing that the RS offers - along with all 996GT3's is involvement and reward. Subsiquently there have been faster cars but nothing comes close to the involvement and reward offered by the 996. I found the RS the most transparent GT car that ive ever driven - especially with a decent sharp set up. It gives the driver so much feedback and reacts instantly to control inputs. Not the grey blurred edges at near and on the limit that later cars have. They may be more compromised as a daily but they are in a league of thier own as a pure driving tool

[Digga]

For the sort of driver who goes to a track day with the explicit intention of setting lap times, happiness is transitory. They will only be happy with the latest and faster, and then only until either something newer and quicker arrives or an expensive modification is dreamed up.

For (most) of the rest of us, it is about how it feels to be on the track and a bit part of that is what the car feels like, how we get on with it. There's really no right answer. Buy what you like and what you think will work for you.

I can always see the appeal of the new, whizz-bang PDK, rear-wheel steer RS, but equally, if I see a 'plain-vanilla' 996.1 GT3 on track, I will also be able to understand and appreciate the very different characteristics it offers.

In the real world, the argument made by La Source that (possibly) the most enjoyment you can derive might not necessarily be with the most expensive car you can afford, but rather with a car you can drive (really drive) without worry is more important than many acknowledge.

[Juno]

hunter 66 said:

Yes at SS the other day , helped a guy on his first track day with some tips in his new 992 S , after a few laps he passed a .2 GT3 as well as a GT 4 , he was delighted as he now saw no reason in buying an expensive GT product ....But Chris's car is very well set up for Donnington and he has done a few laps there

Where was the .2GT3 in a Gravel Trap

[hunter 66]

You will be surprised how slowly many are driven which is fine as well ,as long as they are having a good time . It is about having fun safely , competition is best kept for race days .
Totally agree with Digga ..

[Yellow491]

Agree with digga.
My 997gt3rs is a great road car,if a bit fidgety,on track its not great and almost scary in the wet with passive dampers and power steering,cant feel what the hell is going on,feels like driving with two pairs of gloves on,now if i modded it to a good set of dampers and junk the power steering it would be a differant weapon i am sure.
My slowest car is the best fun to drive on track and road wet or dry.

[Steve Rance]

Yep. Other than the 996, I've not drive a GT3 that does not become vaigue as it nears the limit. Too much white noise from the active elements of the chassis.

[Porsche911R]

Yellow491 said:

Agree with digga.
My 997gt3rs is a great road car,if a bit fidgety,on track its not great and almost scary in the wet with passive dampers and power steering,cant feel what the hell is going on,feels like driving with two pairs of gloves on,now if i modded it to a good set of dampers and junk the power steering it would be a differant weapon i am sure.
My slowest car is the best fun to drive on track and road wet or dry.

wet always shows up the news cars issues, 981 and my GT4 had zero feeling in the wet, you turn in on faith.

surprised you find that an issue with a 2010 RS though, no EPS and pretty direct steering. stty PASM though. (I am sure you ment that over passives)

Best steering car I have owned was a Noble, 2nd best was my Exige. No Porkers would be close unless you do pre 89, but then those bring in other trates which are not that nice anyway.

Not sure why people piss about in heavy GT cars on track costing £2k a day when you can blat around in a Elise/exige and a set of tyres and pads lasts 10 tracks days and cost 50p to run.

Noble knew how to make a road car though, no driver aids , perfect damping and the best steering on any car ever inc caterhams. they just fell apart and had a turbo lag, but fun to drive.

today, you really need to be buying into Lotus if you want feeling and new.

[Digga]

Porsche911R said:

Best steering car I have owned was a Noble, 2nd best was my Exige. No Porkers would be close unless you do pre 89, but then those bring in other trates which are not that nice anyway.

Not sure why people piss about in heavy GT cars on track costing £2k a day when you can blat around in a Elise/exige and a set of tyres and pads lasts 10 tracks days and cost 50p to run.

Aside from the whole Porsche brand heritage (and not, for one minute to suggest Lotus does not also have heritage) you have the near mythical status of their GT cars. Up to the end of the 997.2 you could argue car were incredibly close to their real, racing cousins. Even the 991 GTs get some benefit from race tech.

It's a nice club to be in and the fact depreciation has (so far - let's see how that goes over the next few years...) been fairly benign.

Porsche911R said:

today, you really need to be buying into Lotus if you want feeling and new.

I do often ponder that, although for the whole rest of the time when you are not on track, most GT cars make a better compromise and are actually quite easy to live with.

I don't think I've been to a track this year and not looked (in admiration) at an Exige.

[Porsche911R]

Digga said:

Porsche911R said:

Best steering car I have owned was a Noble, 2nd best was my Exige. No Porkers would be close unless you do pre 89, but then those bring in other trates which are not that nice anyway.

Not sure why people piss about in heavy GT cars on track costing £2k a day when you can blat around in a Elise/exige and a set of tyres and pads lasts 10 tracks days and cost 50p to run.

Aside from the whole Porsche brand heritage (and not, for one minute to suggest Lotus does not also have heritage) you have the near mythical status of their GT cars. Up to the end of the 997.2 you could argue car were incredibly close to their real, racing cousins. Even the 991 GTs get some benefit from race tech.

It's a nice club to be in and the fact depreciation has (so far - let's see how that goes over the next few years...) been fairly benign.

Porsche911R said:

today, you really need to be buying into Lotus if you want feeling and new.

I do often ponder that, although for the whole rest of the time when you are not on track, most GT cars make a better compromise and are actually quite easy to live with.

I don't think I've been to a track this year and not looked (in admiration) at an Exige.

as I found out buying my dream GT3, I did not like it though ! and it lasted about 8 months, I spent 5 years in lotus and loved every minute.

only car which has come close is my 987.2 Spyder, and that cars the only reason I don't own another Elise.
The issue once you have owned a Noble or a Elise, you then think all cars feel st, hence My 75 car trying history !!!

On a forum where people should like driving, I find it odd not many people own drivers cars ! in fact people rave on about 981's etc and slag off 718 and it's comical because a 981 feels dead vs a 987 let alone an Elise.

People buy Porsche now as it's a cheap car to own, yes you need some money to buy into them, but as you say very cheap to own over all.
And yes people buy the badge also, people are not buying the drive , that's pretty clear bar a small %

the wrong people own GT cars now in the main, before they did not sell and when they did sell they would bring them back to the OPC the same day and say "these are too hard" and sell it back within a day :-)

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 8th August 09:09

[Digga]

I've never owned and Elise but drove the Mk1 at Oulton when it was launched and later the Mk2 111S on the road. Mk1 was a hoot - you really could take it by the scruff. Mk2 111S nearly killed me as I assumed it would not understeer... I now know the factory settings were dailed to attract a wider customer base and also that they could be tweeked very successfully. I like them both a great deal and I know a lot of people who have owned them and Exiges and loved them.

I do happen to love the way a GT3 feels on track. It's definitely not as easy as a Lotus, or as agile, but there is something about the way it handles that is very satisfying. Plus, there is absolutely nothing like a Mezger revving 4,000 to 8,000 rpm. Nothing. That was, by the way, what sold me on the 997 rather than 996 GT3 - the extra revs and the inlet plenum witchcraft.

[Porsche911R]

Digga said:

. Plus, there is absolutely nothing like a Mezger revving 4,000 to 8,000 rpm. Nothing. That was, by the way, what sold me on the 997 rather than 996 GT3 - the extra revs and the inlet plenum witchcraft.

the new 4.0 makes the Mezger fee meh imo.

[Kettmark]

Interesting to see the 996 gt3 rs on with Ashgoods has come back into the market after initially being sold straight away.
Anyone in here shed any light?

[Slippydiff]

Digga said:

I've never owned and Elise but drove the Mk1 at Oulton when it was launched and later the Mk2 111S on the road. Mk1 was a hoot - you really could take it by the scruff. Mk2 111S nearly killed me as I assumed it would not understeer... I now know the factory settings were dailed to attract a wider customer base and also that they could be tweeked very successfully. I like them both a great deal and I know a lot of people who have owned them and Exiges and loved them.

I do happen to love the way a GT3 feels on track. It's definitely not as easy as a Lotus, or as agile, but there is something about the way it handles that is very satisfying. Plus, there is absolutely nothing like a Mezger revving 4,000 to 8,000 rpm. Nothing. That was, by the way, what sold me on the 997 rather than 996 GT3 - the extra revs and the inlet plenum witchcraft.

Oh you can get that even in a Mk 1 996 GT3 Diggs, it doesn’t come cheap mind ...

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

the new 4.0 makes the Mezger fee meh imo.

Those toytown engines are ok, better off with the real deal though IMO.