Considering New Boxster as only car - 4Cyl Refresh Options?
Discussion
ORD said:
Short answer is 'No'. It will be turbocharged and aimed at fuel efficiency (at least on the official cycle if not in real life). It will also be all about mid-range shove.
.
The short answer might well be yes. A Leon Cupra has a flat torque curve all the way to 5600rpm and only starts falling after that. Peak power is maintained to 6500. In a Cayman S the torque curve falls from 5800. Sure peak power is maintained longer but it's pretty flat from 6000. Given that a Cupra "only" the same power as the current non-S and I would expect the turbo 4s to have more power that the present cars - I would expect the Porsches to be a bit more top endy than a Cupra. So there is no reason why you should lose more than a few hundred revs at the top end - in exchange for a much flatter torque curve. .
bcr5784 said:
The short answer might well be yes. A Leon Cupra has a flat torque curve all the way to 5600rpm and only starts falling after that. Peak power is maintained to 6500. In a Cayman S the torque curve falls from 5800. Sure peak power is maintained longer but it's pretty flat from 6000. Given that a Cupra "only" the same power as the current non-S and I would expect the turbo 4s to have more power that the present cars - I would expect the Porsches to be a bit more top endy than a Cupra. So there is no reason why you should lose more than a few hundred revs at the top end - in exchange for a much flatter torque curve.
Nobody in their right might wants a huge flat torque 'curve' in a sports car. That is great on a motorway but dull as hell for all other driving. ORD said:
Nobody in their right might wants a huge flat torque 'curve' in a sports car. That is great on a motorway but dull as hell for all other driving.
Oddly enough that is EXACTLY what most wanted/praised back in the days of the E-type and most other sports cars of the same era. It's genuinely confusing. I wonder what roads these people drive on. My Cayman S with it's relatively peaky power still has far too much pace to be used fully except in a few limited circumstances. Adding more mid-range torque would make it utterly frustrating to drive - too much speed, too easily.
ORD said:
It's genuinely confusing. I wonder what roads these people drive on. My Cayman S with it's relatively peaky power still has far too much pace to be used fully except in a few limited circumstances. Adding more mid-range torque would make it utterly frustrating to drive - too much speed, too easily.
I agree that (My) Cayman S also has more power than I need the vast majority of the time. Unfortunately that is not true of the torque. If my torque curve matched that of the Cupra R, I wouldn't say that. There would still be valid debate to be had over throttle response,acoustics and probably smoothness. But I probably wouldn't have purchased an S at all (rather than a "2.7") if it had the power curve of a Cupra R, and those other characteristics of the flat 6.Frankly, I can see no merit (and considerable frustration) in the dip in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 that all Caymans and Boxsters suffer from.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 19th June 22:38
bcr5784 said:
I agree that (My) Cayman S also has more power than I need the vast majority of the time. Unfortunately that is not true of the torque. If my torque curve matched that of the Cupra R, I wouldn't say that. There would still be valid debate to be had over throttle response,acoustics and probably smoothness. But I probably wouldn't have purchased an S at all (rather than a "2.7") if it had the power curve of a Cupra R, and those other characteristics of the flat 6.
Frankly, I can see no merit (and considerable frustration) in the dip in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 that all Caymans and Boxsters suffer from.
Torque is irrelevant. You must mean that it has too little power for your tastes at the rev range that you identify. But I just can't see it - if you want to accelerate hard, just use a lower gear; if you want to accelerate moderately, the modest power in the current gear is adequate.Frankly, I can see no merit (and considerable frustration) in the dip in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 that all Caymans and Boxsters suffer from.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 19th June 22:38
Wide open throttle at 4000 revs with the S engine very quickly becomes silly on the road. An over-enthusiastic overtake and you are into 'Here - take my licence' territory. More torque would just mean you could do the same thing in a higher gear, so with less noise
Missing out, in my view.bcr5784 said:
I agree that (My) Cayman S also has more power than I need the vast majority of the time. Unfortunately that is not true of the torque. If my torque curve matched that of the Cupra R, I wouldn't say that. There would still be valid debate to be had over throttle response,acoustics and probably smoothness. But I probably wouldn't have purchased an S at all (rather than a "2.7") if it had the power curve of a Cupra R, and those other characteristics of the flat 6.
Frankly, I can see no merit (and considerable frustration) in the dip in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 that all Caymans and Boxsters suffer from.
Fella, you need to research the relationship between torque and bhp. You are getting confused. Bhp is calculated from the torque figure, they are intrinsically linked.Frankly, I can see no merit (and considerable frustration) in the dip in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 that all Caymans and Boxsters suffer from.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 19th June 22:38
What you seem to be saying is that you want max torque at low revs. Like a diesel.
You should buy a diesel.
mollytherocker said:
Fella, you need to research the relationship between torque and bhp. You are getting confused. Bhp is calculated from the torque figure, they are intrinsically linked.
What you seem to be saying is that you want max torque at low revs. Like a diesel.
You should buy a diesel.
Having spent many hours on the dyno with our race engines, I think I have done all the research I need to understand the basics. Power and torque are intrinsically linked - Horsepower = 2*pi*revs*torque(in foot pounds)/33000. Ie a flat torque curve gives a linearly rising power curve. Anyone who seriously WANTS a dip in the middle of the torque curve needs their head examining. What you seem to be saying is that you want max torque at low revs. Like a diesel.
