992 Turbo S issues-Right to reject
Discussion
maz8062 said:
Mate, I’m giving you a hard time - don’t take it personally and I genuinely hope it all gets resolved - either way, and you carry on enjoying these high end cars.
For me it’s an eye opener, one that I hadn’t consciously thought of in the past - I will from now on, but hope I’m never in your position because it must be stressful.
Good luck and Nick, I’m out
None taken. You're entitled to an opinion. Thank you.For me it’s an eye opener, one that I hadn’t consciously thought of in the past - I will from now on, but hope I’m never in your position because it must be stressful.
Good luck and Nick, I’m out
So today I've received a written response from the DP, which advised that my case has been passed to the Porsche Interaction team at HQ, as any request to reject must be supported by the importer?
The DP has promised to update me again by Friday, with a timeline for resolution. The tone of the email indicates their wish to come to an amicable outcome.
The DP has promised to update me again by Friday, with a timeline for resolution. The tone of the email indicates their wish to come to an amicable outcome.
GT4RS said:
On what date did you submit your letter?
Since submitting your position in writing to the dealership have they contacted you verbally or in writing confirming they have acknowledged receipt of it?
Hi GT4RSSince submitting your position in writing to the dealership have they contacted you verbally or in writing confirming they have acknowledged receipt of it?
Our posts have crossed, but my email was sent on 11 April, requesting a resolution by 25 April. Their sales manager emailed me on 12 April, acknowledging my email and today, the DP emailed me to advise that my case has been passed to Porsche HQ and that he will be personally across it, moving forward.
Cheib said:
I think if they thought it was something straightforward the OPC would have got the car in ASAP as that potentially saves them a lot of money…of course if it comes in and they can’t fix it it makes things worse for them. As I posted toward the start of this thread OPC’s have flex in their service department work schedules because they have no idea what is going to show up on any car that comes in. Or indeed a car that arrives on a low loader that’s been recovered. They could definitely get his car in if they wanted to….
The fact the OPC is making the OP wait a month tells you they either don’t have faith they can fix it or they’ve gone straight to the “delay and frustrate” play book.
To be fair to the dealer, the car was booked in, before my decision to reject, which was made the following week. The delay in getting the car in, hastened my decision. Since receiving my rejection email, there's been no attempt by the dealer to bring forward the date. The fact the OPC is making the OP wait a month tells you they either don’t have faith they can fix it or they’ve gone straight to the “delay and frustrate” play book.
Iceblue said:
Can't understand why it needs to go to Porsche HQ, I rejected a BMW a few years ago admittedly in the first month of ownership but it was handled solely within the dealership they are the retailer who sold you the car.
Agreed to keep the car until the new replacement was delivered three months later.
My first thoughts about the referral to Porsche HQ, were exactly the same. My contract is with the dealer. I purposely haven't named the dealership, but I now understand they're not a franchise, but actually owned by Porsche GB. Maybe it's been referred upwards, as HQ may contribute towards costs?Agreed to keep the car until the new replacement was delivered three months later.
Edited by Iceblue on Wednesday 17th April 12:12
AyBee said:
funboxster said:
I'm not expecting my full purchase price back and never have.
What are you expecting? Is retail price acceptable? Your original post was asking about the likelihood of them taking c.£500-1,000 off what you paid.Jeremy-75qq8 said:
Mine went back to the dealer an hour after collection and was rejected on day 28.
Very different scenario. I wonder if this was a GT3RS whether the OP would be more inclined to give the dealer time to fix it...And no, even if I had a GT3RS, (not that I was ever interested in one) I'd still reject. If a product( I deliberately keep using this term) is not of satisfactory quality, then I want rid. If a product works, I keep them.
Little did I realise, when I started this thread, that there would be nearly 200 posts and I thank you all for your input.
I note over the last couple of pages some differing opinion, some supportive, others not. That's completely fine. I made it clear in the original post, that I have broad shoulders and am happy to hear from people who disagree with my decision.
For those of you who haven't read through all the posts (and that's understandable!), I thought I could quickly summarise again.
I have had many cars over the years and in the main, I've experienced no issues. amongst others and over the last ten years, 2 Boxsters, 3 MINI Cooper S'(my wife's), Aston Martin DB11 and my current other car, AUDI RS3. These were/are all fault free during ownership, which is usually 2-3 years from new. As advised before, I also had a McLaren 570GT bought new and the problems started from about month 7 onwards, in that it wouldn't start, seats wouldn't move back and forward, navigation problems, to name a few. In the end, I rejected it even though the initial 6 month period had passed and got back what I paid for it, less £20k for 5k miles and one year old by then, so they applied a £4 per mile allowance.
The chassis system fault both times also says adapted driving permitted, but the manual just says, refer to dealer. The service docket received on the first fault states: C125193-Roll stabilisation: system FAILURE and C104400-Basic setting active faults stored, calibration required and a cost of £285, so I'm guessing a sensor? There are no parts listed, so have they replaced anything? Or just a software reset, hence it's returned?
I am not having buyer's remorse. It's a wonderful car to drive, I've wanted one for ages, but I had to make a decision, keep or reject? You may not agree with my decision and that's fine, we all would look at this differently.
I did email the DP again yesterday, stating that the car has not been used since 2 April, is not available to me and your service dept can't look at it for a month and I also sent a picture of the mileage 2497. His response was, I'll pass your email to the team looking into your case!
He also promised to come back today with an update, which so far, I haven't received, but he has 3 hours yet, TBF.
I note over the last couple of pages some differing opinion, some supportive, others not. That's completely fine. I made it clear in the original post, that I have broad shoulders and am happy to hear from people who disagree with my decision.
For those of you who haven't read through all the posts (and that's understandable!), I thought I could quickly summarise again.
I have had many cars over the years and in the main, I've experienced no issues. amongst others and over the last ten years, 2 Boxsters, 3 MINI Cooper S'(my wife's), Aston Martin DB11 and my current other car, AUDI RS3. These were/are all fault free during ownership, which is usually 2-3 years from new. As advised before, I also had a McLaren 570GT bought new and the problems started from about month 7 onwards, in that it wouldn't start, seats wouldn't move back and forward, navigation problems, to name a few. In the end, I rejected it even though the initial 6 month period had passed and got back what I paid for it, less £20k for 5k miles and one year old by then, so they applied a £4 per mile allowance.
The chassis system fault both times also says adapted driving permitted, but the manual just says, refer to dealer. The service docket received on the first fault states: C125193-Roll stabilisation: system FAILURE and C104400-Basic setting active faults stored, calibration required and a cost of £285, so I'm guessing a sensor? There are no parts listed, so have they replaced anything? Or just a software reset, hence it's returned?
I am not having buyer's remorse. It's a wonderful car to drive, I've wanted one for ages, but I had to make a decision, keep or reject? You may not agree with my decision and that's fine, we all would look at this differently.
I did email the DP again yesterday, stating that the car has not been used since 2 April, is not available to me and your service dept can't look at it for a month and I also sent a picture of the mileage 2497. His response was, I'll pass your email to the team looking into your case!
He also promised to come back today with an update, which so far, I haven't received, but he has 3 hours yet, TBF.
I did email the DP again on Thursday, stating that the car has not been used since 2 April, is not available to me and your service dept can't look at it for a month and I also sent a picture of the mileage 2497. His response was, I'll pass your email to the team looking into your case!
He has previously promised in writing to come back yesterday with an update, which, so far I haven't received. I'll see what happens on Monday.
I've been doing more research on the CRA 2015 and came across a Department fro Business, Innovation and Skills document entitled CRA Goods-Guidance for Business.
The section under final right to reject-Making a deduction for use (pages 50-53) is interesting and relating to motor vehicles, clearly states- Note that the deduction must be calculated based on the use the consumer had from the goods, ie mileage and NOT the second-hand value of the goods. They also have to justify the deduction they offer, which I don't have to accept. That would appear to remove the dealer's opportunity to build in depreciation.
He has previously promised in writing to come back yesterday with an update, which, so far I haven't received. I'll see what happens on Monday.
I've been doing more research on the CRA 2015 and came across a Department fro Business, Innovation and Skills document entitled CRA Goods-Guidance for Business.
The section under final right to reject-Making a deduction for use (pages 50-53) is interesting and relating to motor vehicles, clearly states- Note that the deduction must be calculated based on the use the consumer had from the goods, ie mileage and NOT the second-hand value of the goods. They also have to justify the deduction they offer, which I don't have to accept. That would appear to remove the dealer's opportunity to build in depreciation.
ChrisW. said:
It may be that if the OPC were to make you an offer based on usage which you could not agree, were this to be taken to court to be settled and the compensation judged to be less generous than the offer originally made by the OPC and refused by yourself, then you could be liable for their costs.
As in the recent Hugh Grant / Mirror ? phone hacking case .... where Grant accepted an offer because he couldn't afford the potential costs, even though he wanted judgement in his favour ??
Yes, I accept that, so let the bartering begin. The sales manager at the OPC has left a message to ring him this morning, so I'm guessing they want me to come in for a meeting. As in the recent Hugh Grant / Mirror ? phone hacking case .... where Grant accepted an offer because he couldn't afford the potential costs, even though he wanted judgement in his favour ??
15HN said:
What pence per mile figure did they agree on for usage?
As per my post above, all will be revealed, once money in my account. The SM is waiting for legal to sign off, but I must assume he wouldn't be ringing me, without having authority.I confirmed our conversation back to him the same day in writing.
I said it before in an earlier post, but I'm genuinely blown away with the now over 300 responses to my original.
Free speech is alive and kicking throughout this post.
I intend to reply in full to some generalised comments that have been made, as to how underhand I've been, I've played a blinder, I've shafted the dealer and so on, without perhaps thinking through what they would do, if faced with this position and what decision to to make.
I genuinely didn't put up the post, on the possibility the OPC viewed it and felt pressured by replies to accept rejection. As if a massive manufacturer like Porsche would? I was just looking for advice.
The car is being collected on Thursday (although I did offer to take it to them) and once the money is in my account, I will post again.
Free speech is alive and kicking throughout this post.
I intend to reply in full to some generalised comments that have been made, as to how underhand I've been, I've played a blinder, I've shafted the dealer and so on, without perhaps thinking through what they would do, if faced with this position and what decision to to make.
I genuinely didn't put up the post, on the possibility the OPC viewed it and felt pressured by replies to accept rejection. As if a massive manufacturer like Porsche would? I was just looking for advice.
The car is being collected on Thursday (although I did offer to take it to them) and once the money is in my account, I will post again.
So, the car was collected this morning and now I wait and hope that the dealer doesn't mess me around with payment. The driver accepted the car is in pristine condition. They're telling me it will be a couple of days, as a couple of sign offs are required, so realistically with the bank holiday coming, I'll probably get it early next week.
Once I get the money, I'll respond again.
Once I get the money, I'll respond again.
And so, a postscript to my OP in mid April, which generated a hell of a lot of responses.
I know that some didn't agree with my decision to reject the car, but I would counter by saying, if it was your new nigh on £200k car and these faults started occurring within the first month(s), with a month's wait before they could look at it, what decision would you make? Put up with it, keep your fingers crossed it doesn't come back or decide to reject?
The CRA 2015 is biased in the customer's favour for the first 6 months. The pendulum swings back in the seller's favour after that and the consumer has to prove the fault was there from the beginning (as I understand it)
The dealer did accept rejection, based on the fact the car became faulty in the first 30 days and that they'd had one chance to fix it.(Their words)
They agreed to refund me the purchase price of the car, less 45ppm for mileage covered, so £900 deducted. Again, you might not agree with this, but they can deduct an allowance for usage, which seems reasonable.
The CRA is poor in this respect, with little guidance, but surely the fairest way is based on mileage and the HMRC figure. Anyway, based on the CRA government guide for business that I read, they can't deduct depreciation.
I never had buyer's remorse, despite what some said. I planned to keep it for two years, but I lost complete confidence in the car and the brand.
Thanks to those who pm'd directly with their input. Much appreciated.
I know that some didn't agree with my decision to reject the car, but I would counter by saying, if it was your new nigh on £200k car and these faults started occurring within the first month(s), with a month's wait before they could look at it, what decision would you make? Put up with it, keep your fingers crossed it doesn't come back or decide to reject?
The CRA 2015 is biased in the customer's favour for the first 6 months. The pendulum swings back in the seller's favour after that and the consumer has to prove the fault was there from the beginning (as I understand it)
The dealer did accept rejection, based on the fact the car became faulty in the first 30 days and that they'd had one chance to fix it.(Their words)
They agreed to refund me the purchase price of the car, less 45ppm for mileage covered, so £900 deducted. Again, you might not agree with this, but they can deduct an allowance for usage, which seems reasonable.
The CRA is poor in this respect, with little guidance, but surely the fairest way is based on mileage and the HMRC figure. Anyway, based on the CRA government guide for business that I read, they can't deduct depreciation.
I never had buyer's remorse, despite what some said. I planned to keep it for two years, but I lost complete confidence in the car and the brand.
Thanks to those who pm'd directly with their input. Much appreciated.
maz8062 said:
FMOB said:
I'm not sure why you are struggling with this, the same legislation applies irrespective of what you are buying as a consumer. It applies to a £50 camera or a £200k car but the product has to be faulty and the manufacturer gets one chance to fix it.
If you think it shouldn't apply then feel free to purchase through a business then see how few rights you have.
I struggle with it because I view it that the OP has twice used a product extensively, an expensive product; enjoyed it, thrashed it and not paid for it. Further, that same product has devalued significantly as a result of the op’s use but someone else, a corporate, has to foot that bill even though the op would have been offered other remedial action to help. A full refund sans £900 seems drastic, unfair and unsustainable.If you think it shouldn't apply then feel free to purchase through a business then see how few rights you have.
Edited by FMOB on Friday 10th May 19:46
I’ll give you an example: a 992 Turbo S could be rented or hired for £650 per day plus a £5k deposit. For 6 months it would cost circa £100k assuming one could negotiate a discount, £117k if not. The op has had the usage for £900. That is where I struggle.
Yes, I understand it is the law and it’s an expensive product, and the manufacturer should make sure the things work, but being one that tinkers a lot on my cars using dealer grade diagnostic tools, I know these cars are very complicated and my cars are 2007 and 2006 tech. Solutions are always found, that’s why they offer warranties, but if people could just reject it after use within 6 months, I just don’t get it, unless one doesn’t want the car anymore in which case they should cover the cost of their usage of it.
Anyway, I’ve been a lone voice against in this drama, but we all know that one can never win an argument on the internet - we just all have opinions.
I don't buy an expensive supercar, on the hope I can reject it asap, get my money back and trial the next toy, at no or minimal expense. Before the TS, I had a DB11, for five years. Why five years? Because it never missed a beat. I only moved it on, because it was then 7 years old, was concerned about possible big repair bills on the way and the opportunity to buy the TS came up.
The McLaren I rejected was off the road for two of the nine months I owned it. FYI, I accepted a £20k hit, which was basically the cost of the specced extras. They refunded the basic price to me.
I was really gutted when the TS went wrong in month one and I could have rejected it then and got all my money back, but thought no, let's give the OPC a chance. This was before they told me one month's wait to look at it. The seeds of doubt were then sown. When it went wrong again, in month four, with the same problem and one month wait time again, my head then overruled my heart and the TS became a faulty product, not a complex car, that i should accept will go wrong.
I never started this post to put one over the OPC. I was just looking for advice on whether there was guidance anywhere on what would be reasonable to expect as a deduction for wear and tear/mileage.
Let's just agree to disagree.
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