You should buy a diesel.
The problem, as I have said before, is that if you are cruising behind someone at about 50 in third you are in the middle of the dip in the torque curve so when you put your foot down to overtake the car feels a bit flat. You could of course as moose suggests "rev the snot out it" - but not everyone (and certainly not me) wants to do that ALL the time.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 20th June 08:52
bcr5784 said:
They are intrinsically linked - Horsepower = 2*pi*revs*torque(in foot pounds)/33000. Ie a flat torque curve gives a linearly rising power curve. Anyone who seriously WANTS a dip in the middle of the torque curve needs their head examining.
I dont want a dip! And I dont want a big early peak either.I want a smooth linear rising power that peaks in a crescendo of noise and acceleration.
This is not only exciting, it means that you have to work at it and make sure you are in the right gear at all times.
Effort = reward.
Now I am confused.
If the dip in torque isn't big enough to counteract the increase in revs, power still increases - so the actual delivery is not 'flat'; it is still increasing.
Your complaint can only be about lack of power, as it is power that accelerates the car.
3rd at 50mph provides plenty of acceleration in my experience. If you want crazy acceleration, us crazy revs
Back in the real world, I learn yesterday that there is practically nothing in it in terms of peak acceleration between my car and a DBS V12 up to 60mph (after which it was a bit embarrassing for me), which was nice
If the dip in torque isn't big enough to counteract the increase in revs, power still increases - so the actual delivery is not 'flat'; it is still increasing.
Your complaint can only be about lack of power, as it is power that accelerates the car.
3rd at 50mph provides plenty of acceleration in my experience. If you want crazy acceleration, us crazy revs
Back in the real world, I learn yesterday that there is practically nothing in it in terms of peak acceleration between my car and a DBS V12 up to 60mph (after which it was a bit embarrassing for me), which was nice
mollytherocker said:
I dont want a dip! And I dont want a big early peak either.
I want a smooth linear rising power that peaks in a crescendo of noise and acceleration.
This is not only exciting, it means that you have to work at it and make sure you are in the right gear at all times.
Effort = reward.
But you HAVE got a dip and you HAVEN'T got smooth linear rising power as a result! If you had a flat torque curve you WOULD have smooth linear rising power. If you want a lack of low end torque so you HAVE to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere OK - but not me.I want a smooth linear rising power that peaks in a crescendo of noise and acceleration.
This is not only exciting, it means that you have to work at it and make sure you are in the right gear at all times.
Effort = reward.
bcr5784 said:
But you HAVE got a dip and you HAVEN'T got smooth linear rising power as a result! If you had a flat torque curve you WOULD have smooth linear rising power. If you want a lack of low end torque so you HAVE to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere OK - but not me.
No, I havent got 'a dip'. The torque on my 993 is fairly flat and starts rising at about 3500 it then starts dropping off at 6000.Over the whole rev range, the PS rises in an almost straight line.
This is the power delivery I like. My daily diesel Insignia has nothing then hits a big peak suddenly at about 2500 revs then tails off. Thats great for cruising about and doing 30k a year.
But that is rubbish in a sports car.
mollytherocker said:
No, I havent got 'a dip'. The torque on my 993 is fairly flat and starts rising at about 3500 it then starts dropping off at 6000.
Over the whole rev range, the PS rises in an almost straight line.
This is the power delivery I like. My daily diesel Insignia has nothing then hits a big peak suddenly at about 2500 revs then tails off. Thats great for cruising about and doing 30k a year.
But that is rubbish in a sports car.
I assumed you have a Cayster. This thread is about Caysters! See below. There is a noticeable dip in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 revs, which is very noticeable when you drive the car.Over the whole rev range, the PS rises in an almost straight line.
This is the power delivery I like. My daily diesel Insignia has nothing then hits a big peak suddenly at about 2500 revs then tails off. Thats great for cruising about and doing 30k a year.
But that is rubbish in a sports car.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 20th June 09:33
mollytherocker said:
To be fair, thats only 20nm. No doubt its about emissions etc.
If it bothers you so much, you can get that smoothed out.
And if I could, I would have a virtually flat torque curve from 2500 to 5800 - just like a turbo could be. That is why I don't see that the antipathy to turbos on the basis of the shape of the torque curve they produce.If it bothers you so much, you can get that smoothed out.
bcr5784 said:
mollytherocker said:
To be fair, thats only 20nm. No doubt its about emissions etc.
If it bothers you so much, you can get that smoothed out.
And if I could, I would have a virtually flat torque curve from 2500 to 5800 - just like a turbo could be. That is why I don't see that the antipathy to turbos on the basis of the shape of the torque curve they produce.If it bothers you so much, you can get that smoothed out.
I see what you want and I have no doubt it is what most new Porsche buyers want.
mollytherocker said:
I think that a number of people have tried to explain it to you now. I get that you dont get it.
I see what you want and I have no doubt it is what most new Porsche buyers want.
I understand perfectly well, but I think some are dismissing turbos on SOME grounds that are simply unknown at this stage and are, in some cases simply misinformed. Ferrari seem to have done a pretty good job with the 488. I see what you want and I have no doubt it is what most new Porsche buyers want.
Gassing Station | Boxster/Cayman | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff